3364111 net Pram/ling* in learliament. I. THE IRISH 1011(1144:11.

The House of Commons was called, over on Monday, on the motion of Lord JUIIN FtossELL. The attendance of Members was uncom- monly large. The galleries were opened at six o'clock ; and almost immediately afterwards, Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose to bring forward his motion on the sub. ject of the Irish Church. He commenced his speech by referring to the Address to the Crown which the House of Commons adopted on the 22d of April 1834, as an amendment to Mr. O'Connell's motion for a Committee to inquire into the means by which the union with Ireland had been effected, and the expediency of continuing it. He contended, that by the terms of that Address, the Legislature was solemnly bound to remove all " just causes of complaint, and promote all well-considered measures of improvement;" and he had then come before the House to represent what he considered a "just cause of complaint " and to induce the House, if possible, to take a step to obtain a " well .considered measure of improvement." He considered that the Legislature had no right to insist on an adherence to the Union, unless it was prepared to do ample justice to Ireland. He described the miserable and lawless condition into' which the mass of the Irish population bad fallen, in spite of all the means hitherto used for its pacification and the maintenance of the rights of property. He briefly detailed those measures, from the reign of Edward the First to the concession of Catholic Emancipation ; and pointed out the cruelty and injustice of much that had been done by the dominant party to the great body of the people. Whenever any concession had been made, it was, as Lord Grenville had truly remarked. the result, not of kind- ness, but of necessity. He now called upon the House to legislate in a different spiiit, to make the present era celebrated for its justice and impartiality to Ireland. He was of opinion that an Established Church tended to promote religion ; and further, that in England a majority of the people were attached to the Establishment. But he called upon the House to say whether the case were not different in Ireland—whether in that country the Establishment did tend to pro- mote religion and the good order of society? He agreed with Paley (whose words be (iuoted) that the " authority of a Church Establish- ment was founded in its utility;" and that it should not be made a political engine, but promoted on the single ground of its tendency to preserve and communicate religious knowledge. Now he would ask, whether the religious instruction of the people of Ireland had been promoted by the revenues appropriated to the Estatlished Church of that country ? He would consider in the first place what were the revenues of the Irish Church in former times, compared with what they were now. It appeared from a letter wiitten by Archbishop King to Archbishop Wake, dated 29th March 1716, that there were then GOO beneficed clergymen in Ireland; of whom scarcely 200 had 100/. per annum, and that the total revenue of the Church was not more than 110,000/. per annum. Now the present revenues of the Irish Church, according to Mr. Ward's calculation last year, amounted to 791,721/. Hurl there been an increase in the number of conversions to the Protestant religion, corresponding with this enormous increase in the revenues of the Church ? The result had been too much the reverse. The clergy considered themselves as part of a large political, rather than a spiritual body. Their character and pursuits were very different from those of the English Clergy. One of them, as he had been informed by a reverend correspondent, lately considered himself aggrieved because he was deprived of his benefice for persisting in holding a commission in a Yeomanry corps. He quoted Tighe's History of Kilkenny, Stewart's History of Armagh, and other works of authority, to show the comparative numbers of the Protestants and Catholics in several parts of Ireland, and the decrease of the former. It appeared that in 1731 the number of Protestant families in Kilkenny was 1055; but in 1800 only 941, although the popu- lation of the country during the same period had increased from 42,108 souls to 108,000. In Armagh, sixty years ago, the Pro- testants were as two to one to the Catholics; now the Catholics are as three to one to the Protestants. In 1731, there were in Till- lamore 64 Protestants to 613 Catholics; but in 1818 there were only five Protestants to 2455 Catholics. The best computation he had seen, made the total number of Protestant Episcopalians in Ireland 750,000; and of these 400,000 were in Armagh. In Armagh, however, the Catholics were seven or eight times as numerous us the Protestants ; and in other parts of the country the disproportion was very much greater. He read an account of the dioceses of Ardfert, Down, Dromore, Kildare, Kilfetiora, Killuloe, Leigblin, Lismore, Meath, and Waterford ; from which it appeared that in these ten dioceses the Pro- testant Episcopalians numbered 166,492, the Catholics 1,732,452, the Presbyterians 162,184, and the other Protestant Dissenters 6430. He would now state the number of Protestant Episcopalians, the number of Catholics, and the amount of revenue held by the Church in several places in Ireland : be lad taken the places at random from a return with which be had been furnished. In the parish of Taghmon, the revenue of the Church was 4961.; the Catholics 2920 in number, the Protes- tants 133: in Dunleen, the revenue was 1501.; Protestants 15.9, Catholics 1460: in Moyleary, revenue 2031.; Protestants 13, Catholics 1148: in Cuppog, revenue 120!.; Protestants 7, Catholics 662: in C.arrickbogget, revenue 57!.; Protestants none, Catholics 332: in Craig, revenue 440/. ; Protestants 63, Catholics 4779. These num- bers showed that a large proportion of the revenues of the Church were raised for the spiritual instruction of a very small part of the population. And he differed entirely from those who thought that the Catholic could be converted by preaching crusades against their religion, or aug- menting the number of churches and glebes. He lamented the violent spirit of discord which had grown up between the protestant and Catholic clergy, and the resistance to the payment of tithes. It was admitted that all the efforts made to subdue that resistance bad been tin- availing. He was convinced that the only chance remaining for pacify- ing Ireland was to reform the Church, in such a way as to give adequate spiritual instruction to the Protestants and no more, applying the sur- plus in some way by which the moral and religious instruction of the whole people should be advanced. With the view of effecting such an alteration he should propose, "That this House resolve itself into a Committeiof the whole House, to consider of the Temporalities of the

Church of Irehind." If that motion were carried, he should move in Committee, " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that any stir. plus which may remain after fully providing for the spiritual instruction of the members of the Established Church in Ireland, ought to be ap- plied to the general education of all classes of Christians." On that resolution being reported, he would propose an address to the Crown, beseeching his Majesty to take measures to carry that resolu-

tion into effect. In this way, there would be no difficulty as to the

patronage of the Crown. It had been decided by the lste Speaker, when the Church Temporalities Act was under discussiin, that the bill might be read a second time, arid then a special message might be sent by his Majesty, authorizing the House to deal with tl:e patronage of the Crown. Lord John Russell then proceeded to remind Sir Robert Peel, that though he had in his address to his constituents at Tamworth, and subsequently, avowed in the most distinct terins his resolution not to agree to the alienation of any portion of Church pro- perty to any other than strictly Protestant purposes, yet he had spoken in equally decided terms in opposition to Catholic emancipation, and notwithstanding, finding himself in a minority of only six, had deter- mined to carry the Catholic question himself. Lord John could not tell whether Sir Robert would pursue a similar course should he be in a minority on this question ; but he insisted upon the necessity of the House coining to an immediate decision of it. There was no occasion to wait for the full report of the Commissioners ;- for Sir Robert Peel had declared positively, that whatever might be the nature and contents of that report, he would not give up the principle of confining the ap- plication of Church property to strictly Protestant purposes. The report therefore would not alter the determination of Ministers ; and in the meanwhile, it was acknowledged to be urgently necessary that the grand principle should be affirmed or repudiated by the Legislature.

"It is for the advantage of every one—for the advantage of this country, for the advantage of Ireland, and indeed for the general advantage of the empire, that there should be on this great and vital question an Administration in har- mony with the House of Commons, acting accordion to its sense. And if the right honourable gentleman has the confidence of the House, or if his opinions and the opinions of those acting with him being adverse he is prepared to take the course he took on a former occasion—in either case, it is far better that at once we should come to some decision, and not be voting Supplies, and going on night after night, and week after week, without knowing whether the Ministers of the Crown do enjoy the confidence of the House on this great ques- tion, or do not. Well, then, Sir, I think that what I have said will be consi- dered a sufficient answer to any argument that may be drawn from the fact of the report of the Commission not being yet on the table of the House. The honourable gentlemen opposite may say that it is inconsistent thus to bring for- ward a motion on this subject without the report being before us, and they are quite welcome of they please to throw those taunts upon us : but I think it sufficient to state in reply, that the state of the question has been altered—that it is a question no longer open ; on the contrary, it is one on which a decided opinion has been formed by the honourable gentlemen on the other side of the house; and that decided opinion having been pronounced, it is quite necessary that we should ask whether or no the principle which we propose—whether the appropriation of the revenue of the Church of Ireland, or any part of it, to uses by which the people of Ireland generally can be benefited—will secure the sanc- tion of the House."

Lord John proceeded to explain in what manner he should wish to dispose of the surplus. He would propose to put it under the control of the National Board of Education for Ireland, in order that children of all sects and persuasions might be benefited by it. He dwelt on the advantages of educating the poor Irish in such a way as not to interfere with their religious faith being desirous, in the words of the Bishop of Clonfert, since he could not make the Irish good Protestants, to make them "good Catholics, good citizens, good any thing." He con- tended that the principle of his proposed appropriation of the surplus Church property was in effect sanctioned by those who consented to a new appropriation of Bishops' revenues—a redistribution of Church property. By so doing, they admitted the right of the State to inter- fere with it ; and this was the main distinction between public and pri- vate property. He could not understand how they who maintained that Church property was as sacred as private property, could possibly admit the right to redistribute the former. They mixed up two principles and produced an absurdity. He would not, however, be induced to discuss the question of the right of State to alter the appropriation of Church property—he would not plunge into that Serbonian bog. Lord John concluded by again declaring his opinion that an Esta- blishment should be supported for the benefit of all ; and earnestly calling upon the House to give peace to Ireland, and render the empire invulnerable, by sanctioning the principle for which he con- tended, and doing away the injustice of compelling a people to pay for the support of a religion from which they derived no benefit.

Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL avowed his own willingness and that of his colleagues to remove every blemish from the face of the Church of

Ireland. They felt as deeply as the Opposition, when the name of Rathcormac was mentioned. But the real question was not that which had been ostensibly put forward. It was in fact intended to do that indirectly which Lord John Russell dared not do directly—to remove the present Ministers. The Opposition dared not propose a vote of want of confidence, so they took this mode of dealing a blow at Minis- ters. lie regretted to see the Whig party—no it was only a section of the Whig party—joining with Mr. O'Connell and others, who had attacked the Whigs when in office, in every possible way. Upon whom could Lord John Russell rely for support, after he had displaced the present Ministry, if not upon Mr. O'Connell—he who had proposed to Lord Althorp to mitigate the burdens of the country by striking off one per cent, from the interest of the National Debt ? Was the Go- vernor of the Bank placed in his present situation to act in unison with men who professed such principles ? The fact was, that Lord John Russell and his friends had some personal dislike to the men who now held office. All the measures of the present Ministry had been re- ceived with approbation. (Cries of "Oh, oh 1") There was the Tithe Bill and the Dissenters' Marriage Bill, both admitted to be better than the measures of the late Ministry. He was desirous of removing the defects of the Irish Church, but would meet the present motion with a direct negative. He might move the previous question, or a counter resolution. but he thought the most manly way of dealing with the motion was to negative it directly. Mr. WARD complained that Sir Edward Knatchbull had avoided he

