Debatcd nub protect:tined iu Varliamtnt.

I. THE IRISH MUNICIPAL BILL.

Petitions from various places were presented to the House of Peers, on Monday, praying their Lordships to agree to or dissent from the Irish Municipal Bill, as amended by the Commons. It appeared that the latter class of petitions in no instance proceeded from public meet- ings. Several Peers delivered short speeches, on the occasion thus. offered of delivering their sentiments on the measure about to be con- sidered. The only one that requires to be noticed, as it was frequently referred to in the debate that followed, was that of Lord WICKLOW; who said, that he could not concur in the original bill, and also disap- proved of the alterations which the Peers had made in it, and had therefore abstained from voting. lie hoped that the consideration of the question would be put off, and the Corporations allowed to remain in their present state for another year ; and that, in the mean time, Ministers would frame a measure that would preserve the Corporations, (whose existence he considered conducive to the welfare of the inha- bitants of towns in Ireland,) and which would also be acceptable to the House of Peers.

Lord MEt.uourtNE then rose to move that the amendments of the House of Commons be taken into consideration. He commenced his speech by strongly recommending to their Lordships to consider the question calmly, and with that grave impartiality which it required at their bands. He thought that it would appear, if the proceedings out the bill should terminate in a difference between the two Houses, that the Peers had commenced the warfare in rather a rough, rather a rude, Tether an offensive manner-

" My Lords, you sent down to the other house of Parliament a 141I totally changed in its nature, altered in all its provisions, changed in its title, altered entirely in the whole of its principles, hearing no resemblence or similitude to the bill sent up to you from the House of Commons except in its subject mat- ter,—excepting so far that it is also a bill having reference to the subject of municipal corporations. It is impossible that your Lordships can do other than feel that this is., a very strong: mode of proceeding, and one which, if it were adopted towards your Lordships, I feel quite certain, not only that you would refuse to acquiesce in, but that you would reject with the utmost indignation. If your Lordships do not feel on this subject that it is a strong measure you have taken,—if yen do not feel that it is a measure in a great degree offensive in titstlraracter,— if you do nut fowl that it is one in which you could not expect the hli,..0 House of Parliament to acquiesce,—then, my Lords, I will only say, that I view with considerable surptise, a:al can very imperfectly uneerstand, the nature of the judgments which arrive at such a conclusion."

He stated briefly the principal amendments of the Commons; but said that he would nut occupy the time of the House upon details, for if an agreement on the principle could be effected, the details might soon be arranged, and if not, it was not worth while to go into the details. He maintained that the lnds, by insisting upon governing Ireland an a different principle from that adopted towards England and Scotland, and he believed the Colonies in any part of his Majes- ty's dominions, had undoubtedly done that which was very hurtful, and very mortifying to the feelings of the Irish nation- " Now I ask you, is that wise or prudent—is that wise or prudent in what

you yourselves represent to be the state of Ireland at present.' Is it wise or prudent, when the wounds of the people of that: country are just beginning, as it were, in a certain degree to eicatrize, to tear them open afresh, us you must inevitably do, by this course of proceeding ? Even if your Lordships' measures were in some degree preferable to those which we propose, would it be wise to obtain them at this sacrifice? Is it, I ask you, wise or ptudent to do that

although it may not create a great feeling at the present time—which, although it may not create any very violent feeling at this present moment, still will hereafter be referred to and looked back upon and quoted, as an instance in which the 'British Legislature has undervalued and insulted the feelings of the people of Ireland, by making a marked difference between them and the people of any other country ? In the next place, even if you give up

the advantages of local municipal government, which we ask you to preserve, will you give up the advantage of distinction—will you give up the advantage of authority—will you give up the advantage of influence, all of which we have already argued—and I say justly argued—are more highly prized in Ireland than in any other part of the King's dominions? And further, any Lords, will you depot most plainly and decisively from the principles of the Act for the removal of the Catholic disabilities ? My Lords, the main principle of that Act was, that every office of distinction, every office of power, every office of emolument, should be thrown open to the whole people of the country, without any distinction of religion. What do your Lordships do ?— You inm»cdiately make a distinction, and found it most plainly an I distinctly upon the religious differences which exist in Ireland."

It was surptising that Lola: Lyndhurst should be the man to pro- pose the amendments in which that distinction was enforced-

" The noble and learned lord, as we well know, has held very different opi- nions at different times on the subject of these Roman Catholic disabilities. On the tith of Match I:52.7, the noble and learned lord, then Master of the Rolls, male a speech against concession to the Roman Catholics in the House of Com- mons; again, on the 10th of June 18::s3. the made and learned hod, sitting on the woolsack in this Howie, as Lord Chancellor, made another speech, also against the concession of the Catholic claims. The first of these speeches ap- pears to me to be very cursorily and imperfectly reported ; the second is reported more cleat ly and forcibly, and seems to he sanctioned by better authority. Both these speeches gu very strongly against the principle of the proposed concession; the second puts very strongly the danger of concession without adequate seem sty; and it was on this ground that the noble and learned lord refused his assent to the measure. Ou the 311 of April 1820, the noble and learned hod, still sitting as Chancellor upon the woolsack, makes a most decisive speech in favour of the concession of these claims : he puts them upon the broadest principles; and boldly statcs,—"f he Roman Catholic is in my mind in no manner incapable oC extacising the privileges of a five citizen in a fee state: his opinions re- garding civil power and civil matters accord with those of other men ; and in no manner, therefore, do they incapacitate him front discharging the duties of a My Lords, if they lb not incapacitate him from discharging the duties of a legislator, they surely do not inepacitate him from discharging the ditties imposed upon him by this bill. In mentioning the noble and learned lord's speeches, I have tio intent. whatever of reproaching him for the suddenness with which lie changed his opinions : such a reproach would come with but an ill grace from anybody, but perhaps it would come peculiarly ill from me, for I have myself changed my opinions on great public questions. I have felt it my duty to do so, without being actuated by any interested motives; and the allow- ance which I claim for myself I am perfectly ready to make for others. But what I have always observed, and what I have always found, relative to these inconsistencies in public men,—which, after all, are rather awkward features t a man's public life—which always afford pints upon which alacks may air made—which always require defence, the more particularly as they generally

wear at first rather a questionable aspect, and one difficult to be explained,-

what I have always observer!, and found, my Lords, haw been, t the error in conduct invariably is nut in the second step, but in the first. TI e 'first change of opinion is generally right; it is generally founded upon sound principles ; tt is generally called for by circumstances ; but the error is to having rapidly, in early youth, or under the impressions of party, or perhaps in de'mence to the authority of others, pledged yourself irrevocably and voluntarily to measures, to opinions, and to principles, which afterwards, on maturer eons deration, and under altered circumstances, you find it impossible to support or maintain. What I complain of in the noble and learned lord on the present occasion is, not that he changed his opinions rapidly, but that in all the arguments he now advances he seems disposed to recede from those sounder and letter opinions which he professed in 1829, and to return to those which he held in 1828 and and 1827. And, my Lords, whatever may be the di tigers of Ireland at the present moment—whatever may he the feelings of the Roman l'alholic popula • tem—whatever may he the power possessed by the [finnan Catholic clergy—and

avhatevi r m iv be the manner in which they employ those powers, let the noble and I at d depend upon it, that the remedy for these evile is to be frond in other i. eeseres than in a return to any thing like those exclusive principles which prevailed before 1829, and before the Act of 1793."

Ile denied that there was any general expectation—as had been as- serted by Lord Lyndhurst and others—that the Catholic Belief Bil would have immediately and of itself have rendered Ireland tranquil. It would have been quite unnatural for any single measure to have pro- duced such a change. The history of the country did riot justify any such expectation- " Look to our history, my Lords; look to those periods to which we now look back with the to eatest pleaeure, satisfaction, and gratitude. Look to those

event: v, bit h are never mentioned in this Ilituse %vithout praise at d admiration, especially front many noble lords whom 1 see on the opposite side of the House. Consider the Reformation : consider the Revolution. Those events,

when we look back upon them, diminish to a single occurrence; but they were a series of frightful and tremendous events, notwithstanding. To the Rebwma- tion we all look back with the greatest satisfaction and gratitude. 1 toy-

self am sincerely and devotedly attached to the principles of the Reformation ;

I am sincerely and devotedly attached to the spirit of free inquiry and the right of private judgment—principles which I consider characteristics of the Re-

formation—principles which I bust will be maintained by those ft om whom we have a right to claim their support—although feelings of a very different nature may shire' themselves in the bosom of the Church, or of the Universities. What, any einole, were its immediate effects ? Bloodshed, civil discord, dreadful re-

bellion! rebellion in the Easters' and Western counties ; teliellion in the Scot- tish counties, that was successful for months, and superseded fir a time the au-

thority of the King of that day in this country. A set Ws of events occurred, my 1.0:11., will not recapitulate, but which render it to any mind per- fectly clear that the benefits of the Reformation were never really felt or esta-

blishe I until the Revolution. This great event, certainly the bulwark and se-

curity of our liberties, if not the foundation of them, was at the moment the cause of a must dreadful state of political society—father against son, and son against father, and all the ills of a disputed succession. We many call that Re-

volution Id:sates in itself, but we must recollect that it was purchased at the experve a two long, protracted, and bloody wars, under the effects of which we

are suffering at the present day. My Lords, I do not place Catholic Emanci-

pation on the same level, but I consider it as an event of sufficiently similar character to justify me in saying that, judging from history, it was not in human nature, nor was it to be expected, that things would at once subside into that state of peace and tranquillity, the non-result of which has, according to the noble and learned lord, occasioned so much disappointment and surprise."

Ile implored the Opposition not to be led away by the undisputed sway they had in the House of Lords to mistake their position with respect to the House of Commons-

" I beg leave to call to your recollection, for the purpose, if possible, of opening your eyes a little, some fitcts which I really think seem to have escaped your memory. In the year 1834, the Government of this country was dis- solved by circumstances which it is unnecessary for me to repeat. The noble Lot ds, cuutiug into office, chose to do that which I shall ever consider as a most

violent and unjustifiable act—of which, if I were in their situation, I would

not have been the author—the violent and unjustifiable act of dissolving the Parliament. My Lords, I say that if they could not form their Government withoat that House of Commons, they were bound to give up tae attempt. However, they did dissolve that Parliament. A new Parliament was chosen under all the power and, influence, whatever that may be, (much

exaggerated, 1 believe,) which the possession of Government gives. They met

that. Path:tumid : they were in a minority of seven, they were in a minority of ten, they were in a minority of thirteen. This year their minority commenced

at about forty- live ; and it hag grown in the last division to nearly dmible that

number. Now, I ask your Lordships to consider what has been the cause of this progre.siun? I ask you to consider whether it is not owing to your own imprudence—whether it is not owing to your own misconduct—whether it is not owing to your own blindness—whether it is not owing to the manner in which you seek to separate yourselves from the whole body of the people—

from the manner in which you have tried to do every thing that is unpopular, and abstained from doing any thing that has in it the elements of generosity and popalttrity ? I wish you to consider whether this is not the cause ; and,

my Lords, it will be well for you to think of the causes which have occasioned this retrograde movement in the other House of Parliament, while at the sane tittle it is very remarkable that the whole of the intermediate elections have, for the most part, been in your favour."