main question, and nidulg.ed in a testis of 1 etty personalities. lie uad talked of any thing but the Irish Chinch, and had negatived the queer- tion without discussing it. Mr. iVard could not but think that sueb a proceeding was the reverse of what the House had a right to expect from a Minister of the Crown rising at the commencement of suck a discussion as this. After alluding to the circumstances under which he pressed his motion in the last session, which was thought impolitic at the time, but which be did with the view to put an end to the uncer- tainty which prevailed as to the opinions of the Government on so great a question, Mr. Ward proceeded to argue, that whoever voted with Lord John Russell on this motion, thereby acknowledged the in- herent right of the Legislature to deal with all corporate property, civil or ecclesiastical, in such a manner as the welfare of the community might require. If this principle were not acknowledged, there would be a bar to all future reforms in the Municipalities, Universities, and other institutions. The right to deal with Church property rested on precisely the same principle as the right to deal with Corporations. He congratulated the country on the change that had taken place in public opinion on this subject, since the time when Mr. Burke de- nounced the man who denied the inviolability of Church property, as a " man of cold heart and muddy understanding ! one of the new light and reason philosophers ; a wretch whose sophistry not the syllogism of the logician, but the lash of the executioner should refute !" lie thanked Heeven no one would now venture in such terms as these to stigmatize those who differed with him on the most difficult questions that a Legislature was called on to determine. Mr. Ward then pro- ceeded to explain the difference between that description of property with which the State may and that with which it cannot with justice interfere; for he could not altogether avoid the Serbonian hog alluded to by Lord John Russell. He quoted the opinions of Muckintost,, Warburton, Paley, Hallam, Lord Brougham. and Bishop Watson, to prove the right of the State to interfere with Ecclesiastical property. Bacon said, " As the realm once gave tithes to the Church, so the realm, since again, bath given tithes away from the Church to the King." The same doctrine had been upheld by Senior, in his recent pamphlet on National Property ; by the writer of an article on " Church Property " in the Edinburgh Review ; most distinctly by Earl Grey; and lastly, as he would maintaiu, by Sir Robert Peel him- self; who had advocated a different and better distribution of Eedesi. astical funds. Mr. Ward went on to give some details from his speech of last year relative to the numbers of the different sects in Ireland, the amount of the regular Army and Police force there, with some particulars of the reveme derived from glebes and other sources. He contended that the tithe commutation proposed by Ministers would be utterly unavailing towards the pacification of In land. He asked those who talked of the tyranny of foreign despots, what cffect they might suppose would be produced by Mr. O'Cotinell's eloquent recital of the wrongs of Ireland. lie read passages from Burke, and also from a letter attributed to the Marquis of Anglesea, in favour of adopting conciliatory measures towards Ireland. Under the present state of things, was it really surprisiug that multitudes in Ireland should deter- mine to throw off the yoke imposed on them by the Church, on the first favourable opportunity ? There was no such injustice to be met with on the Continent, or in America, as the British Government maintained in Ireland. He contended that the articles of the Union, so far from justifying the maintenance of the Established Church, countenanced the opinion that it was intended to secure the doctrines and discipline, not the temporalities of the Church, from future inter- ference. If they reformed the Irish Church, they might reduce the standing army pan i passe ; for the collection of the tithes was the prin- cipal occupation of that army. He read a statement of the military force kept up in the various British Colonies, and showed that tbe army of Ireland was out of all proportion to that maintained elsewhere. If the rights conceded to Canada, and Hanover, and the minor portions of the empire, were allowed to the Irish, there would be no need of so vast a force. The Legislature had done the people of Ireland right in every point but one— Let it, however, be remembered, that their power to withhold that one point had diminished in proportion as the other rights of the people of Ireland had been re- stored to them. They hail given the Catholics political freedom; how was it to be expected that they would not exercise that power for the attainment of religions freerlmn ? He was by no means desirous of rendering the Establishment ot Ire. land Catholic. The Catholics themselves preferred the Voluntary principle. But what he wished was, to see a different application of a large portion of the revenues of the present Establishment. It was ii"t a trifling measure that would be sufficient ; all must be done that ought to be done. When once the principle of concession was admitted, there ought to be no limit to concession but that which justice prescribed. But why should he for a moment anticipate that such would not be the case? Why should he for a moment believe that the House of Commons would not do the Irish people the justice to which they were entitled ? He once more warned those who thought timid the required concessions would he dangerous to the Church Establishment of this country, not to fight the battles of the English Church upon Iti:h ground. They had a great deal in their power as respected the Protestaot Establishment of England. They had not, they- never had, and they never could have a great deal in their power as respected the Protestant Establishment of Ireland. Four fifths of the population of Ireland were anxiously expecting justice. Ile sincerely hoped and believed, that by the decision of that night they would not be disappointed : on the cowary, he sincerely hoped and believed that the decision of that night would hold out the expectation of measures which not only the welfare but the very existence of the integrity of the empire demanded. Sir JAMES GRAHAM felt anxious to address the House on this ques- tion ; and appealed to the candid indulgence of Members for a hearing. It had been to him a vital, he might say a fatal question. (A laugh.) He knew whence that sneer proceeded. Was that the answer he re- ceived to his entreaty for a candid hearing? He repeated—it had been to him a fatal question ; it had hurled him from power. It had done much more : it had suspended, and threatened—he yet trusted it would not destroy—some of his earliest friendships. The present motion had been characterized as a trial of strength between Ministers and the Opposition. He certainly was of opinion himself, that no Adminis- tration could exist with credit to itself except in agreement with the Legislature as to the course to be pursued in reference to the Irish Church. Sir James argued, that although Lord John Russell and some of his friends were doubtless quite sincere in their declarations of attachment to church establishments, yet some of their supporters only

looked upon the success of his motion as a prelude to the overthrow of all ecclesiastical establishments. He contended that the State was the trustee for the Church; and as long as the property of the Church was applied to Protestant purposes, and only so long, were the uses of the trust fulfilled. The plans of Lord John Russell, if effected, would fail of their purpose. It would be no satisfaction to the mass of the Catholic population to have one-fourth of the Church revenue doled Out to them by a Board in Dublin for the establishment of Schools. He admitted that the weak point of attack had been selected. The Episcopalians in Ireland were a minority—that was acknowledged ; but the position they held was the key to that of the United Church of England and Ireland. He:wished to have Ecclesiastical property dealt with as other trust property.

Let the House consider, then, in what light they should regard such a pro- position as this applied to other trust property. The Corporation of Liverpool

pool

Was possessed of large property which it applied to the improvement of the com- merce and the trade of that emporium ; but it had now almost exhausted the

possibility of improving the quays and docks of that great harbour. A year or two ago, Mr. O'Connell (whom he regretted not to see in his place) was ex- ceedingly anxious to have a ship canal made from Dublin to Kingstown. The trade of Dublin was incidentally connected with that of Liverpool; but what would any rational man have said toe proposition for applying the surplus reve- nues of the Corporation of Liverpool to the construction of the Dublin ship canal ? ( Cries of "Oh, oh !") A Commission of which Mr. O'Connell was a member, appointed to deal with Corporation property as it was now proposed to deal with Church property, would no doubt speedily make the Dublin ship garish and reduce the Liverpool sin plus to a deficiency.

He contended that the surplus of the Irish Church was by no means so large as was represented ; and that at all events, it ought to be seen whether it could not be applied to Protestant uses. He was not sure but it might properly be applied to the repayment of the million loan to the Clergy. As to the doctrine that the Established Church should be the church of the majority, be contended that the majority of the whole United Kingdom were Episcopalians. When establishing a favoured religion at the expense of the State, he considered that the truth of that religion should be taken into account. This be held to be a most important point in the consideration of this question. Be ridiculed the idea of the people of Ireland being satisfied with the proposed alteration, notwithstanding the assertions of some of their leaders ; and he read some extracts from evidence given to a Committee of the House in 1825, by Mr. Sheil and Dr. Doyle, to prove that the declarations of leading men among the Catholics were not to be trusted on this subject. Ile also read extracts from a work by Dr. APHale, and from Mr. O'Connell's letters to Mr. Sharman Crawford, to prove that nothing short of the abolition of Tithes and the Protestant Church in Ireland would satisfy the Catholics ; and he must say, that if a great principle were to be abandoned, it would be better policy to satisfy the Catholics at once by establishing their religion in Ireland, than by the abortive measures of pacification proposed by the Opposition. He knew that he should be charged with desertion of his Whig principles ; but he contended that he had not deserted them.

" What are the doctrines—what the principles of the Whigs ? I Dan speak- ing in the presence of a member of the illustrious house of Russell—a house not less distinguished for its love of freedom than for its attachment to the Protestant religion: if in the presence of such a man I may venture to define the principles of the Whigs, I should say that they consist in a bold assertion of the utmost freedom both of faith and action in all matters, whether of state or religion to the fullest extent consistent with law, order, and constitutional submission. No death's-head and cross-bones demniciatious to control the free 'exercise of the elective franchise—no prayer addressed to Heaven to withhold

its mercy from the man bold enough to defy the denunciation, and to vote as his conscience dictated. ( Cheers). The principles of the Whigs, if I under- stand them, consist no less or a love of liberty than of a jealousy of the Catho- lic religion as an engine of power whenever it steps forth and arrogates to itself the right of ascendency ; and above all, I conceive those principles to consist in a warm and uncompromising attachment to the Protestant religion as by law established in this land. I have thus endeavoured to state to the House (very imperfectly I am aware) what are my views upon the subject. I have but one Inure topic to allude to : I have told the House that I have a religious feeling upon the subject ; let me now add, that I think the property set apart by our ancestors, whether in England or Ireland, for the purpose of maintain- ing in perpetuity the Protestant religion, is sacred, and must be applied to that purpose. More than that, I say that those who administer at the altar have a

right to live by tire altar. I say that that principle is as high as heaven, and you cannot touch it; it is as strong as the Almighty, and you cannot overturn ; it is as fast as the Eternal, and can never cezm to bind you : it is fixed in you as Christian men, and as Christian legislators, can never fail to actuate you. This is the view that I take of the priuciple of the question which we are called on to decide, and I for one will declare that no consideration on earth shall induce tne to compromise or to destroy it."

Lord Howlett. contended, that the property of the Irish Church was bestowed for the purpose of promoting religion and morality among the great body of the people; and be would ask whether that pur- pose had been answered by the Irish Church? Had it maintained and promulgated the Protestant religion ? The striking statements of Lord John Russell proved the reverse. The Church had been deeply injurious to religion among Protestants themselves. True, the con- duct of some of the Catholic priests instigated the people to turbu- lence; but had not Protestant clergymen at public meetings acted the same part, and endeavoured to inflame the people? Sir James Graham had illustrated his argument by supposing an application of the funds of the Liverpool Corporation to the construction of an Irish canal.

Be would suppose, and the case was a very possible one, that the property of the Corporation of Liverpool consisted not of tolls upon vessels coming into the harbour, but of rent or tithe. Ile would also suppose that the property from which that rent or tithe was derived was given to the Corporation in remote periods for the improvement of the navigation of the river and of the harbour, but that in the piocess of time, from change of ciicutustances, the navigation came to be entirely destroyed aud the harbour deserted : would Sir James Graham, under such circumstances, state that there would beau right to apply the property so left to the Corporation of Liverpool to any other purpose than the hopeless one of getting rid of continually increasing sand-banks, and of converting that into a 'harbour which nature had determined should not be • one? Sir James would say—" It is corporation property we have a right to use it only for the purposes for which it was originally granted, and we will examine carefully what those purposes were. Now, I have in my pocket an old charter ; and I find that the property was ex- pressly given for the purpose of keeping up the harbour at Liverpool : ao matter, therefore, whether nature has rendered that impossible; still I cannot consent to the alienation of that property to any other pur- pose, however beneficial soever it may be to the public." Sir James Graham had embarked in a contest as hopeless and as difficult in the present Metance. He would retain this property for the support of the Protestant Church in Ire.. land, in spite of the feelings and wishes of nine tenths of the population of that country. He would convert that property, which ought to have been the means of spreading peace and civilization throughout Ireland, into the means of deluging the land in blood, and of making it a scene of confusion and disorder from one end to the other.

It had been contended by Sir James Graham, that the Church ought to be maintained because it was the church of the majority throughout the country, although in Ireland the church of the minority.

lie confessed that, from a gentleman coming from a part of the kingdom so very near the Scotch Borders, this proposition did not a little astonish. him. Why, did not Sir James Graham bring in a bill, and propose that vel y same interference now with the People of Ireland as some Monarch of the house of Stuart once did, with a view of compelling and dragooning the Scotch Presby- terians to conform to Episcopacy in that country ? Upon his own pi incip.le he was bound to do this. Then, again, he had said that the proposition of Lord John Russell might he all very well if Protestantism were exhausted in Ireland. This doctrine, he confessed, sounded vei y extraordinary. Did he mean to say, that as long as there was a single Protestant in Ireland no application of this property (which Lord Howie]: maintained was given for the good of tlie whole people, and not for a party), was to be made which should bendit the nation at large? If so, he owned it was a doctrine which he was unable to comprehend. But Sir James Graham, feeling, perhaps, that these were not grounds for maintaining in its present disproportionate condition the Pretestant Establishment in Ireland, stated another ground : he said that the 11,111,e was bound to decide upon which was the true faith ; and in stating this, he added, that he conceived himself to be stating nothing which was at variance with the real principles of complete toleration. But did he really mean to convert this House into an arena for theological disputes? Was he, on the one side, to come down armed with the huge volumes of the Fathers, and Mr. O'Connell, en the other, fortified by the Councils and the decretals of the Church of Rome, and to argue which was the true religion, the Catholic or the Protestaut? And if (which might by possibility be the case) the decision should be adverse to Sir James, did Ile mean to say he would then be prepared to allow Mr. O'Connell to introduce a bill declaring that for the future the established religion of this country should be the Catholic religion? Was he prepared to follow out his principle to that result? If so why did he not act upon it with respect to Canada? Why not propose to add this one, which was now happily wanting to the other causes of discontent in those colonies? He confessed that it always grieved and surprised him to hear men who called themselves Protestants make use of such language as this. Ile had always thought that one great service which the authors of the Reformation did to mankind, was that they emanci-

pated the human mind from those fetters under which it had so lung groaned, and established the exclusive right of private judgment, and he did not expect that any man who professed to follow in their steps would have ventured to aline down and call upon those who seriously differed from him to assent to any change of policy which he might propose, upon the ground that his religion was true,

and theirs false. Was it because we were a majority, that we had a light to insult the People of Ireland by talking to them of toleration? To use such lan- guage, was an insult to any man.

Ile proceeded to argue, that it was absolutely necessary, in order to have the least chance of pacifying Ireland, to adopt the principle on

which Lord John Russell proposed to act. He deoied that he hind any

wish to turn out the Ministers, and regretted that they staked their existence as a Cabinet on their power to maintain the Iri-.11 Church in

its present state. He had much rather that they would adopt the prin- ciples of their predecessors, and remain in office; for he foresaw that much difficulty would arise from the abrupt dismissal of the present Gc iernment. But whatever might be the consequence, he could not shrink from recording his vote on this question.

The House adjourned at one o'clock.

The debate was resumed on Tuesday, by Mr. Snarl.; who said tl at he gave way to Lord Howick on the preceding evening, and was glad that be had done so; for Lord Howick had set at rest any dem ts that might have been entertained as to the opinions of Earl Grey, whose talents and principles he inherited. He considered that this was a great point gained—to have the concurrence of the most distinguished statesman in England—the man of the greatest experience, the largest views, and who had accomplished the greatest things for the people of England. Mr. Sheil defended himself against the attacks of Sir James Graham ; who had shown great industry and sagacity in nosir g all the scraps and fragments which could be raked out of the political ordure in the gutter of an election. Although he was an agitator, Mr. Sheil said he had never delivered the speech attributed to him. He had never prayed that mercy might be denied to the Man who voted for the Tory candidate. He had said that if an elector accepted a bribe, the sordid recompense of baseness and of perjury would be attelded with ill-luck ; that bribes were like fairy presents ; that those who took them were generally visited with evil fortune ; and that although be should not deprecate any visitation with which Providence might afflict them in this world, he should not imprecate against them the vengeance of Heaven in the next. From the infelicitous velocity with which he spoke, a reporter might easily mistake what he said ; and it WaS little to be wondered at that his election speeches should be misunthrstood, when Sir James Graham had been falsely represented to have declared that the Ministry was composed of the worst possible materials, whereas it turned out (according to Sir James's explanation in the House) that be said nothing of the kind ! Mr. Sheil charged upon the opponents of Catholic Emancipation the failure of those prophecies which he and Dr. Doyle had made in 1825, as to the consequences of that mea- sure in pacifying Ireland. He reminded Sir James Graham, who had discovered such horror at the idea of the Government falling into the hands of persons who had not sufficient reverence for the rights of corporate property, that his friend, the " Cumberland Yeoman," had proposed to knock off 30 per cent. even from private debts. Sir James Graham had tried to illustrate his argument, but his head was too full of nautical imagery—he viewed objects with the Admiralty telescope—and he did not succeed. Mr. Sheil ridiculed the idea of the immutability of Church property ; and referred to the history of the Churches of England, Ireland, and more especially of .Scotland, to prove the interference of the State with its appropriation. It was proposed even to extend the influence of the Church in Ireland—to place a Marcus Beresford in every parish ; but would they dare to deal with Scotland in such a manner ? He attributed the great .pros- perity of Scotland to the happy settlement of the Church question—. to the inability of the Government to force Episcopacy on the people. He asked those who now refused to do justice to Ireland, and called for the report of the Commission, how they had supported a measure which blew off ten Bishops from the Church with a single puff ? There could be no doubt of the great superfluity of the income of the Bishops ; and Mr. Sheil read some statements from a table which proved that the income of the Archbishop of Armagh would soon be 19,000L a year, although it was reduced 4000/. by the Church

Temporalities Act. He traced rapidly the history of modern tithe legislation, which had all failed—every thing that Lord Stanley touched seemed to have failed. He wished that Sir James Graham, Who was swayed by his religious feeliugs, would look back to the pro- ceedings of that Church, which, in spite of every thing, he was deter- mined to maintain. Was it possible that Sir Robert Peel could think of maiutaining the present system.

" llew unfortunate it is that he pledged himself on the Irish Church ; and how inconsistent was that pledge with his undertaking to comply with the spirit of the Reform Bill,—as if the Reform Bill did not beyond every thing else prescribe and dictate tlw abatement in Ireland of this monstrous and alio- minable evil! The Reform Bill has augmented the power of the Irish People ; the heart of Ireland swells with the consciousness of that exciting augmeuta- tion ; sixty-three Members for Ireland, in the name of millions, ask, demand, insist upon redress. The Government have confessed that the law is baffled, and that even in the bayonet there is no longer power. That under these circums stances any man of sagacity should persevere in the course proposed by the Go- vernment, would be surprising; but that a man of the great abilities of Sir Robert Peel should do so, was astonishing beyond belief. But," continued Mr. " he has one failing, and he will forgive me for pointing it out : he does not go before—he does not even accompany events; he lets them get the start of Lim, and he pants and toils after them in vain.' Ile exhibited this imper- fection in the Emancipation, to which tardily be was compelled to submit ; he exhibited it in the Reform Bill, to which he is now obliged to bow down ; and he is, unfortunately for his country, to which he is qualified to render such great services, betraying the same fatal error with regard to that Church which has provided a burial-place for so many Ministries, and has a grave ready for the presmt Administration." (Long-continued cheers.) Dr. LEFROY contended that the Protestant-religion had been esta- blished in Ireland 250 years ago by a Roman Catholic Legislature. (" Oh, ch ! ") What, was not the Parliament that abolished Papal supremacy, and established the Protestant religion, a Parliament of Roman Catholics ? The actual revenues of the Irish Church had been greatly exaggerated. To be sure, they were now stated at 145000'. less than last year ; so something had been gained by delaying the settle- merit of this question. Ile contended that the income of the Bishops, after deducting the income of the cancelled Bishoprics, would not ex- ceed 09,071. per annum ; that the net income of Deans and Chapters was only 22n6/. ; and that the Tithe revenue, when the deduction pro- go in the new Tithe Bill had been made, would not exceed 413,000/. The income of the 1456 incumbents of livings would not average more than 2751. each ; and out of this they had to defray the tax, varying from 2 to 15 per cent., imposed by the Temporalities Bill, and other outgainga. (hi the whole, he felt convinced that the prospective in- come or the Irish Church would not exceed 500,0001. a year. Ile con- tended that the returns read by Lord John Russell were taken from dioceses %%Imre the number of Protestants was smaller than the average, and produced therefore an unfair result. The cause of the greater pro- portional increase of the Catholics was the itnprudence with which they entered into early marriages. But whatever the difference in numbers might be, the fact was, that nineteen-twentieths of the tithe came from Protestant landlords. The interference of the State with the Church property, was grounded on the assertion that the State had the control of all property held in morttnain.

Ile would ask, in answer to that argument, what was the meaning of those Acts of Parliament—as old some of them as the times of our first Edwards and henries—which had prohibited the alienation of property held in mort- main-7hich had rendered that alienation a forfeiture? If property held in mortmain were the property of the State, the State could interfere if it were at any tune alienated, and resume it. But had Mr. Ward told them what he meant by the property of the State ? In whose possession was it ? Was it in the King, in the Lords, or in the Commons Or was it in all three of them, as the gentlemen opposite were disposed to contend ? This was the first time that he had heard it said —and he ventured to assert that no lawyer would hold such a proposition—that the King, Lords, anti Commons of this kingdom had pro- perty. They bad the right to legislate for property, but they had not, nor could they have, property according to the law or to the constitution. He had stated where the ownership of the property in question was not; he would now atatein whom it was vested. It was vested in that great aggregate of corporations which constituted the ministers and servants of the Church of England ; it was in the hands of the Bishops—of the Deans and Chapters, and their integral members

—and of the Rectors and their successors. Did he mean to contend that it was rested in them in the way of absolute ownership—that they were the irrespon-

sible possessors of it ? No; he admitted that they held it coupled with the duty of being the teachers, ministers, and dispensers of the religion of the Church of England : with that duty they became clothed the very instant they entered on the sacred offices to which the property was appropristed, and from which he trusted he should never see it alienated.

He concluded by objecting strongly to the system pursued by the 1%"Itional Board of Education for Ireland, to which the sirplus of Church property was sought to be transferred, as being calculated to promote Popery; and by declaring that, if the arguments of the Oppo- sition were tollowed out, they went to prove the justice and necessity of .abolishing the Protestant Church, and establishing the Catholic religion, instead of merely modifying the former. Mr. CHARLES WOOD spoke at considerable length in favour of the motion, and Colonel DABIER and Sir ROBERT INGLIS against it. Mr. POULTER contended, that there was an essential distinction be- tween the titles by which the Church of England and the Church of Ireland ',Fla their respective property ; and that it was most unwise and impolitic to confound the two churches together. For his part he was resolute in separating them. He saw no danger to the one from any degree of correction necessary to the other. The Reformation was in unison with the national feeling in one coun- try, but was founded upon conquest and violence in the other. Is there no difference between persecution amid religious love ?—between charity and the power of the sword? For such was the exact measure of the difference be- tween the foundation of the two churches; and it would be an insult to truth and justice to permit the temporal immunities of the one to find shelter under the cover of a similarity in spiritual doctrine to the other. No length of time, no lapse of ages should prevent his hearty concurrence in an effort to redress a great national iniquity. No appeal to the rights of property, beyond existing lives, can ever be maintained where such rights were never united with the real and religious interests of a nation. In such a case, no prescription Can be urged against the cries of a people, and the voice of a people becomes the voice of God. It may be admitted that any change in long-establisheil things is an evil, and that nothing can justify it but the most powerful necessity. If the peace and prosperity of Ireland be essential to the welfare of the empire, such a necessity has now arisen. Antiquity, when utterly opposed to the improved wisdom and intelligence of mankind, is the weakest of all justifications. What- ever force it may have on the minds and prejudices of stone, it would be lament- able indeed, if a legislature should ever forget that antiquity is the real infancy of the world, and that the period of its most advanced age and of the most extended human experience is that instant of time in which he had now the honour to address the House.

Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE spoke at some length in opposition to the motion ; and repeated many of the arguments previously advanced by Dr. Lefroy. He was followed by Mr. FEARGUS O'CoNNOR, in support of the motion ; and then Sir Wir.r.rAm FOLLETT (Solicitor-General) rose to address the House. He considered that they were not in possession of sufficient data whereon to legislate on this question. He objected, however, on higher grounds to the resolution. Although Lord John Russell had used discreet and moderate language, yet the object of his speech appeared to be to increase the dissatisfaction of the Irish people. He had said to them what was equivalent to this—" If the House will not sanction my resolution—if they will not hold out to you the prospect of removing the Church Establishment in Ireland—clamour for the Re- peal of the Union." Did he not also in effect tell the Members of this House, that if they refused to vote for his resolution, they ought not to oppose the Repeal of the Union ? He had no doubt, judging from the speeches of Mr. Ward, Lord Howiek, and Mr. Sheil, that the ultimate effect of carrying this resolution would be the appro- priation of the property of the Irish Church for the benefit of the Catholic population. Mr. Ward had said that the Catholics never could be reconciled to the Protestant Church ; and Lord Howiek, that its establishment was an insult to them. He was certain that the country would look upon this resolution as the first step towards the destruction of the Irish Church. He denied that the existence of any surplus was proved ; but if it did exist, Did honourable gentlemen on the other side seriously believe that the appro- priation of a small surplus would remove the supposed deep rooted grievances of the Irish people, or allay those annoyances which they felt at contributing to the support of the E•tablisbed Church? It was impossible ; and no argument had been urged on the opposite side which nut not go to the removal of he Pron....rant Establishment itself in Ireland. But he tlifflo-ed from the resolution upon the ground that we had no right to meddle with the property of the Church. The dilemma of which Lord John Russell had spoken, was of his own creatien ; nor was lie willing to follow the noble Lord into that dangerous bog into which be had thorglit proper to plunge himself. Ile had not heard any 31enth.:r say that there was no distinction between the property of the Church and the property of the People. The very fact of its being the pro- perty of the Church proved that it could not be in all its incidents and analo- gies like property held by an individual. But it was held upon certain trusts and for certain purposes. If it could be shown that there was any necessity for altering the mode in which that property was now distributed in order to effect those purposes for which it was held, then the Legislature had a right to inter- fere; but if no such necessity could be shown, then any interference would be- an infringement upon the sacred rights of property, and with the very trusts awl purposes for which that property was originally Riven. Now what were the trusts and purposes for which this property was given ? We were told by Lord John Russell that the greater part of it originally came from our Catholic ancestors, and for Catholic purposes. If that were the proper doctrine, and if any measure founded upon such assumption were applicable to Ireland, it would be equally applicable to the property of the Church of England. But lie denied that any such doctrine could be applied to that property, nor would the habits and feelings of the people admit of it. Without wishing to go into any religicus discussion, he believed that the Reformation in this country did not create any deviation of Church property. The Reformation was only a purification of the religion of the Established Church, but the property of the Church remained sacred for the purposes for which it was originally held—namely, for the pur- poses of the established religion of the country.

It was a matter worthy the consideration of the House, whether they should have the sanction of the country in following the course pointed out in the resolution.

He believed that when the effect, object, and intent of this motion was known to the People of England, the House would see from one end to the other the same feelings displayed which they had already witnessed. The People, he was persuaded, would not consent to any step which would first have the effect

i of destroying the Protestant Establishment n Ireland, and ultimately lead to the destruction of the property and of the Church in this country.

Tie resolution was framed not so as to indicate the real meaning of its authors, but so as to secure the greatest number of votes— If that resolution had been couched in stronger terms—if it were framed in words which its real spirit fully authorized the use of—he believed the noble Lord would not have so many supporters as he confidently expected. He com- plained, therefore, of the language ot the resolution as applicable to the subject matter of the debate. But there was another view in which he objected to it most strongly. If the object of the resolution (as he was informed) was not to express a want of confidence in the existing Government, at least it was to do something tantamount to it—at least it was to do something which might embarrass and fetter the King's Government in the great measures which they were now contemplating. (Loud laughter from the Opposition, and cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Was it possible that it could have any other effect? Suppose the [louse were now to pass the resolution, would not that resolution necessarily interfere with the Bill proposed by Sir Robert Peel, for the commutation of tithes? Would it have any other practical effect but to delay that relief for which Mr. O'Connell told them the Irish people were panting ?