It had been repeatedly made a subject of boasting by the party op. posed to his Majesty's Ministers, that the majority of the gentry, of the clergy, and very distinctly the two Universities were on their side. He would not then deny the truth of the assertion- " But if you have this support, I implore your Lordships not to be too eArident, and not to rely upon it too far. I have the greatest respect fir the majority of the gentry-1 have the greatest respect for the gentry of this couotry— I have the greatest respect for the clergy—I have no disre- spect for, nor do I feel any thing of ill-will towards the Universities; but depend upon it, my Lords, these interests are not omnipotent in this country ; nor were they omnipotent when other interests, such as those of towns and cities, the interests of commerce and manufactures, the interests of the Dis- senters, and the general opinion of the people, were all as nothing compared with what they are now. My Lords, great measures have been carried in op. position to these interests : whole dynasties have been changed, families have been placed, ay, and maintained upon the throne, in opposition to the majority of the gentry ; must distinctly and certainly in opposition to the great majo- rity of the .-lergy, and in Opposition to the decided opinion of the two Univer- sities. fily Lords, I only pray you not to rely ton much upon this opiuion; earnestly entreat you to unite together the interests and feelings of all classes of society ; and I entreat you to take the first step towards this desirable re- sult, by acceding to these amendments which have been sent up from the Commons, and this ,steitis.ing your weight, your ant hie ite, y n.r Lem er, and your dignity in the feelings and affections of the people of Ireland."

Lord LvsoneitsT complained that, instead of explaining the nature of the Commons' amendments to the House, Lord 'Melbourne had devoted a principal pelt of his speech to an attack upon him, and to an exposure of his inconsistencies in regard to the Catholic question. lie would only say that he acted on that question with some of the most honourable and able men in the country, who after calm consideration had decided upon conceding the Roman Catholic claims as the only means of preserving the peace of the empire ; and it (mold not be said that they acted upon interested motives, as they knew perfectly well that the consequence of their so acting would be to bring the Whigs into power. Ile would repeat the assertion, that the consequences of passing the Cathelie Bill were the teverse of those anticipated front it by itsatithors und supporters. With regar I to the question before the Boise, Lord Ale lbourne had tell them to disregard threats and intimi- dation ; but the whole of the latter part of his speech consisted of threats and %earnings; :I: elitist venturing to oppose the House of Commons. Ile had every re.-Feet for the ! louse of Commons; but he believed that the I louse of Lords at that time represented the People no less than the other I louse. Ile considered it certainly to be their duty to give ever t• ti easaire tcbich had been sanctioned by the I hoist. of Commons their full via &lila rate attention ; and such had been the emu se adopted in regard to the bill before them. Ile went on to expatiate un the attack made upon himself by Mr. Sheil, Mr. O'Connell, and Lord John Russell- .. The first of my aemesers in order of time was a gentleman, a Member of the other [louse of Pal ii•nrent. who, immediately lifter the hill was sent down to the (whet House, was scut off to Ireland a, an apostle of agitation, for the utirpoe: of ereathet, a movement in that countly. Meetings were called, reso- lutions were prep tied, justice to Ireland-3w usual topic—equality of civil institutions, ins, and thaw words to whirl, the noble viscount has alluded, aliens by rIeseent or alici:s by blood, or some exprtssion of that kind, were descanted on, for tl:e put pose of g, tting up a little agitation. nifortunately, however, the plot did not entirely succeed. Rut that gentleman, who hail been used to 11:i,siOnS Of this kind, was not without his resources ; fur he threw another ingrediett t ithes—into the cauldron, which he ktnew was powerful in its opera- tion. Ile erered a little bustle for a day or two. which !weever, happily, has since iu a ,teat degree subsided. I bear no enmity to that honourable Mem- ber ; 13! W.Is labouririg in his vocation : and if I lead shown any enmity to him, it would have i.ulisided almost in a moment, from the great pleasure 1 have derived over and uver again Item his light and brilliant eloquence awl, above all, from the almedant rimusentent he has lately afforded me by his felicitous explarations, and the extram din try drollery by which the end of that statement was avromp tided. That gentleman was my first accuser. The next, my Linde, was a ii.en of a vety dilfremt stamp, for nothing can be more strongly vont rastial with the well-temporal weapon of the gentleman to whom I have refertrl, than the reuse, lusty blade (if I may so express myself) of his asso- ciate. I have not powers of description adequate to the task of painting him, but I wish I were for the moment possessed of those which the noble viscount SO eininotitly enjoys. I shall never forget, and your Lordships, I ant sure, lie% er t. ill. tire pot t: ait which h.: drew on a former night of this person— bow he appeared as in mystery, and heralded by portents, visiting our planet once telly in the revelutions of a century ; those who gazed upon bias doubtful whether he ought to be considered as a benevolent or as a malignant genius—, wheffier a spirit of health or goblin damned.' According to the quotation of the noble viscount, the noble liar! seemed almost as if he would say, wrapt in a spirit of adjuration, pursuing the qttotation—' I'll call thee king, father!' I wish I possessed the !totems which the noble viscount dis- played upon that occasion but this person has so scathed himself, has so exhibited himself in a variety of postures, not always the 'mist seemly and decent, amidst the shouts and apiitinse of a multitude, that all description upon my pant is totally unnecessary. But these exhibitions have not been bootless to him he has received lavish emit ributiows3 may say (Leal, from nnenons of the present Government ; while at the same time he has wrung, by the mid ot the priests, the miserable pittance from the hands of the starving and famishing peasant. This pm ..sin has in every shape and form insulted your Lordships, your Lordships' ;louse, and many of you individually : he has denounced you, doomed you to destruction, and then, availing himself of your courtesy, he comes to your Lordships' bar, be listens to your proceedings ; he marks and measures you as his victims—. Etiam in Benetton venit —notat, designatque °culls ad eastern unitniquenique nostrinn."The person to whom these ex- pressions were applied had at least one redeeming quality....witness the last scene of his life, it you read it in the description of the historian. Alinuful of his former elevation and dignity, so able, so politic, so eloquent, he ever retained the virtue of courage."

Lord John Russell was his third accuser,—if he had really uttered the words ascribed to him ; but Lord Lyndhurst could scarcely believe it possible that that noble lord would avail himself of their Lordships' courtesy, come to the bar of their House, collect words spoken in the heat of debate, and then go to the other House and denounce the speaker of them. Besides, had be done so, his right honourable friend who occupied the chair would have prevented so gross an infringement of the rules of the !louse; he was sure that the predecessor of the present Speaker would never have allowed a Member of the other House to be attacked behind his back fOr words spoken in the course of debate. After dwelling upon this point for some time, Lord Lynd- hurst went on to defend the expression, " aliens in blood, aliens in lan- guage, aliens in religion." He would not flinch from the description he had given of the two great parties in Ireland ; and justified it by reference to the poetry of Captain Rock, the speeches of Mr. O'Con- nell, and other agitators, and a ballad sung in the streets of Kilkenny on the day that a man was tried for murder, one stanza of which was the following,

" The day of ransom. thank lloaven ! is dated, These cared dannotts must I put t he laid; It's now heSelq",i://1 and proud invaders Shall PO the weight ot"each lebb hand."

With reference to the bill now again under their Lordships' conside- ration, he remarked that the amendments which they had made in it had been unfhirly described. It was said that they had made a new bill of it. They had not done so-

.. What have we done? We have assented to the first part of the measure— bill? (4 Hear, hear !") But it has been said by the noble viscount that a vast number of new provisions have been introduced into the bill by your Lordships, and this point is dwelt on in the reasons of ilia Commons. But it followed as a matter of course, the moment we eccided th ,t new corporations should not be treated, that all the details of the bill applicable to the construction of those cor- porations should be expunged, and the clauses directly or indirectly bear ing on that matter amounted to no less than 60. Again, then: was property belonging to the Corporations, the management of which remained to be provided fur, and fifty or sixty ehnees s'iVEC necessary for that purpose. But it is not the uumbor of new clauses that can make a bill an original one, it is the object to which the-e clauses are directed."

He defended the alteration in the title of the bill. Their Lordships' books were full of instances of such alterations : he would mention MC- " A hill came up hoot the other llonse of Parliament for disfranchising the haroagb of 4 ;railipound, and Mr transferriog the right to return two Alembers to the IS of Leeds. That Lille then, emit:aced two objects: and what was it that your Lordship.: did ? You adopted the first part, and rejected the accord ; awl gave to the county of York the right of returning two additional :4. I rf course a col respooditig alteratiou was made is the title of the Lill; a!,11 when it 1V4•1t duwrr to the I louse of Commons its reception was ob- itetid to on the giti l on evhich these reasons are founded. I lowever, a noMe had got up and said that the hill as sent to the Lords was directed to two objects—the disflatichisement of I :taming:nil and the transferring of the right M. representation to lands ; the other !loose had assignee to one part of the bill, and had substituted something in ;dam of the second ; and he was of opinion that the Lill, us amended, should pass. Who was that individual? 'the noble lord who is ouw the leader of the 3linisterial patty in the other House of Parliament."

With regard to the lh.r,hy case, cited by Lord Ilolland, the objec- tion of the Commons was not to the alteration of the title, but to the introduction of new enactment, in a manner contrary to law, and calcu- lated to lead to au unfair inference in regard to the !loose of Commons. lie considered that severul of the amendments of the Commons were very objectionable,—especially that whit h forced upon twenty towns in Ireland the 9th of I icorge the Fourth. They should be cautious bow they compelled towns in which there was no corporate property to adopt an expensive system of municipal government, under an act which only seven towns in the country had adopted, though it was offered to all. But tile chief ground of his opposition to the bill was, that it would establish institutions infinitely mot mischievous than those which it destroyed. The sole business of the new corporations --for they would have nothing else to do—would be to " agitate, agi-

tate, agitate." He was there as one of the guardians of the interests of the empire. lie had considered the subject with calmness, caution, and to the best of his ability ; and he felt it a duty he owed to his country to oppose the motion of Lord Melbourne.

The Marquis of Chas:Imam; supported the motion with much

earnestness. Ile reminded their Lordships, that the question W415, whether their power and privileges should prevail against the power of the people of Ireland, backed by the people of England. Though as sincerely ottached as any of their Lordships to their rights and privi- lege, he loved the liberties of his native country more ; but in voting for the bill that night, it was his consolation to know that he was also giving the best vote in his power tor the upholding of English influ- ence in Ireland.

Lord FALKLAND spoke in favour, and Lords lireox and WiNcuiLsEA against the motion.

• Earl Gary then rose to address the House. Ile disclaimed being actuated by party or personal motives. A great part of his life had been passed in political contention, but lie had done with it for ever; and his object was to allay heat and animosities, which on this as on other occasions had been but too prevalent. Ile would ask their Lord- ships, whether the course which they had pursued in regard to the bill had been such as was likely to tend to the pacification of Ireland, and the gi fiend tranquillity of the empire ? Ile dissented from the asser- tion of Lord Lyndhurst, that they had merely altered some of the details of the bill. Ile would put it to their Lordships, whether, in _rejecting the second part of the bill, they bad rot rejected the essential principle of the measure ? To destroy, not reform the corporate insti- tutions of Ireland, was contrary to every principle of sound policy and justice. It was most extraordinary that such a proposition should pro- ceed from the other side of the House. He would not enter into the details of the measure, but it did strike him as very singular, that the new corporations were considered dangerous because they would have few functions to discharge. They were afraid of agitation, bolt what except agitation would be the consequet cc of refusing to pass this bill ?■••••• " The Wilde of Ireland are a generous, a brave, and a highly exciteable people. My lands, 1 will not speak of individuals. It has been too much the practice of late to do so in this House. Hut this I will say, that if there are any persons who-e objects are hostile to the peace and tranquillity of Ireland, I do not know tow year Lordships could better consult the views of such persons, than by giving them the means of appealing to the sensibility of the people of Ire- land, and of pm smiling them that they are not treated with equal justice. Anil here, my Leads, I beg leave to guard myself against king supposed to join in the commonplace declamation err this subject—that until the present motnent justice was never done to Ireland. fir answer to that declaration, I refer those who will exercise theit leason to the course which for the last ten years Parlia- ment has pursued—I will not say of concession, for I dislike the word, but of originating discussions, and passing laws, the ohjeet of which has been to give to the people of Ireland the rights of which tiny had hitherto been deprived, and whWli they claimed on the ground of justice. To me, therefore, it appears to be most unjust to say that now, for the first time, justice is done to Ireland. I am quite sure that my noble friends in his Majesty's Government disclaim any pattieipation in such a sentiment. I am quite sure they will not deny, that while I had the honour to be at the head of that Government, a constant anxiety existed to adopt such measures as might du that very justice to Ireland which it is now said was never contemplated till this moment. I say, my Lords, that if it be the agitated state of Ireland which deters you from doing what you would otherwise do, if you wish that agitation to cease, if you wish the people of Ireland to become tit for the full enjoyment of finis rights, pass this bill. To refuse to do so, will be to lead to ireah agitation—to fresh ex- citement—to render the people of Ireland ten times Mine unfit for the enjoy- ment of their rights—to render the evil, which is now comparatively slight and temporary, incurable and interminable; until at last you will find that that which you are new called upon to do as an act of justice, you must do as an act of necessity, ;shell it will entirely fail in producing that salutary effect which at