He was the independent representative of a numerous constituencY, although he held office under the Crown. Ile could not, as lie had no public life to refer to, compare his former conduct with his present support of Ministers; but he could assure theellouse, that he bad always considered that the old party distinctions of Whig and Tory were swept away by the Reform Act, and that he should not have con- curred. in the removal of Earl Grey from office as long as be possessed a majority in the House, and the confidence of the country. But after the withdrawal of.Lord Stanley and Sir James Graham, and when it was evident that Ministers were listeuilig to the councils of's gentle- man who had been denounced by them shortly-before in the Speech from the Throne, he came to the conclusion that they no longer merited the confidence of the country.

Supposing a new Government were to be formed, was it not, he asked, con- ceded that it could not he comprised exclusively of the members of the party to

which Lord John Russell belonged? Was it not conceded, that if a new Go- vernment were formed, they must make the junction which—he did not like to ment:on the names of honourable Members—had been alluded to on a former night with respect to England ? And was it not equally clear that, with regard to Ireland, they must and would look for support to that party of which Mr. O'Connell was in that House the distinguished leader ? Ile asked the House, and above all, he asked the English Representatives, whether such a Govern- ment could for one month, or for one hour, possess the confidence of the nation? Although he did not believe that a Government thus formed, and coming into power upon the basis of such a resolution, could exist for any length of time, rt he dad feel that the mere accession to power of persons' those prin- ciples would give to the Movement party in this country and in Irelinid a force and impetus which no p ,seer in the State would be able afterwards successfully to resist. For this reason it was, that lie called upon every member of that House, whatever his party or political sentiments, to pause upon the vote he was about to give. He asked the noble Lord, even at this moment, when one at least of the institutions (lithe couutry was attacked openly by this very resolution, to forget all party differences, and consent to withdraw it. (Itunical cheers, am/ a slight laugh from the Opposition.) Sir Josue HOBHOUSE congratulated Ministers and the House on the Valuable accession they had obtained in having Sir William Follett among their body. That gentleman had justified his claim to the high reputation he had acquired. He had aspired to occupy high ground in- deed in discussing the present question. He alone bad grappled with it completely. Sir John understood him to assert, that you could not touch the Church of Irelund without touching the Church of England also—without touching public property in general, and if necessary, private property also. He should -have been better pleased with Sir 'William Follett's speech, bad he abstained at its close from using some unworthy arguments. They had heard something certainly like an at- tempt to ring the old alann-bell—an act too contemptible for a man of his talents: he had attempted to ring that old alarm-bell, which, had it frightened the man who made him, bald it frightened the Chancellor of the Exchequer, be would not have occupied the post he now does or have been able to bring forward his learned Solicitor-General. Has it come to this—that a great debate should dwindle into nothing but a miserable and filthy appeal to the lowest and vilest of human pas- sions? Are we to be terrified from doing justice to a great nation- stot our enemy, not even our ally, but part and parcel of this great em- pire—by the fear of what is almost a byword ? Are we to be told we are not to do this, for if we do, the old flame of 1807 shall be lighted up—the old cry, which so long prevented the settlement of the Catholic question, and so long deprived men of sense in this country of their best power of action shall again be raised ? Sir John Hob- house proceeded to justify the course pursued, and intendeel to be pur- sued on this question by Lord Melbourne's Ministry. He reminded the present Ministers, that force, law, private charity, public benevo- lence, all bad failed to pacify Ireland. There was only one way lift; and that was to acknowledge that henceforward the enormous esta- blishment of the Irish Church should be proportioned to the spiritual wants of the people, and the surplus, if any, applied to general pur- poses. It was said that if the present :Ministry were turned out, that the Opposition were not provided with a substitute— Why, Sir, " I really do not think that is our concern. The right honour- able gentlemen opposite must excuse me for saying, that, considering the cir- cumstances under which the late Government were turned out, they are the very last people in the world who have the most remote right to ask such a question. I think we might with much greater propriety ask them how they came to think they were provided with a Government—such a Government as, after an appeal to the people, could not insure them one majority in the House of Commons? Again, considering the very easy mode in which I should suppose—judging of course from what I see—Governments are put together, if I may be allowed to form an opinion upon the subject, I should certainly say that it was no very difficult task. I could select out of the honourable Mem- bers present, fifteen gentlemen—fifteen ! three fifteens—who (I will mike no invidious comparisons) might constitute three or four Governments, any one of which would certainly do as well as the right honourable Baronet's. What the Paymaster of the Forces said amounted, in fact to this= You are a fac- tion; you have just been turned out of the Government, and you wish to turn us out in our turn.' Why, Sir, I really do not know that we have very great reason to be discontented with our present situation; because, in the first place, we are the Government—though not in name, in fact. (Prolonged cheers.) There has not been a single question yet carried against us—not one —not a single question. [Here Lord John Russell, we believe, made some suggestion to Sir John Ilubhouse' who immediately resumed.] Yes, exactly. My noble friend reminds me, that we not only carry on the Government ill ttll6 House, but are the Executive Government also; at least, if we have not a positive, we have something like a negative vote on Government appoint- ments out of this House. (Much cheering.) So, Sir, setting aside the mere odd, trivial, and insignificant circumstance of our not sitting on that side of the Speaker's chair, I really do not see what it is we have to quarrel with in our present situation. The air is freer here—decidedly purer ; I was accustomed to inhale it for the first fourteen years of my political life ; and I say, most Sincerely, that I prefer it most decidedly. I am not fond of dancing in chains; and I therefore say, very unaffectedly, that I prefer this side of the House. ( Cheers from the Opposition," Oh r from the .Ministeriul benches.) I repeat, prefer it ; and when the right honourable Baronet has been there a few clays longer, he will prefer it too. ( Cheers and laughter.) Why, what is there to make our present situation disagreeable? We retired from office— Or rather, in plain terms, we were dismissed—without, as I have ever yet learnt, any formal notice, without any complaint against us; neither the King nor the Gauntry made any complaint, that I have yet heard of, against us—we sacrificed mo part of our character—we made no compromise—we altered no determina- tion—we belied no principles—we did not mu any way compromise our public actions; and I trust that when we did retire, or at least when we were dis.. missed from his Majesty's Councils, we preserved that without which DO man can act beneficially fur his country or honourably for himself—I mean our cha- racters. We preserved that integr icy about us which ought to belong to the character of every public man, and without which all talents, all experience, all station, all the smiles of a Court, all popularity, are vain and frivolous."

The House adjourned, on the motion of Mr. E. L. Ble.wert.

The discussion on Wednesday was opened by Mr. Sergeant Tee- room). Ile spoke at some length in defence of the motion; but with such extreme rapidity, as to render it impossible for the reporters to give any thiug but a meagie and incorrect outline of his speech ; which appeared to be replete with liberal sentiments and striking imagery. He was followed by Mr. PRAM); who went over much of the same ground as Mr. Lefroy and Mr. Gladstone, arguing against the existence

of a surplus, and the proposed application of it. Ile made several quotations from the evidence of Mr. O'Connell and the Roman Catho- lic Bishop, Dr. Murray, before the Committee of 1825, to prove that the turbulence of the Melt arose from their extreme poverty, not from religic us persecution.

Dr. LUSHINGTON contended that the Church Establishment was the main cause of the evils ; and challenged the supporters of that Este-

blishment to prove that it was in wont:nee with any just principle, divine or human, to impose the hostile creed of the minority on the majority of the nation. He denied that it was pretended to cure all the distress of Ireland by the measure proposed ; but it was hoped, and might be expected, that the carrying of the resolution would be taken as a material step towards the redress of Irish wrongs. He an- ticipated the happiest effects to the Protestant religion from the educa- tion of the children of all sects together, without any religious distinc- tions. Ilad this plan been adopted earlierafie believed that the dispro- portion between the Catholics and Protestants would not now have been so great.

Mr. BEIT.RY THOMPSON, though a member of the Opposition, and proud to acknowledge Lord John Russell as his leader, could not, con- sistently with his conscientious conviction, support the motion before the House. He differed from his political associates wit5 great pain ; but, on the three following grounds, he found it impossible to vote with them— First, as a Protestant he could not but feel the injustice of a proposition like this towards the existing Clergy in Ireland. ( Cries of" No, no !" from the Op- position.) He believed that the Protestant Clergy of Ireland were every way deserving of and entitled to his support ; and he looked upon the present motion only as tending to alienate the property of the Protestant Church frusu those pious, learned, and excellent Dien, who daily shining forth as the true and best supporters of that Church. His second reason was, that the principle of this motion went to affect not only Church property, but all private property of a corporate nature, or in any way connected with the original Establishment of the Church of England. His third ground was, that all the arguments which he had yet heard were founded upon mere conjecture as to consequences. The same course was pursued in respect to the Emancipation Bill, and the hopes of conciliation founded upon that measure were found to be illusory. Ile was not biassed by political feelings on one side or the other in his opposition to the motion.

Mr. Ltemerox expla:ned, that Mr. Thompson was utterly mis- taken in supposing that existing interests would be trenched upon. On the contrary, even those who held what were called extreme opi- nions on his side of the House, were all agreed as to the dishonesty of interfering with vested rights. Mr. Littleton went on to express his surprise that Sir James Graham, who had voted for the suppression of ten bishoprics, and the other measures of Earl Grey's Government for reforming the Irish Church, should feel such horror in aftirmiug Lord John Russell's resolution. He contended that the transfer of a large amount of Church property, for the payment of Vestry Cess was an actual secularization of it. He then showed, that :Me Lefroy bad reduced the amount of the Irish Church revenues to 541,0001. by as- suming that the tithe bill of Sir Henry Hardinge had passed; whereas it would be utterly impossible for the Government to carry that bill, unless the principle of the resolutiOn of Lord John Russell was acceded to. It appeared from Parliamentary papers, that the gross revenue of the Irish Church was actually within a trifle of 8e0,0001. ; and it should be remembered that the funds arising from the sale of Bishop's leases and the suppression of Bishoprics were placed at the disposal of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and were part of the actual Church property; although Mr. Lefroy and those on his side of the House chose to assume that they formed no part of the income of the Esta- blishment. Mr. Littleton argued, that if 4500/. a year was consi- dered ample for an English Bishop, who had to keep up a house in London and was liable to a number of expenses (besides the greater cost of

London, from which an Irish Bishop was free, surely it would

be fair to make a very considerable reduction in the •incomes of the Irish prelates. He referred to the incomes of the churches in Spain and Portugal as being smaller in proportion to the extent of the teli- gious communities in those countries. In no other country but this was the principle of the inalienability of Church property maintained. Even in Lutheran countries, the property of the Church had under- gone changes in accordance with the revolutions of time. Iri Catholic Belgium, money had been this year voted for erecting a Jewish syna- gogue, and 10,000 francs were granted for the support of an English church. In Prussia, the people were provided by the State with clergymen of their own religious persuasion. In every country but Ireland, it would be found that the feelings of the people were regarded. Sir HENRY HARDING]; went into a number of calculations, the ma- terials for which had been furnished him by the Ecclesiastical Board in Dublin, to prove that when his Tithe Bill came into operation, as well as the provisions of the Temporalities Act, the income of the Irish Church would not exceed 450,000/. a year, including 63,000/. for glebe lands. The effect of these reductions and 75l. for a curate, on an income of 1000/. a year, would be to diminish it by 4451., leaving the future incumbent 5551. per annum. From this sum the repairs of the glebe-house, expenses of visitations and other outgoings, were also to be deducted. With regard to the fund in the hands of' the Eccle- siastical Commissioners, the income derived from the suppressed Bishoprics, was only 19,477/. per annum, while the charges on that fund were 70,0001. A debt of 100,000/. bad been already incurred by the Commissioners. The future income might be put down at 83,4401.; but, according to the calculations of Mr. Finlayson, the debt of the Commissioners, which was now regularly increasing, would not be liquidated till after the expiration of fifty-one years, and then there would be a surplus of 14,000/. a year. Had the Tithe Bill of last year been passed, the cost to the country would have been equal to the payment of 3,195,000/., although Lord Althorp bad declared that it_ would only occasion an extra expenditure of ele,0001. a year, Sir Henry- maintained that the collectiou of tithes luisk not been. tbe audit causes the House of Lords, last session. In the passage alluded to. Lord tics of lreland, then would the phantom they had raised assume a tangible furns,