nt

the prese moment may reasonably be expected from it." lie would be the last man to yield to threats or intimidation. On that point he adhered to the sentiment which he had formerly etpressed, and which had been frequently quoted, sometimes with censure, some- times with approbation, that he would support the order to which he belonged, against any unjust attack—against any attempt, by undue means, to make the Peers do that of which they disapproved- " If, for instance, tinder the name of a reform of this House, a proposition were to be made which would be in its consequences not reform but destruction to this House and to the Monarchy, and, if all experience be not false, to the freedom of the people, I should be found in the ranks of its most deter mined opponents. But is there any such danger in the present case ? I sin sure that if your Lordships will reflect a moment, you will acknowledge that there is not. The bill which was sent up to you from the House of Commons your Lord- ships entirely changed. You altered its preamble, you altered its principle; and notwithstanding the gloss of the noble and learned lord, you altered nine- tenths of its enactments. My Lords, such a proceeding as this I can never understand but as a total rejection of the measure, and a substitution of another measure entirely different in principle and character. This is not exactly the way to conciliate. Nor dill you alone scud the bill back to the House of Conn. mons entirely changed. You changed it by the introduction of a principle which, after several discussions and divisions, the (louse of Commons hail re- jected. Now, my Lords, when you say that the feelings of this House ought toss. be respected, you should at the same time respect the feelings of the other llouse."

After dwelling for some time on this point, Earl Grey recommended that a middle course should be adopted in order to put an end to the dif- ference between the two Houses- " I have not been unwilling to consider how far the bill might be advanta- geously modified. There is one suggestion which I will venture to offer to your Lotdships,—for which suggestion I alone ant responsible, not having com- municated to my noble found my inteution of making it, and not having any reason, except the conviction of its expediency, to believe that it will be ac- ceptable to either side of your Lordships !louse. In the bill, as it lost left your lordships' House, and as it now stands, there is a clause regulating the voting for Auditors and Assessors. Now, in another bill, ordered to he brought into the House of Commons by Lord John Russell, the Attorney-General, and Mt. Vernon Smith, a bill for regulating Charitable Trusts, there is a clause providing that every person entitled to vote shall vote for only half the number of trustees. I wish your Lordships would consider if it might not be practi- cable to add clauses to this bill of a similar character, but bearing on the elec- tion of Town-Councillors, which would in a great degree remove the objections to the measure which spine of your Lordships entertain. Suppose, for instance, that every voter was restricted to voting for only half the number of Town- Councillors. The consequence would be, that there could be no exclusive party established, but that a minority in any corporation, of whatever per- suasion they might be, could retain their due share of influence. My Lords, I believe it is an overstatement to say, that even if the bill were can red in its present shape. its effects would be exclusive, because it would be only .a transfer of authority. from one party to another. .Many of the corporations in Ireland are divided into wards, and in many of those wards the Protestants would have the preponderance. I runt told that even in Waterford, where the Catholics are most numerous, the elections would not be of that exclusive character appre- hended. But even if that were not the case, the proposition which I have ventured to throw out would remedy this evil. It Is obvious that if a voter were restricted to vote for only half the Town-Councillors, unless the majority of one opinion could be swelled to two to one, no principle of exclusion mild be established. What I propose, however, is, that the voter should ba restricted to vote for five-eights t f the Town. Councillors. My Lords, I throw out this proposition in the crude and ill-digested form it suggests itself to me ; and, if it meets with your concurrence, I shall suggest that the further consideration of the subject shall be adjourned to a convenient but early day, when clauses can be introduced into the bill to carry it into effect. I shall, however, cer- tainly (until I know how far it may be thought proper to come to an agreement of this sort, in the way of concession) pause before I take upon myself any motion of this sort."

He concluded by earnestly warning the House against following the course they bad already adopted with regard to the Catholic Bill, the Tithe Bill, and other measures,—against delay in granting reasonable requests ; which was sure, as had been the case more especially with regard to the Tithe Bill, to produce augmented demands. If they refused to pass the bill then before them, were they sure that they would not be required next session to go much further, and that the concessions they could now make with honour and credit to their legis- lative characters, would not be forced from them without regard to either?

Lord ELLENBOROUGII complimented Earl Grey on the calm and conciliatory tone of his speech. Ile was of opinion that the propo- sition Earl Grey had made, (which he had seen some time before, though Lord Grey said that he had not communicated it to any one,) might be the basis of a bill which the Peers could accept, if other pro- visions were incorporated with it On several points of detail they were not disposed pertinaciously to insist; and if Lord Melbourne would abandon the present bill, and, after an adjourment of several weeks, introduce another, he thought there would be a prospect of a settlement of the question.

Lord HoLLANn said, that Lord Ellenborough wis willing to concede with a lavish hand in all little minor points, but with respect to the principle, be and his friends would not yield at all. The House of Commons would not give up their principle, mid when they said so, what was the answer of Lord Ellenborough and his friends ?