Brougham expressly declared, that if there were any surplus of Church hilted to those who raised the cry. property, its application must be limited strictly to the education of the people in the principles of the Established Church. Sir Henry Lord STANLEY rose amidst cries of " Adjourn !" He requested concluded by asking whose fault it was that Ireland was in its present from the House the indulgence he usually experienced ; and said he state ? Lord John Russell was the first to make the attack on the was physically unable to detain them for any long time. Ile had not Church of Ireland, and was he not also the first to cast a firebrand le into it ? on this stihjert ; and he never would consent to appropriate the reve-

ritual. He warned the House against supposing that Earl Grey was ducted ; but he would give the most direct denial to the charge that in favour of the motion because Lord. Howick supported it. He Lord JOHN Russet.r, had thrown the first firebrand into the Irish could not presume to speak for Earl Grey, but he was certain, what- Church : it was from the opposite side of the House that firehands were ever his opinion of the abstract right of the Legislature to deal with discussed by snaking use of calculations'of figures, like those of Mr. Littleton. If he, too, might venture on Parliamentary prophecies, and on the fate 4 the of the Durham College applicable- gentlemen opposite anticipate the possibility of passing that bill whilst the pie. front students to be present at a course of study un'd a ecurse of lectures by. sent question temaincd uosettled ? Even though the Government with the late in that House-(Loral laughter)-gentlemen might sneer at the mention of in Ireland upon the system which it was the intention of his noble friend to in-

the name of Lord Althorp, but the country would not join in the sneer-

tion of the gallant officer -" How did you expect to carry your Tithe Bill of lie cared very little; for he oppo,e71 the motion on principle, and e

impossibility. years. It had been estimated by Mr. Hume, net very long ago, at three

arguments, to have maintained a Catholic rergion. But when the fact was di- various occasions this enactment had been declared and enforced by the rectly the reverse-when he found that Protestantism was the religion of the Irish Government and the heads of the Irish Church. In 1786, Mr. State-when he found that by the treaty between Ilse two countries England had Secretary Orde introduced a bill to extend and confirm the benefits of pledged itself to Protestantism continuing the religion of the State-he should this act, by augmenting the tax on the clergy. Subsequently Sir Robert require stronger arguments than he had yet heard to induce hini to du'away with. Peel himself, when Irish Secretary, had sanctioned the principle of ap_ the Protestant religion, and substitute in its place that of Catholicism. propriating the funds of the clergy to the education of all sects, by issu- He contended that the principle of remunerating a clergyman accord- ing a commission, of which Mr. Leslie Foster and Mr. Fratikland big to the duties he had to perform was a most dangerous one- Lewis were members, to inquire into the manner in which the provisions Would any honourable gentleman tell bins how this principle was to apply? of the act of Henry the Eighth were complied with. Archbishop He would ask, if the principle of proportionate remuneration was applied in Ire- Magee had expressly stated his concurrence with the Government in land, whether it would not one day be applied to the Church of Eugland ? and if • acting on this principle of applying the proceeds of a compulsory tax introduced into Etigland,whether the result would not be, that all tile property of on the clergy to the education of the children of all religions. Marquis the Church would be thrown into a common fund, and applied according as the Wellesley had also declared that such was the intention of the act of feeling might be as to the exigency of each case. If they adopted such a Henry the Eighth. But he would not rest his case on Irish authority principle, was it possible for them to lay down a fixed rule? But Mr. Spring Rice had asked whether they went the length of saying, that where there was only : the Bishop of Durham had obtained an act of Parliament for founding a college to be supported out of the Cathedral revenues of no Protestant population they should maintain a Protestant clergyman ? Lord Stanley really did go that length. (Load cheers.) He maintained the prin- Durham for the general education of all sects; and the Bishop justified ciple to the full length, and would state the reason. Could they find any what he had done, by quoting an act of Henry the Eighth, applicable to intelligible principle by which they could lay down a rule on this subject, an& England, and which authorized the appropriation of Church property by which it could be applied to the temporalities of the Church? What rule for the education of all classes. If therefore Lord John Russell was a were they agreed to apply by which to suspend the continuance of a clergyman firebrand and a spoliator, he was so in company with Archbishop in a parish? They were told, and he admitted it, that there were parishes in Magee and the Bishop of Durham. which there were no Protestants! but, in spite of the ridicule thrown upon There was one point more to which he could not help alluding before he sat the argument, he would ask why ought they to stop the continuance of a Pro- testant and that was to the cry which had been raised by gentlemen on the op- testant clergyman in that parish? for the argument must apply, as there must posite sale of the Hcuse in treating this question. The country, to be sure, be a minimum as to the number of the congregation at which to stop. la was not threatened with the cry of " No Popery "-that cry was, thank districts where the Catholics were most prevalent, there was the smallest num- Heaven, out of date ; the antiquated gentleman who personated " No Popery" ber of resident gentry ; and he contended it was no small advantage in such had-long .since been hissed off the stage ; but it was only, as it would seem, to cases to have a resident Protestant clergyman. He maintained, and he knew of appear with a new dress and in the new character of "The Church in danger." instances in proof of the correctness of his opinion, that where zealous and lie denied, however, that there was the slightest grounds for such a cry; but if discreet Protestant clergymen were settled, converts were made from the Ca- there was-if there were those who really meditated the destruction of the tholic to the Protestant Church. An instance of this had occurred in Mr. Church by the appropriation at' its surplus revenues-he would only say that O'Connell's own neighbourhood. Formerly there had been a curate there upon the Bishop of Durham was among the number. He would wish, however, a small stipend, and the duties were negligently performed ; but, upon a neer twriously and solemnly to call the attention of the 'louse to the danger of rais- appointment, a great change had taken place. He would state what he WAS ing t.ln.it cry ; for he confessed that lie was not one who would wish to promote about to state on the authority of a gentleman.

a religious warfare in the country. Mr. Gladstone had declared that there were • Mr. M. O'CoNNELL-." same!"

of Iriah discontent: it was the extreme poverty of the peasants that in this country a great number of persons who were desirous to sever the saes- made them turbulent. With regard to the unanimity of the late Ca- lug union between Church and State ; but this he would say, that if that cry binet on the subject of the question before the House, he had good were raised by the advocates of the Church, it might not be long before the reason to doubt it ; and would read a passage from a speech of Lord danger they threatened would be realised; for if they continued to support the Brougham in reply to a question from the Duke of Cumberland, in abuses of the Church, and were determined to withhold justice from the Catho- the House of Lords, last session. In the passage alluded to. Lord tics of lreland, then would the phantom they had raised assume a tangible furns, and then indeed would the Church be in danger, and that result would be attri-

the people in the principles of the Established Church. Sir Henry Lord STANLEY rose amidst cries of " Adjourn !" He requested concluded by asking whose fault it was that Ireland was in its present from the House the indulgence he usually experienced ; and said he state ? Lord John Russell was the first to make the attack on the was physically unable to detain them for any long time. Ile had not in the least changed the opinions which he bad uniformly maintained into it ? on this stihjert ; and he never would consent to appropriate the reve- nues of the Church, or any part of them, to purposes not purely spi-

ritual. He warned the House against supposing that Earl Grey was ducted ; but he would give the most direct denial to the charge that in favour of the motion because Lord. Howick supported it. He Lord JOHN Russet.r, had thrown the first firebrand into the Irish could not presume to speak for Earl Grey, but he was certain, what- Church : it was from the opposite side of the House that firehands were ever his opinion of the abstract right of the Legislature to deal with thrown- Church property might be, Lord Grey was too wise a statesman not to He repeated, that thef question required to be discussed calmly and on the know and feel the danger of applying ecclesiastical funds to purposes simple isme of what was best to he done to meet the present exigencies of the not strictly ecclesiastical. With regard to the act of Henry the Eighth, circumstances of the people of Ireland. lie did not think that it could be best he did not attach much weight to it, and he did nut think the precedent :

bill of Sir Henry Hardinge, he would say that, be his influence what it might- In the first place, the original endowment of the chapter of Durham was att '

be the influence of Government what it might, and should they command those endowment suisicet to secular purposes, and for Protestant instruction. It was ' imposing and decided majorities they had command since the beginning of the very true that no test was required of the religious persuasions of those who j session-(Laughter front the Opposition)-that Tithe Bill would not, nor were to be admitted for instruction in that University : he believed that the could not pass, unless the question of appropriation were first allowed. Did same rule applied in other Universities; but, adwitnn7 that no test was required • gentlemen opposite anticipate the possibility of passing that bill whilst the pie. front students to be present at a course of study un'd a ecurse of lectures by. Protestant teachers and under Protestant ptofessors in England, he would a* lamented leader of the House of Commons, Lord Abhor's, should he powerful what analogy could he drawn from that to the apin opriation of Church property in that House-(Loral laughter)-gentlemen might sneer at the mention of in Ireland upon the system which it was the intention of his noble friend to in-

st upon ?

( Loud Opposition cheers)-if Lord Althorp, with as full a desire to pass his Ile could not forbear from expressing his belief that the ulterior Tithe Bill as Sir henry Hardinge no doubt was to pass his, was to bring it consequences of acceding to this motion wens such as some of its .; forward in the present session, the question of appropriation remaining unset- supporters must shrink from. With regard to waiting for the report I tled, he believed that Loud Al thorp could not carry his. He anticipated the ques. of the Commission, and with regard to the amount of the surplus, i tion of the gallant officer -" How did you expect to carry your Tithe Bill of lie cared very little; for he oppo,e71 the motion on principle, and e nfsounb- last session ?" The late Government expected to carry through their Tithe semient information would not alter his opinion on that vinep Bill, because the majority of that House felt that they were sincere in their jot. It Was, however, remarkable, that the income of the Irish Church, opinions un the question of appropriation. But with a Government opposed to and consequently the presumed amount of the surplus, bad been mar- the question ofapplopriation, the carrying of a Tithe Bill now was a legislative vellOusly lessened in the statements of the Opposition during the last few

impossibility. years. It had been estimated by Mr. Hume, net very long ago, at three

He referred to the fierce invectives with which Sir Robert Peel was millions; and now it had been dribbled down to 80000/. It appeared I assailed when carrying Catholic Emancipation, and to the attacks made that they must wait fifty years for any ;lethal surplus ; and lie could not on the late Government when advocating measures which the present imagine a greater delusion than to suppose that Ireland could be paci- ...' Ministers had adopted, to prove the utter worthlessness of such attacks tied in 1835 by the promise of applying a surplus, ss hich was not to -; and calumnies as those with which the Oioposition were 110W assailed. :scenic before 1885, to the education of Catholic children. Why, Mr. Sir Robert Peel had not been deterred by them ftom pursuing what lie O'Connell had declared on a former occasion, that to talk of waiting deemed the right course ; neither, he trusted, would his side of the even use years for the redemption of tith..s and the extinction of the ' House be influenced by them. Mr. Rice read a quotation front the system, was little less than madness-they might as svell say, wait till i John Bull, the organ of a great mass clients.° and reverend gentlemen, the Millennium. lie contended that the unnecessary interference of in which the 'Ministerial plan of Church Reform was declared to be the clorgy in the collection of tithes had been the fruitful eatt-e of ill- ruinous in its consequences to the Church. This proved that Sir fecling towards the Church. The resolution of Lord John Russell 71 Robert Peel would be attacked, as the late Ministers were, if he acted would not, the bill of Sir Bo:Jett Peel would, put an cud to this. 'al up to his pledges. It was allowed that sinecures in the Church should Lord Stanley's own bill, if allowed to come into fair operation, would be abolished; but were Cathedral sinecures the only ones lie main- effect this great good ; us he had himself proved in his dealings with ; tabled that the incumbent of a parish without a flock was as much a his own Catholic tenantry. It was true that we had pot established .a sinecurist, as any Canon or Prebend. There were many such sinecu- the Church of England in Scotland, because we were bound by treaty 2. rists in Ireland ; and lie read sonic statements relative to that part of not to interfere with the religian we found established in that country the diocese of Limerick connected with his own estate, proving that at the time of the Union- there were seven diyanct parishes with a population of about 5,500 But how stood the case with regard to Ireland ? lie fully admitted that the Catholics and not a single Protestant, and eight others with a population Protestant religion was not the religion of the majority of its people ; but at the of 21,000 Catholics and only 135 Protestants. He asked if this state same time it was the religion of the State at the time England got possession of T. of things was creditable to religion ? He would not desert the Protest- the country, and by a solemn obligation they WCfe bound to maintain it 80. t ants ; but was it fair that in parishes where there were 12 Protestants and Supposing they had found Ireland with a Catholic Church, a Catholic Aristo- I 5,500 Catholics, the latter should be bound to maintain a church for the craey, Catholic landlords, and a Catholic Legislature, and that that Legislature f former? He argued that it was lawful, and bad been the practice in had stipulated that notwithstanding the Union of the two countries that a Ireland, to tax the clergy for the education of the people of all religions. Catholic Establishment should be kept up-if such had been the ternss of the By an act, passed in the 28th of Henry the Eighth's reign, every in- treaty, as in the case of Scotland and of Canada, he would have held to the cumbent was bound by an oath to maintain a school in his parish. On obligation, and have felt himself bound, against all consequences and against all arguments, to have maintained a Catholic rergion. But when the fact was di- various occasions this enactment had been declared and enforced by the rectly the reverse-when he found that Protestantism was the religion of the Irish Government and the heads of the Irish Church. In 1786, Mr. State-when he found that by the treaty between Ilse two countries England had Secretary Orde introduced a bill to extend and confirm the benefits of pledged itself to Protestantism continuing the religion of the State-he should this act, by augmenting the tax on the clergy. Subsequently Sir Robert require stronger arguments than he had yet heard to induce hini to du'away with. Peel himself, when Irish Secretary, had sanctioned the principle of ap_ the Protestant religion, and substitute in its place that of Catholicism. propriating the funds of the clergy to the education of all sects, by issu- He contended that the principle of remunerating a clergyman accord- ing a commission, of which Mr. Leslie Foster and Mr. Fratikland big to the duties he had to perform was a most dangerous one- Lewis were members, to inquire into the manner in which the provisions Would any honourable gentleman tell bins how this principle was to apply? of the act of Henry the Eighth were complied with. Archbishop He would ask, if the principle of proportionate remuneration was applied in Ire- Magee had expressly stated his concurrence with the Government in land, whether it would not one day be applied to the Church of Eugland ? and if • acting on this principle of applying the proceeds of a compulsory tax introduced into Etigland,whether the result would not be, that all tile property of on the clergy to the education of the children of all religions. Marquis the Church would be thrown into a common fund, and applied according as the Wellesley had also declared that such was the intention of the act of feeling might be as to the exigency of each case. If they adopted such a Henry the Eighth. But he would not rest his case on Irish authority principle, was it possible for them to lay down a fixed rule? But Mr. Spring Rice had asked whether they went the length of saying, that where there was only : the Bishop of Durham had obtained an act of Parliament for founding a college to be supported out of the Cathedral revenues of no Protestant population they should maintain a Protestant clergyman ? Lord Stanley really did go that length. (Load cheers.) He maintained the prin- Durham for the general education of all sects; and the Bishop justified ciple to the full length, and would state the reason. Could they find any what he had done, by quoting an act of Henry the Eighth, applicable to intelligible principle by which they could lay down a rule on this subject, an& England, and which authorized the appropriation of Church property by which it could be applied to the temporalities of the Church? What rule for the education of all classes. If therefore Lord John Russell was a were they agreed to apply by which to suspend the continuance of a clergyman firebrand and a spoliator, he was so in company with Archbishop in a parish? They were told, and he admitted it, that there were parishes in Magee and the Bishop of Durham. which there were no Protestants! but, in spite of the ridicule thrown upon There was one point more to which he could not help alluding before he sat the argument, he would ask why ought they to stop the continuance of a Pro- testant and that was to the cry which had been raised by gentlemen on the op- testant clergyman in that parish? for the argument must apply, as there must posite sale of the Hcuse in treating this question. The country, to be sure, be a minimum as to the number of the congregation at which to stop. la was not threatened with the cry of " No Popery "-that cry was, thank districts where the Catholics were most prevalent, there was the smallest num- Heaven, out of date ; the antiquated gentleman who personated " No Popery" ber of resident gentry ; and he contended it was no small advantage in such had-long .since been hissed off the stage ; but it was only, as it would seem, to cases to have a resident Protestant clergyman. He maintained, and he knew of appear with a new dress and in the new character of "The Church in danger." instances in proof of the correctness of his opinion, that where zealous and lie denied, however, that there was the slightest grounds for such a cry; but if discreet Protestant clergymen were settled, converts were made from the Ca- there was-if there were those who really meditated the destruction of the tholic to the Protestant Church. An instance of this had occurred in Mr. Church by the appropriation at' its surplus revenues-he would only say that O'Connell's own neighbourhood. Formerly there had been a curate there upon the Bishop of Durham was among the number. He would wish, however, a small stipend, and the duties were negligently performed ; but, upon a neer twriously and solemnly to call the attention of the 'louse to the danger of rais- appointment, a great change had taken place. He would state what he WAS ing t.ln.it cry ; for he confessed that lie was not one who would wish to promote about to state on the authority of a gentleman.