They sail!, we will grant you a concession upon all the details of the Rica- 4' sure upon which we are variance; but upon this principle, of giving the people of II eland the advantage of local corporations—this principle which you say is indispensable, and which you tell us your will not surrender—spun this principle we will not give in. (Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches, responded to bar the Opposition.) The noble and learned lord says precisely to ghe House of Commons what Alarc Antony said to Ventidius- • I Will allow Oil licence uf free speech,

* i • •

But for your life no word I like not.'

This is the principle ea which the noble baron who last spoke would meet the !louse of Commons. I must, however, do him justice. I must admit that he does not seem to adhere so entirely to this principle as some others by whom he is surrounded : for if you consider his speech well, he evidently agrees much more with the noble earl who sits behind him, and who admits that we may consider this measure next year, than he does with others of his patty. Why then, Inv Lords, what are we to gather from this? Why, that all this sturdiness on the subject of principles resolves itself into this= I will not give it up this year, but I hold out to you the chance of my doing so in the next.' This is the von of hope the noble baron holds out—this is the wise and plausible course he proposes, with the view of conciliating the branch of the Legislature with which we are at issue. The only result of such a plan will be general— in every sense dissatisfaction. It will please no ouc. It will not satisfy those who have the principle of the anuihilation of the existing corporations deeply at heart, and who thiuk that Ireland does not deserve to be treated like Eng- land, and to have intrusted to its people the management of their local affairs. And still less will it please those who thiuk that such a principle is founded in justice, and that it is rendered necessary by the preheat state of Ireland that the laws of time two countries in tide, and in every other respect, should be as closely as possible assimilated. Neither of these two patties will the noble lord's proposition satisfy. In fact, my Lords, his plan seems to me to unite all the meanness and pusillanimity of a compromise, with ell the rashness, fully, and obstinacy of pride." (Louel cheers.) He had rend somewhere that the greatest favour fortune could confer on a defeated general was the opportunity of retrieving un error : that opportunity wits now theirs—they could now retrace a false step. Lord Holland then adverted to Lord Lyndhurst', defence of himself and attack on AR. O'Connell— "I must Fay, I loofa-fly and entirely agree with the noble and learned lord ( Lyndhurst ), t hat it is highly unpat ia mentary, improper, and irregular, to allude to what ■tnother does or saws in his absence, and when he can have no opportunity of defending himself if wrongly accused, or setting himself right if misrepresented. I confess, that often in the present and in the former sessions, I have felt great regret that, forgetful of the sob, ipat which some of your Lordships have been tato:time-1y pleased to attach to toy it one--t hat of a " Lord of Order "—I did nut interrupt I up eat many noble lords in the obcrvations they indulged and I confess, that had I in this respect d.scharged my duty, the noble and learned lord who this evening so eloguentiy preached fin bearance, would have come under my ban. sly loran, it woe mm irlt something like sur- prise that I, in the course of the speech of the noble and learned lord to whom I allude—a speech abounding, I must say, in wit, and elegaece, and quotation, but, unfortunately, equally replete with invective and abuse—I say, my Lords, it was with surprise, and indeed with 'egret, that 1 heard in that speech obser- vations rendered cruel, unworthy, and offensive, by the citemustance that they were levelled against a man who, in all probability, was not present, but who, if present, could not rise to defend himself. (Load cirrus.) My Look, in what has consisted oae half of the arguments which the noble and beat tied lend used—nay, what has been the nature of almost every argument used by the other side of the Ilanse timing the last two years. I shall answer my own ques:iun : it has been one continued outpouring of invective and abuse against an unfortu- nate individual, who was not present to defend his conduct. The individual to whom I allude, has been in worth., but in words alone, acre-rd of sedition, dis- respect to the law, nay, high treason itself; and in his acenaation every term of contempt, of scurrility, and of abuse has been raked up with an eagerness worthy of a far inure mmortimv cause. Aly Lords, the person to whom I allude may deal to a great degree in scurrilous language, for aught I know ; but I am sure that others use lang ige of as strong a character in abuse of him, as he can in abuse of any man or thing existing either in reality Or in imagination. It was the boast of Falstaff, that he was nut only witty himself, but the cause of wit in othera. Following his example, loudly may Air. O'Cermell—for I need not say it is to hint I allude—boast, that if he is iudeetaa, improper, and intemperate in the language he occasionally employs, he has the saiisfiettun of mak le e- grave and respect:Ode persons, ex-Judges, amid ex Lord Cimancellmws, arid

other roofs, le:a ned g: Ave parsonages, equally, if not mole so, with himself." (Lloyhter.) Returning to the question before the House, from which he bad diverged, Lord Hedlund coutended, that the effect of the propositions of Lord Lyndhurst would be to establish a despotism of the worst kind in