lerd STA I.:LEN—He was nct at liberty to name, but he pledged himself the miaow it/ was unimpeach. Lie. Iii ti e Wu, n time, public wurship had been all but dieci ntinued ; but on the appointment of a new rector to the parish, who

came to this piece, and who was young, active, and zealous, and above all, was a man of goo I nerves, which in such a district was especially necessary for a Protestant el .rgynain, a congregation of seventy Protestante was speedily gathered together, in a place where it was hardly supposed a Protestant could that ; and this in the very neigbourhood, nay, at the very door of the house of the Member for Dublin—he meant at the very door of Derrynane Abbey. On the preceding evening, Sir John Ilobhouse had said that there were materials on his side of the House for three Ministries. Could be form one, of which the members in the course of one week would not be in bitter opposition to each other?—

He would ask his honouralde friend opposite, the Member for St. Alban's, who was alwavs so candid and pleasant—supposing this resolution was carried,

and the yew Ministers—they could not do less—Invited him to take a part in the Government. Originally he proposed the motion in substance now before the House, and on the present occasion he had seconded the one brought firrwat d by the noble Lord ; surely, then, he ivould be a member : and would he consent to the principle that whatever was deducted from the Church revenues slionhl -be received only 11.4 a first instalment? But when this Cabinet was formed, some must Ira excluded. They would be anxious for this first instalment,

which would not be ready. But suppose the report flamed and laid on the table meeting all objections. Suppose it received the assent of the King, and

the approbation of the Lords and Commons—he had forgotten that his Lidde friend, on the present occasion, (lid not mean to communicate with the Ileuse Lords—that teas a formality he proposed to dispense with. Put suppose he bad done this, still nothing would be done to bring about peace among the party. Here is 3Ir. such a one, it WIffild be said, who supported us, and very strongly, too, or his right honourable friend the late Secretary for Ireland might be seat for—perhaps he would be excluded from the new Government—and his . right honourable friend would say that this plan would not do, nor any thing like it. It might do as a first instalment, hut be would never be easy until this vital disease was entirely cut out and utterly eradicated. But it might then be proposed that half the revenues of the Ida!' Church should be appropriated. Would this be sufficient to satisfy the opposite party ? Would the elemlmr for St. Affian's be content? Would the mil& Lord resist any such rash attempt, and determine not to proceed one inch further in disposing of this question V But if, ex confrsso, it has not been disposed of—if the pi inciple is Hot yet agreed upon that a Catholic people shall not support a Protestant Chin eh— then there is one ground for difference, one insurmountable obstacle to union among the honourable gentlemen opposite.

The debate was again adjourned, and the House broke up at two o'clock.

The discussion was continued on Thursday night.

Sir JOHN CAMPBELL, in the course of a long and forcible speech in support of the motion, contended that the inalienability of Church pro- perty was a doctrine for which no warrant could he found in the whole itistory of the country ; that there was nothing to that effect in the _Statute or Common Law of the land ; and that the notion was a rem- slant of Pagan superstition.

Mr. RICHARDS, whore remarks, as usual, excited so much laughter that they were scarcely audible in the Gallery, disapproved of applying the surplus to the purpose's of education ; and maintained that it ought to be implied to the support of the poor. He sat down without mentioning which way he should vote; but upon the question bring put to him by a Member, he said, that as he saw nothing but mischief sn the motion, he should join heartily and fearlessly in negativing it.

Mr. Sergeant WILDE wished to put the question before the House ton its real merits; for pains had been taken to embarrass it. The purpose of the question was to ascertain whether Ministers really pos- .sessed the confidence of the House, or not ; mid he hoped that ques- tion would be decided with a reference to that particular purpose. If the question whether the House did or did not repose confidence in Ministers were brought forward, as Sir Robert Peel seemed to wish, In these terms, Ministers would turn round, and say that as yet the Bouse bad not seen enough of their measures to determine the point fairly. Soon after his accession to office, Sir Robert Peel had declared -that he did not understand what was meant by " the principles of the Reform Bill ;" and that admission was enough to disqualify him from being Minister of this country. The principles of the Reform Bill were—to bring the public institutions of the country under proper control by purifying the representation ; to review those institutions, and to ascertain how far they answered the purposes for which they were aireginally devised; and to make such alterations in them as the opera- tion of time and circumstances !Eight have rendered necessary. When he • tecollected Sir Robert Peel's past political life, and saw the men whom be bad selected for his colleagues, be felt it to be impossible that he could possess the confidence of the House or the conntry. Sir Robert Pee) had alluded to his influence in the House of Lords, which would enable him—

Here Mr. CHARLTON called Mr. Wilde to order; alleging that he was departing entirely from the question before the House.

Mr. Wri.vy said, he should show Mr. Charlton presently that he bad entirely misapprehended the tendency of his argument. He was 4saying, when interrupted, that be regretted to hear Sir Robert Peel

. ground one of his claims to public confidence on the facility with which he could induce the House of Lords to accede to his measures.

Now, to him, this appeared to be something very like a dictation on the rut of the House of Lords to the House of Commons, who should be the Minister of the countty. They were told—" Your measures will be estimated by the House of Lords out with reference to their beneficial effect on the public interest, but with reference to the individual Minister under whose auspices they are brought forward; and if a Minister has the confidence of the House of C,onnuons, that is a° matter, unless he also possess the confidence of the House of Lords the mea- sures which he may propose shall not be adopted." When Parliament met, it became a matter of great importance to ascertain on what principle the greater part of the members of his Majesty's Government intended to proceed in can- smiting what was, and what WO, not an abuse. They had said that the Test and Corporation Act was not an abuse; they had said that the political degra- zlation of the Catholics was not an abuse ; they had said that Slavery was not an abuse ; they had said that the corruption of the Representation of the People was not an abuse. Why, of what use was it to tell him that such men were Reformers? It was with this feeling that he rejoiced that Lord John Russell Lad, by kis moti ,,,,, put this question to his Majesty's Government--" Do you anti a tainet ure Church an abuse? Do your Reform principles lead you to be- lieve that the present state of the Irish Church, with its small dirties and exor- bitent revenue.. is an abuse? if not, you are nut worthy of being the Ministers *h.: Cr. wu." (Loud cheering.) He explained the material difference in the state of affairs now com- pared with the time when the Melbourne Ministry were in office; and argued that this change justified a change in the course to be adopted by Parliament, and the pressing of the motion before the House at this particular time. With regard to the right of Parliament to alienate Church property, he asked what the titles of lay impropriators were worth, if that right did not exist—if the tratifer of Church property by Henry time Eighth to laymen was illegal ? He argued that great bene- fits to the whole population were likely to result from the proposed application of the surplus to the purposes of getieral education ; and ridiculed the idea of Lord John Russell and his supporters being spoliators aud llestructives.

Mr. GOULLURN followed Sergeant Wilde; but there was scarcely any new argunient or observation in his speech. Ile contended that Henry the Eighth's proceedings in the spoliation of Ilie Church had always been considered tyrannical nod unjust, and could not, therefore, be held forth as precedeets to Parliament at the present day. He alao thought that the supporters of the motion, when they came to deal with private adrowsons, would find it difficult to rebut the charge of invading private property.

Mr. Fowart. Rex roN did not think that the question before the House was one of confidence or no confidence in the l'elinistry : it was one of far deeper importance. On the one side, it was declared that on the settlement of this question hung the settlement of the dis- tractions of Ireland—on the other, that the Protestant religion was at stake, and that if the motion were carried, the Protestants must aban- don the South of Ireland. With such considerations presented to him, no question could comparatively be so trifling as the existence of an Administration, or the struggles amid triumphs of parties.

This question resolved itself into three parts,—First, was there a surplus fund beyond the moderate necessity of the Irish Church ? secondly, was there also a surplus bejond the necessity of the Irish Church, should that Church

increase, as he expected it would ? and, thirdly, having made provi fur the Church as it was, and as it should be hereafter, if there should be an excess still remaining how should we apply that excess? He believed that there was a surplus. "It had never been denied that the endowments of the Church in Ire- land were greater in proportion than those of the Church in England. Ile knew that some gentlemen conscientiously believed this was not the fact ; but to his mind there never was so unfortunate a mistake as that of supposing that

a Chinch gathered weight or influence by its wealth. If wealth, if prodigal endowments could have rendered effectual the conversion of the Irish, we at

this day should not have bail a single Catholic in Ireland. They had had wealth, power, Orange factions, PI otestant supremacy, and every experiment had been tried to the lint extent ; and he would say that to the last extent those

experiments lead failed. Ile believed they were fated to fail, and that it was natural they should fail; but he should like to see the experiment tried of a body of men, who, if they entered the Ministry, could enter it from no other

motive than from a Ilehire to do their duty. Experience had proved that those other lainian worldly means had been ineffectual ; but it was not in human na- ture to resist the influence of men who, exercising the utmost self- denial, and living in decent privacy, showed by acts of charity and by what might be called the visible eloquence of a virtuous life, that their exertions were directed to the attainment of something better to come. Therefore, for one, be would dispense with those advantages which the Church now possessed, and would rather put it upon what he behaved to be a mote sound and elevated station. But then they were nweby the argument that the example of Ireland would be a precedent for England. He would say, the sooner the better. Ile could wish for nothing better than that, in some parishes he could name, this very principle were applied, and that the superfluities were taken front the clergyman for the education of the people. Ile could wish for nothing better than that it should be applied in a certain parish, where there was a rectory, indeed, and liberally endowed, but where that rector was not resident ; where there was a curate who worked as hard as a day-labourer, and who received the pay of a day-labourer; and where, owing to the absence of the one, and the poverty of the other, there were no schools, and the people were in a state of barbarous ignorance. Ile should wish for nothing better than to reduce the ealary of the idle clergyman to provide for the minister who did the work, and for the moral and religious instruction of the people. Ile thought there must be a surplus, and this opinion was confirmed by what fell from Sir Henry Hardinge, who spoke of the conduct of the Archbishop of Armagh as so self-denying, because he was content with an income of 10,0001. a year—he begged pardon, 14,0001. a year. With all due respect for the Prelate, he thought there was room for reduction in that patticular quarter. But then there were the sine- cures— Would any man say there was not room for reduction in them? Show him a rich rector, non-resident, and he would say a reduction ought to take place in that quarter. Now for the second question—was there also a surplus, pro- vided the Church should increase? He, for one, thought the Irish Church would necessarily increase : first, because the Catholic Church had hitherto had a very peculiar and incalculable advantage—the incalculable advantage of being a persecuted religion. There was something so outrageous to natural justice, something so inconsistent with the very name of the religion we pro- fessed in exposing men to pain and penalties for their religious opinions—there was such a refinement of cruelty in offering, as was some time ago done, to a man as a bribe to desert his religion, his father's property—that it became a matter of honour, as well as conscience, to resist Protestantism. When the Protestant religion, which he reverenced and honoured—Protestant religion, did he say ? he corrected himself—Protestant ascendancy—( Tremendous cheer- inp)—for he drew a great distinction between the Protestant religion and that political faction which Lad so long predominated in Ireland : but when the Protestant religion condescended to appeal to the worst and basest passions of human nature, no wonder you placed a barrier in your way ; no wonder you could not reach the mind of the Catholic, who turmd a deaf ear to a religion which presented itself with divine truth in the one hand, arid the sword of per-

secution brandishing in the other. Ile would not hold a parley with such a religion. Ile was happy to think that the disastrous period hail now passed away, and that religion would no longer have the adventitious aid which in former times it unfortunately acquired.