• Ireland ; but that the congequence of admitting agitators to seats in the _Municipal Council would be to convert them from the line of agitation to that of order and peace. lie had reflected much on this subject, and had found an historical illustration in support of Lis views, to which he would call the attention of the house- " It refers to a city of no less importance than time city of London, and to no less a personage than the celebrated John Wilkes. Now, my Loofa, let us look what was the conduct of that person when unconnected with the Corporation of London and when he was a member of it, and let us see if we may not judge therefrom of the areal of these normal schools of agitation.' I ahall not go through the very long history of the honourable Member's life, though it is very important as regards the history of the times, and let me add, very instructive. It will suffice for me to emoteenee my narra- tive from time period when, after being outlawed and exiled, he returned to this country on the eve of a general election. It pleased hire, outlawed as he was, to set up for the city of London. What was time consequence? De was beaten by a large majority, as might be expected. Upon the poll being declared, the (lover:uncut thought it their duty to take fresh proceedings against hint, and in consequence he was :vacated. Here his triumph commenced. Immediately on his ariest, he commeoced to be regarded as the victim of persecution and the mots, ever ready to assist the apparently unfortunate, having rescued him from time Sheriff, a scene of riot, confusion, and violation of the lame, such as, by the way, no town in Ire-land presents now or heretofore an example of, cows. menaced in the good city of London. The mob paraded him in triumph through Maryletonie, Westminster, Lambeth, Southwark, and Aliddleaex ; in fact, in all parts el the metropolis but time city of Loudon, where the normal schools of agitation prevailed. Shortly after this event he stood for the county of Aliddlesex, where there was no corporation to resist him ; and, although he bore with him the character of a slanderer, a blasphemer, and the insulter of royalty even in the palace, and had thrown the whole country in a state of confusion and uproar, from which it did not recover for ten years, he was for that county returned to Parliament ; and for that county—through the gmes: humour and good sense of Lord North—sat in the Douse of Commons. La. he sat nut only there: he also succeeded iu obtaining a seat in the Corporatior of London, havieg been chosen not only an Aldo-mall but the Lord 3layot of the great metropolis. • Foe II:um et ingots gloria Tenercroma Well, my Lords, in the year 1711, a period of cartrote and horror such as, I believe, finds no parallel in history, followed by in scene of conflagration and ruin which for ever must disgrace tide commtry, took place. This event, though it has been so alleged, was not urgarl on by any Catholic priest, or by any Catholic agitators. No, my Lords, It wits the cry of ' No Popary' that was nearly laying in ashes at that period this peat intoropolia. And to whom did the Government in their emergency have recourae to cheek this scene of bloodshed. To the agitator, the blasphemer, time slanderer of royalty, and the level}[: of good:order amid good institutions—John Wilkes. The then Lad Mayor of Linehan had a constitutional t. lity which prevented him from taking any decided step. and the florae Guards had scruples about matching troops into the city without a warrant front a magistr ate. The civic functionary could not be found, nor was he willing to alga the way rant. An attack on the Bank of England was known to be in contemplation, and the city and all it contained seemed devoted to destruction. Where in this emergency did the Wilkes go?—where but to the incendiary, the outlaw, the blasphemer. Wilkes at once came forward, and on being told that time troops could not march without a warrant, said, Well, they shall have tome. I as au Alder matt 301 a Magistrate of the city of London, and I will nut only sign vou a general warrant, but myself march at the head of the troops acting under it.' Thus, my Loads, did the man who for ten long years they had been abasing day after day in the House of Commons—whom they had described as an agitator, a breaker of the peace—the man whom they had called every bail name, and loaded with every opprobrious epithet, save the city of London from the fury of a mob and the torch of the incendiary. And how was it, my Lords, this armee wily brOlight about in him?—By his becoming connected is ith the Corporation. Ile became not only a pupil in the school of normal agitation, but an actual usher; and the cousequence was, he felt responsible for the honour of his older, and he deter- mined to maintain it. My Lords, theme ate my morals to be derived from this history. There are some, perhaps, peseta who sat in Parliament at tile period to which I allude, and I should not be mull surprised if I now iodic in the presetee: of sonte who turn up the whites of their eyes and affect the utmost horror at the idea of drinking a glass of wine or bowing or shaking hands with au agitator, who did not think it any disgrace to have the good city of London saved by a blasphemer and an abuser of royalty. My Lords, I have not been speaking of Mr. O'Connell, but of John Wilkes, though I admit, mobilo numinc, the same story might be told of hint ; and yet, my Lords, such is said to be time reason for denying to Irelaral the advantages of good government."

The care with which the Peers on the Opposition benches adhered to the bad principle of their amendments, though willing to give way in details, reminded him of a story about some Chinese mattufacturere, which was rather in point-

" An English centleman wanting in dessert set made after mu peculiar pat- tern, sent over to China a specimen dish, ordering that it should he exactly copied for the whole service. It unfortunately happened, that in the pattern dish so sent over, the Chinese manufacturers discovered a crack : the O./Hie- (pence was, that the entire service sent over to the party ordering it, had a crack in each article carefully copied after the specimen crack. Si the noble and teamed lord said, that if this bill were not marked in every part with the CRACK d la Chinoise, it shall be called not according to pattern, and not be accepted at all. My Lords, if we continue to act upon such a pi inciple as this, I do feel that we shall go well nigh to fo felt time respect for our character which it should be our constant aim to perpetuate. ply Lords, notch has been said in reference to alleged menaces directed against this House ae, on the one hand, any thing approaching to menace should be regarded v 'th some de- gree of suspicion, so, mitt the other, judicious and respectful admonitions should not be treated with scorn. There have been men high in rank, in power, anti in talent—Burke, Fox, Chatham, the Duke of Itichniond— who have held it to be their duty to direct strong adinottif s to this Deno., and my Lords, had these adnionitinne been attended to, what stores of gold, what streams of blood would not have been saved to this country. My Lents, toy belief is, that this House is at present safe in time affections of the people ; but still it must not at- tempt to legislate in a spirit of hostility to time people, nor toms far presume upon time affection which I have said I believe the people at large entertain towards us. That affection is still strong in the people's hearts : but I cannot refrain front stating my conviction that time course which noble lord- opposite have so often pursued, and still more the arguments and the language which they make use of in defending that course, are not calculated to give additional strewth to that affection."

The Duke of WELLINGTON would not agree to the bill : he never would consent to place the government of Irish towns in the hands of three-fourths of the people, who were Catholics, t.) the exe•lession of the Protestant mineelity. The inevitable col se pi ee cc of passing the bill would be, the fotenation in all towns of Roman Catholic corporate bodies, to the exclusion of the Protestants, who were now predominant; and to prevent such a state of things, be would abide by their Leed- s:lips' amendments.

The Marquis of WESTMEATH and Lord IVIIalixceiree opposed the motion. It was strougly supported by the Duke of It ICHMOND.