It was agreed on all hands to preserve a moderate maintenance for the existing clergy— But, he asked, why stop here? why limit and bear down the provision to the present dimensions of a growing Church? Why were they to predict, that because the Protestant religion was low now, therefore it was 'always to remain. so. Give it fair play—relieve it of the disastrous advantages formerly entailed upon it—and he honestly believed it would increase. So strongly did he feel this, that he should consider it his duty to propose a resolution to the effect that in the event of the increase of Protestantism the provision should be enlarged. He understood, on the authority of the Speaker, that this was not the conve-

nient or proper time to propose that resolution : he should reserve it until the prope r occasion; but he hoped before that °widen arrived, Lord John Russell .

would tell him whether he did or did not concur in this opinioa ; because he confessed the point was, in his mind, most material. Mr. Buxton also expressed his regret that the terms of' the motion bad been altered, and the words " general education " substituted for moral and religious education." lie would object to education being offered to Catholics through the medium of the Church— The Protestant Church had been presented to the Catholics again and aeaiu, in so odious a form—so much injustice had positively been done to 'fiat Church itself by connecting it with Ptotestant aseenilaucy—the recollec- tions of old wrongs and insults %vas yet so vivid in the breasts of the Irish people, that they would not receive even the truth at the hands of the Establish- ment. Ile was sure of this; and so sure of it war he, that on that persuasion

he should rest—that to say they would teach the People of Ireland through the medium of the Church, was to declare that, in pint of fact, they would not teach them at all.

It was clear that there was an error somewhere, either with tl:e Protestants or the Catholics— It was the desire of all to remedy it, lurk it where it might. Nothing was so like:v to have that effect as the diffusion of education. Avowing that his object was -the growth of the Protestant ieligion, he thought he advocated the devot- ing this money to the best possible purposes when he would use it to conveit Catholics into Protestants. No man could deny that in the present state of Ireland, the increase of moral and religious as well as general education would be the only mode of destroying those anitnositi2s which had been its bane, and which, prc.ducing great and memorable evils, had occasioned none so deep and desperate as that a interposing a barrier in the way of the propagation of the religion of the Bible.

Mr. Ilonace Twiss spoke in opposition to the motion for some time ; when he was obliged to give way, amidst calls of " Question !" and much interruption.

Lord CLEMENTS briefly, but earnestly, supported the motion.

Mr. Boiernatee and Mr. O'CoNNELL rose together. The former caught the Speaker's eye, and commenced :Apeaking ; but the house (especially on the Opposition side) was determined not to listen, and the cries of " Question ! " and " Oh, oh ! " were loud and unceasing. 31r. llue.rinvicx insisted on being heard, and threatened to move an taljournment, and to " stand on his privilege." This threat only pro- duced laughter, and more loudly-vociferated cries of " Question !" _Mr. Bortbwick then entreated attention, but could not obtain it ; and le sat down after uttering a few sentences, and declaring that if Alem- hers " made a noise as loud as thunder he would declare his senti- ments," amidst shouts of laughter, and the most discordant clamour.

Mr. O'CONNELL then rose. He at first met with some interruption from the Ministerial benches ; upon which he said that he would sit down at once if he found the House impatient of hearing him, from whatever quarter such natural indications of weariness came. Mr. O'Connell met with no further interruption, save from the cheers which the matter of his speech and the surpassing eloquence of manner elicited. He began with an allusion to the centuries of misgovernment by England, under the consequences of which Ireland groaned. The question to be decided was, whether a different and a better system was to be adopted henceforth. 'lime deci- sion of the House that night would go forth to Ireland as another denial of justice in addition to the hundred thousand she had already experienced, or as an earnest of better things, the first proclamation of a better system. Was the House now prepared to treat Ireland with fair play and justice? Though in England and in Scotland the reli- gion of the majority was the established religion, he did not ask, he did not wish, for the establishment of the Catholic religion in Ireland. He would rather his church relied for support on the Voluntary prin- ciple. In opposing the motion before the House, you should act as Protestants, or as statesmen—on the ground of religion, or on the ground of state policy. " But," he continued, "have you the ground of religion to stand upon ?" " You have for three hundred years used every•instrument you could to con- vert.the people from Catholicism to Protestantism. You have had recourse to

• the power of the State, the power of the sword. You have subjected the people to the cruelty of barbarous penal laws, enacted in violation of the most solemn treaties ever entered into—treaties which have been kept only while it was your interest to keep them, and which you violated when you had the power. This is the history of Protestantism in Ireland. You have given it wealth and strength and dignity ; you have formed for it Bishops, Chapters, Deaneries, and all die gorgeous array of a hierarchy : and you have taken away our churches, despoiled our altars and prostrated our temples: you have, in short, done all you could to make the religion of the people of Ireland that re- lision which you profess to sustain. Think you this could be done in Ireland ifthe Irish Church was not under the protection of England ? "

Pie read some returns of the increase of population in Kerry, to prove the rapid advance of the Catholics in number beyond the Pro- testants, and then referred to Lord Stanley's statement respecting the establishment of a Protestant Church in the immediate neighbourhood of Derrynane Abbey— The noble Lord called Cahireireen a village; he begged that in future he would call it a town. The noble Lord was in error when he stated that the

• service of the Protestant church there had ever been discontinued. He begged 'to say that it bad never ceased to he performed to a congregation of Protestants

• of 60 or 70 in the midst of a Roman Catholic population of 7,000. There had not been a single conversion of a Catholic. But one of the heads of the town, who was the only importer in it, had been a Protestant, and he became a Ca- tholic. Even the clerk of theyoung and nervous curate had died a Catholic. By the way, it was very easy to account for the increase, small as it was, which had taken plaee among the Protestants at Cahirciveen. A cousin- german of his • own had lately settled there; and he had a family of ten children, and a wife and servants, all Protestants. The curate was, however, a man of nerve. This was a great merit, but he had other considerable merits. He was rector of of Dingle, a place which he visited two or three times a year—at the Awing- • neason ; but his flock never saw him at any other time. But this gentleman's activity was also a theme of praise, and the praise was undoubtedly deserved. lie collected the rents of Sir William Blennerhasset, and he collected the tithes for a couple of clergymen. He was also a magistrate, and a more active ma- gistrate it would be difficult to find. Now, here was a specimen of what might be (lone by nerve. If they went on in this manner making converts, they would be astonished to find their cribs so full. . He was convinced, and be could produce facts to justify his comic- fixed und sufficient income, and deprecated the idea of gaming converts tron, that the plan of .converting the landlords into tithe-proctors to a religion by exhibiting its ministers in poverty. Htt believed that would only occasion resistance to tents. The motion afforded sonic the act of Henry the Eighth intended to promote education in co:inmost prospect of being saved from this danger. He enied thit11 their &If of powerthe Irish Catholics had been persecutors', and ieferre4 to the well-known fact of the protection afforded in Dublin to seventy Pra- tes ta n t s who escaped from the persecution of Queen Mary. The wrongs of Ireland had evan excited the indignation of Dr. Johnson. He would rend the passage he referred to, front the pages of Boswel/. " Roswell; Pray, Mr. Dilly-Umnyhter ; ilpou whidi Mr. O'Connell, looking over to Lord Stanley, said" Oh ! how I wish our modern MN would see that Ireland is in Mk unnatural state, tied that the usinor:ty are exercisiteg such severity against the mat- urity who are Cat holies !j- Pray, Mr. Dilly. how doe,: Itr. Leland's II istory of Irelatal sell? -Johnson (bursting bath sub generous inslignafren) : The Irish are in a most uninstund state. for we sett there I he minority prevailing over the maj.srity. There la no instance, even in the Ten Perseeutions,of such seterit v as that w hich the Protestants of Ireland have exercised against the CaOadieS. w'e sell them, as Sr o, liave tittered them, it would be above.board ; to punish Ilion' by confiscation, and other penalties, as rebels. is monstrous injustice."

Mr. O'Connell continued- . " You cannot sea us, you cannot conquer us ; you ielglit then to do us jast ice. There is an ()wiling foe you to du I hat jostice. You will be told I ex uggerate opinions, and that am disposed to repeal the t• MAI. How then are von to reconcile Ole Union to the Irish People ? Is it Isy wresing to do them justije? Are y on to fortify the lIepvalerg. 13) tenhig 0 hs !wide or Ireland that they are to lippeal to the Pailiament in v.lie? NI y opinion ir C•N Durable to iteral ; but I am really to ghe the Union a fair I r iii. Yon net IT have done us justice, I um told that this Iluilse can govern Ireland a; a...11 a; an ItiAl Parliament could-do:et all it to me. boot show it to me. (Cheat.) The right honourable Baronet the Member for Cuml.erlatill quoted opinions of mine, at a moment when I so is rather too much occupied elsewliere. A little generosity might Ins% e beets exhibited, considering the way in w hich I In ;IA occupied just then ; list I dismiss that speech. I do not disavow the opinions he has referred to-they ary- t•tnoig-th,■ are, if you will, extreme. but do y on not too • that nothing rsiltuible has ever yet bees' sestaitell from a I;overnment t•xcept by no rompannise ? No man has ever yet succeeded to the full extent of an extrisue opinion. Robespierre and Marla, a ho governe by the guillotiae, and w ere supported bv 0 million of subtle' s, so far from sue- ceeding in their theorie.s. contributed in t he end In establish a more iron despotism than they bad overthrown. I am i really, %% Hera any visdation of my own opinions, to ac- cept a compromise, which will commence by doing jus:ice. You Is sve now Ireland in I he throes or agony at beholding the Orange II sg 64z:test-) ou have her horrified at the Si ILL' of a government and that faction combined. Ireland is in that state that these never yet was 40 more propitious period for conciliating her. We ask not that they should be our slaves; but they shall not be 101 r masters. You met the ap- pheatioo for the repeal of the Union, Hot by a direct negative, not by the ',mire:, question. but by a solemn resolution, pledging the Lords, the Conimons, awl the King, that they woul,t tts justice to Ireland. 'rhe last House of Commons, I will do them the jts,t ism to sae, took the first step to redeent that poetise wit h respect to tithes. The Melbonrne Adis l i ll istratiou w ere determined upon doing that justice. I now appeal to this House to tell the Peoplo of Ireland. mho are anxious, who are ready to be conciliated, that you desire to place them in a Stale of piditieal equality, in every respect excepting this, the Oving alone shilling of money t our church. Our cinindi is linpolkited li the matinnOti of unrighteousness; ands it is no less Alt:scions for the purposes of the Pample, and the hierarchy has remained unIsroken. The Voluntary prineipb• has answered every purpose. We desire no adul- terous COnneSion with the State. We repudiate it. We cull upon you to adopt this resolution, and that if there be a surplus it should be employed for the purposes OC education. Educate every body, and truth and religion will have fair play. Refuse this nastiou, after four slays' debate, and then scud to Ireland paltry excuses, pitiful pretences, and rhetorical flourishes, and mark tl:e result. Will those who have called for " measures, arid not mm," do any thing which can be so totally inconsistent xith the settled prindples of justice aud of political economy ?"

Sir ROBERT PEEL said, it was because he agreed with Mr. O'Con- nell in believing that the decision of the House that night would go forth as a proclamation to Ireland, and unless the House acted with peculiar circumspection and caution, tvould inspire the Catholics with false hopes, and the Protestants with alarm, that lie felt anxious to speak, even though he knew the attention of :Members must be wearied - out, and every argument that could be used had already been urged " with the utmost felicity and power. He would pass over all the per- sonalities of the debate—all tine sarcasms, all the allusions : he dealt not in criminations and recriminations; he did not wish to gain a petty, paltry triumph over u political opponent, by quoting scraps of speeches from Hansard or the Mirror qf Parliament : he did nut pretend to be infallible himself, or to place much reliance on the infallibility of others. Ile contended that the proposal to diminish or increase the revenues of the Irish Church, according to the increase or diminution of the Protestant population, was the worst possible proposition. It would give the Catholics a direct interest in preventing the increase of the sect, which, it is asserted, tyrannizes over them. Before this motion was brought forward, Ireland was convulsed. There, " Hot, cold, moist, and dry,

Contend for mastery ;

But ytai threw Chaos in I"

He maintained that to apply Church property to other than spiritual purposes, was to violate the act of Union, and the act of Catholic- Emancipation, by which it was implied that no invasion of the pro- perty of the Establishment would be attempted. Mr. Ward bad ar- gued as if it was incumbent on the House to apply any surplus that might arise from the correction of the abuses of the Church to secular purposes- " The noble Lord who introducet1 the subject said he would not enter upon tho question of the inviolability of Church property, which involved long disputes; that fa short it was a Serbonian bog. in which many unfortunate logicians had sunk. I think, the noble Lord acted wisely in coming to that detemination. The honourable Mere. bet for St. Allan's. however, said boldly, that notwithstanding the warning of ther noble Lord, ho would plunge into the bog and endeavour to reach the other side; but Ohio ill success of the honourable Member has determined me not to follow Isis example, I watched the course of the honourable Member, and saw him, with great pain to him- sidf, no doubt oppressed with the weight of his own arguments floundering in the middle of the bog, with Bacon in one hand, and four or five authorities in the other, from which be never emerged whilst I remained in the House. I have no doubt, as L• said before, that the cause of the honourable Member'. mishap was his being encum- bered by the weight of his own arguments. it gentlemen will comae down to di.coess questions in this House with accumulated extracts heaped up iron) the time of Noah to" the present day, they must expect to meet the fate which hums befallen the honourably Member for St. Alban'., and to be ingulphed in a bog."

only with the Protestant Church. The original terms of Lord John Russell's motion justified the endowment of the Catholic clergy.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL—" I changed the terms of it, from fear that such a construction, not the true one, would have been put upon it."

Sir ROBERT PEEL said, there was ground, however, for the construc- tion. It was plain, from the speeches of the Opposition, that if they were consistent, they must seek to establish the Catholic Church in Ireland. He was sure that Mr. Hume was too manly and sincere, if be spoke at all, to pretend that this was to be a settlement of the ques- tion. He had himself been acetsel of being in the rear of improve- ment ; but he was sure that any statesman who acted on the principle of moving a head of the spirit of the age, would only excite a prurient desire of change in the country. If the resolution were to be carried, he would refuse to act upon it. He was sure Lord John Russell had been pushed forward in this affair, contrary to his better judgment. Even now, it would be better to postpone the decision of the House. He was willing to help Lord John Russell out of his dilemma- " If you think it right that a bill should be brought in on this subject, yott your- selves may move such resolutions as you shall think fit. I will give every facility; I will, without optatsition, let you bring in a bill, let it be read n first time, and postpone the discussion until after Easter. (" Hear, hear 1" and "Oh. oh !") I was showing a =ode by which, without any unworthy concession, you might have got rid of the difficulty under which I am convinced the majority of you must he labouring. (Cheers and laughter.) I really think you ought to be infinitely obliged to me. fur the suggestion."

If the Opposition, however, were determined to push the question, Ise would assume the useful office performed by a slave in former times- " You talk of your supremacy—of your power to control the Executive Governtnent. Let me whisper in your ear, that although you are triumphant here—though you are enabled to fetter our measures in this House—yet the power you exercise does not ex- tend without these walls with the intensity with which it operates within. Yes, in the performance of this function, I have taken upon myself the part of the ancient slave- ! am demonstrating to a triumphant conqueror the vanity of human wishes, and the instability of mortal triumphs. We may be weak here; but this I tell you again, respectfully, but with a firm conviction of its truth. that there is a public opinion which exists independent of majorities—which is not controlled by votes—which it is essentially necessary to possess, in addition to mere majorities in this house. I never felt more convinced of any thing than I do of the truth of what I have been stating; I never felt more convinced of any thing titan I do of this truth, that the public opinion will not sanction—it will with its submission, but it will not with its ap- probation sanction—your efforts, even if they are successful, to throw impedinteuts an the way of the useful measures of Government. It would sanction your declara- tion of a want of t.onlidence; and if that declaration is meant to be implied by the -course you are now pursuing, why don't you declare it in your speeches?"

He then mentioned the course he should pursue-

* I give you notice, that I intend to object to the resolution in Committee, and I in- tend toohject to the communication of that resolution to his Majesty. Hot if yon signify your intention to obstruct the progress of that measure, the principle of which I have propounded, and to which principle I must adhere, then I do say, that such is the 'necessity that exists for the settlement of that question—I mean the Tithe question in Ireland—without further delay, that if you mean to insist that that question is to be settled upon your own principles, I confess that I cannot conform to it. If you declare that you will not consent to the principle which I have laid down, then I shall consider that declaration as such an iudication of the feelings of this !louse as, with my sense of duty, will render it impossible for sue to remain in that situation which I have now the honour to MI."

Lord JOHN RUSSELL then spoke in reply. After defending his own conduct and that of his party from the charges brought against them, he avowed his resolution not to take Sir Robert Peel's offer of permission to bring in a bill.

" I should, indeed, be Weak, if—having been a member of a Ministry, which would have proposed a bill to Parliament upon this subject early in the session, and which was prepared to hasten the labours of the Commission as much as possible—I were 110w to consent to wait until the end of May or the beginning of Joe, and then intro- duce some balm- other upon the subject. And what would bet he consequence? W hy, when I haul taken considerable pains in framing a bill—when the right honourable Baronet haul got his Supplies, anti obtained all he wanted—(Losd cheering)—he would have told me some day, on the third reading, or perhaps when it first went up to the House of Lords, that all my time and all my labour were lost, for it was the intention of his Majesty next day to prorogue the Parliament (Renewed cheering.) Sir. I will nut be so deceived ; I say that before we come to a decision upon the Tithe Bill, it is abso- lutely slid imperatively necessary that we should know whether the principle of ap- propriation will be sanctioned. I confess that for my own part I am not disposed to vote for any Tithe Bill in which the principle of appropriation is not recognized. I am not prepansl to support any Government which, its default of a Tithe Bill of this nature, shall continue to use military force in the collection of tithe in Ireland."

He was willing to adopt, in Committee, the alteration suggested by Fowell Buxton, and to make provision for the restoration of churches and ministers when they should be found necessary. The House divided :

For the motion 322

Against it 269

Majority 33

The House then went into Committee. It was moved that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again the next day.

Sir ROBERT PEEL suggested the propriety of postponing the further diseussion•till Monday. He was certain that, after a four days' debate, terminating at that late hour, it was more convenient to postpone it. lie would throw no obstacle ill the way by proceeding with the Com- mittee of Supply.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought the full discussion the subject had received was a strong reason for proceeding without any delay.

Mr. FINCH said, many Members wished to speak, and the debate would last three nights more. (Cries of" Oh, oh 1") Lord EBRINGTON was against delay.

Mr. RICHARDS would divide the House on the postponement of the iaelmite to Monday. He had an amendment to propose. He bad been taunted by the Opposition party on this paltry resolution.

Mr. HUME was for proceeding without delay.

Sir ROBERT PEEL said, that the arrangement was a matter of perfect indifference to him ; but it would be most convenient to other Members to postpone the debate.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL could not help feeling that he ought to pro- ceed as soon as he could. (Loud cheers, and cries of" To-day!"

After a few words of complaint from Lord SANDON, that so large a minority should be so treated by the majority, it was carried that the resolution of Lord John Russell should be brought forward in Com. rnittee on Friday. The House adjourned at half-past three in the morning.

The House went into Committee last night, after a few words from Sir ROBERT PEEL; who hoped that in case the debate was adjourned, he should be allowed to advance the Mutiny Bill a stage, and take a vote of Supply on the Navy Estimates, on Monday, as he could assure the House that very great inconvenience would ensue from the delay of that portion of public business.

Mr. BERNAL having taken the chair, a long and desultory debate ensued.. It was commenced by Mr. Fiseli ; but almost immediately on his rising to speak, there was a rush of Members out of the House, and for several hours it was very thinly attended. The other speakers were Mr. ANDREW JOHNSTONE, Colonel CONOLLY, Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD, Mr. WYSE, Mr. SHAW, Sir ROBERT BATESON, Lord CASs TLEKEAGII, and Lord SANDON ; but there was nothing of the slightest interest in the rambling discussion.

Mr. ANDREW JOHNSTONE excused his absence from the division of the previous night, although approving of the principle of appropria- tion, on the ground that Lord John Russell's motion did not do jos- tice to the Established Church, of which he was an attached member. He protested against the vote being considered a party vote; and avowed his wish that Ministers " should be allowed fair play, and not be expelled from office by a side-wind."

He had the less hesitation in arriving at this conclusion, when he reflected upon the various shades of opinion which characterized the Members of the Opposition, and when he was convinced that they were hell together only by a rope of sand. (Cheers front the Ministerial side.) If they were strong

enough to carry the question in a constitutional way, they ought to bring it fairly and properly before the Ilouse.

Mr. BORTHWICK moved an adjournment. The Committee divided, and rejected the motion by 178 to 140.

Another desultory conversation followed.

Mr. Boternwics said that he and many Members of his standing wished to address the House. It was finally agreed to by Lord Joust RUSSELL that an adjournment should take place to Monday, on the understanding that the debate was then to take precedence of all other business.

The House then resumed, the Chairman reported progress, and ob- tained leave to sit again on Monday next.

MISCELLANEOUS SUBJECTS.

CHURCH ACCOMMODATION IN SCOTLAND. Several petitions on this subject having been presented to the Lords last night, the Earl of ROSEBERY expressed his belief that a Parliamentary grant would be unpopular in Scotland, injurious to the interests of the Church, and favourable to the cause of dissent in that country. Lord KENYON ob- served, that one class of Dissenters—the Episcopalians—would not object to afford additional facility for divine worship. Lord BROUGHAM thought it probable that the Episcopalians, who considered themselves an offshoot of the English Church, would be favourable to a grant of money. T he Bishop of EXETER denied this description of the Scotch Episcopalians : they were as ancient as the Churches of Scotland and England. Lord BROUGHAM said lie meant no offence : the Episcopa- lians had a feeling with the Church of England : in one respect, in- deed, the two Churches differed—one was rich, the other poor.

LORD BROUGHAM AND LORD PLUNKETT : CHURCH REVENUES. In the course of a discussion which occurred in the House of Peers on Thursday, Lord BROUGHAM disavowed having ever maintained that the surplus of Church property should be applicable only to the education of the people in connexion with the Established Church ! And Lord PLUNKETT, in reply to some observations of the Bishop of EXETER on a preceding evening, maintained the right of the State to make a new appropriation of Church property.

LONDON UNIVERSITY. On Wednesday, Mr. Corry, Controller of the Household, appeared at the bar of the House of Commons, with an answer from the King to the address of the House of Commons on the subject of granting a charter to the London University. Mr. Corry said, he was directed by his Majesty to assure his faithful Commons, " that he would call on the Privy Council for the report of the subject now before them, in order to ascertain upon what conditions such a grant might be acceded to, and to adopt measures for carrying into effect the wishes of his faithful Commons."

DISSENTERS' MARRIAGES. On Tuesday, a petition from Hull having been presented by Mr. Herr, against that part of the Marriage Bill which prescribed the taking of an oath before the magistrate, Sir Jonx CAMPBELL gave notice that he intended to move the omission of the clause in question. Sir W. FOLLETT (Solicitor-General) said, Sir John might save himself that trouble, as the clauses no longer formed part of the bill. Mr. JAMES KENNEDY then gave notice, that on the motion for the second reading of the bill, he should move that it be read a second time that day six months.

LEICESTER ELECTION. Mr. GLADSTONE moved, on Tuesday, that the order for considering the petition against the return of the borough of Leicester be discharged ; on the ground that Mr. Burbidge, the Town-Clerk of Leicester, had not been able to ascertain distinctly who Mr. Thomas Stokes, hosier, whose name was substituted as a surety for that of Mr. Babington, really was. It was urged in reply to this, that there was only one Mr. Thomas Stokes, hosier, in Leicester ; that Mr. Burbidge knew him perfectly well, as he was the leader V the party m the borough opposed to Mr. Burbidge ; and that this ignorance was feigned.

After some discussion, the consideration of the matter was post- poned to the next day ; when the House decided, by 216 to 200, that the order for the consideration of the petition should be discharged.

INVERNESS.SHIRE ELECTION. Mr. PRINGLE moved, on Tuesday, that in consequence of the death of Mr. Macleod, the petitioner against Mr. Charles Grant's return for Inverness-shire, an additional fortnight should be allowed the electors to petition. But, after some opposition from Mr. J. A. MURRAY and Mr. WYNN, the motion was withdrawn, and the order for considering the petition was discharged.

DROGHEDA ELECTION COMMITTEE: SIR ROGER GRESLEY. Lord HOTHAM complained, last !night, of the unexplained absence of Sir ROGER GRESLEY from the Drogheda Election Committee. While he was speaking, Sir Roger himself entered the House, and occasioned some laughter by his evident unconsciousness of being himself the sub- ject of the discussion going forward. Sir ROGER. GRESLEY apologized, standing at the foot of the table, in a very contrite tone and manner; and declared, that after leaving the House in the morning in " a vie- leet perspiretion:" he bed " a shivering-fit," which quite incapacitated him from attending to his duty on the Committee. Sir ROBERT PEEL said that Sir Roger must attend in his place and make a formal excuse eas Me • 'ay. Several Members thought this unnecessary ; and:it was ameed .ert Sir Roger should formally apologize at the time. He was about ti take the oath when Mr. HUME and other Members said a declaration was sufficient. Sir ROBERT PEEL insisted upon the oath being taken. So Sir Roger Gresley repeated his story on oath, and was excuted by the House.