Viscount Ahletoulusie replied. It bad been urged by Lord Lynd- hurst that the late Administration were justified in dissolving the last. Parliament ; that this was a proper and constitutional proceeding on the formation of 11 new 3Iinistry ; that such was precisely the time when an appeal should be made to the country-

" I utmost here declare, that I do not by any means agree with the noble and learned lord in his constitutional doctrine, that a change of Governineot iseces- satily calls for, or justifies, a dissolution of the House of Commons. I beg to say, that I by no means admit that doctrine, and I may add, that when a change in the Government brought us into power, we did not act on that principle. We were able to send the members of our Government before the tropic, and, with the exception of the loss of time noble lord the Member for Devonshire, succeeded in procuring their return ; and I believe it was the conseimiusteees au. telt:tined by the Government which preceded ours of the impossibility of effect- ing that object, that was the cause of their dissolving Parliament iu the begin- ning of the year, which I always considered to he a measure without a justification."

lie maintained that Lord Lyndhurst had in fact repeated, ass by no means explained, time contumelious expressions; towards the Irish people which he had uttered in a former debate-

" I have heard no justification of them except that they are expressions similar to those which have been employed by Mr. O'Connell—that they arc such expressions as those of the use of which he set the w.. m:npie. 1 moat be allowed to say further, that I heard those words in time fit : instance with the deepest concern, considering time !doh character and station of the noble and learned lord, and I hear the repetition of them with still iticreased concern. The noble and learned lord is pleased to say that I have made aim extravagant, speech on the present occasion ; that is cot irely a matter of mate. !entertain a a actly time same impression of his speech. ( Cheers Intiyhtcr.) it apileare to me that if the noble and learned lord desired the ilestruction of tithe property, the destruction of the Irish Church, the repeal of the I'1111(1(1, and the separation of the two kingdoms, he would resort to just that species of exaggeration which he has employed throughout the debate on the peseta subject. The neble and learned lord said that 1 have been urged by others, that I have been compelled by parties out of this House to make the speech which I have :obit...ascii to your lawilshies this evening. In lily own justification, I will tell the nehle and lea' IA lord this—my opinions are my own. I go as far as I tine:, proper, aml I know myself eery little if there is any one in the world, or if there is any poasible motive, that could force me toga further than I thought it proper to go. If the noble and learned lord has heard the contrary from any one else, I beg to inform him it is incorrect; if the noble and learned lord bas come to such a condo; on his own judgment, I beg to inform him hie judgment has de- ceived him on this occasion. And after this distinct disclaimer front me, the noble and learned lord will perceive the propriety of not repeating that impu- tation."

With respect to the proposition of Lord Grey, he confessed that be saw great difficulties in the way of accepting it : still, if it had been received on the other side of the House in the spirit in which it was

offered, he bbotil t have been disposed to consider it serion-ly. But such had not been the spirit of its reception. Ile recommended their Lordships to consider well what they were doing- " The way for you to act k to trust the people of Ireland—the way fur you to art is to trust the great body of the people. It is the only way to govern the people under s popular form of government. If you think there are other evils which may arise, if there be such a state of eirentostanees, then you will find other !rowdies for those evils. hit, depend upon it, you cannot go back to a

hyhtellt of exclusion." (" hear !" and Anal cheers.)

The House then divided :

Fur the motion of Lord Melbourne to take the amend•

musts of the Gounions into consideration— Mese/it ... 75 ProxiLs Against the motion Present ...1 Proxies ... 7s; Anti.111inisterial majority

A Committee was then appointed, on the itiotiull of I.ord ELLEN- BOttotosir, to draw up reusons for refusing to agree to the COI:1111011S' amendments.

On Thursday, Lord EI.1.1:NBOItOUGII presented the report of the C.ommittets7vontaining the " reasons " for their 1,tudships' disagree- ment with the amendments of the (.'oilinions, and moved that the Douse should agree to the " reasons."

1.0r1 11let.eotirNl. then rose, and spoke as follows- " After the opinion I expressed on the former oveasioll, and after the vote which I then gave, it is uniteressiry for me to say that I do not senior in the reasons drawn up by the Committee. I cannot help looking, with coneern at what appears to me to lie the very hasty, rash, awl vtilprollent collItse that aa:as pursued on the former evening ; and the iea,uu, HOW assigned ate altogether insufficient to justify the steps that have beet, t:.lreti. lint aft, r the derided manifestation on the pal* of your Lordships on this subject when it was tinder discussion, it is not my intention to offer any further opposition to tIM, as I

consider, toral-.. course of proceeding. I bcg. that it in iy be Waist distinctly 111041,4mA by your Lordships and by the eelin V. that neither I nor tut~ of illy colleagues, nor any 'mide laid on this side of the Ilona, has been a party to this pnvoceeiling, liar that we ail decidedly disclaimed, eettilemited, and disapproved of the 'imposition row made, and of the rea,ons a hick have been assigned for adopting it."

'file motion of Lord Ellenborough was carried, and a Conference arranged with the Commons ; which on the part of the Lords wan tint- raged by the I /like of 1Vellington and Lords Devon, Shafte.hury, Ellenhorough, Illharneliffo, and Abinger. On the tom' of their Lordships, the Duke of ii'ssrinsisroN reported, Coat lie sated their reasons to the Commons in a ('onuii lee of t "etifercitee ; which was managed on the part oldie Commons by Lord .101111 Russell, Air. Spring I live, and others.

In the !louse of (;onmons, the " reasons " of ties Lerils ter: pre- sented by Alr. SPRING ll)01:, and reall by the Clot k.

Lord Ants: Itessis t. then ruse, ;mil -1 '.1 i;dhors, amidst all:1:kt constant elsraiiiig.

" I rise, Sir. to athlic..5 the the t,- Corporatien Bill, as le:Lured bent the

who a.tre with us ILO ■.1 :ix 111:1% all, r heat a t the as :1,, a 1,, I!,

nivel:Mounts are upon which they it come to a satisl'actoty settlement of this such eircionstatte,s. Among the minor input-tine,- namely, that by which the 1:

II, .

to Ul tiliiik"allarrS IL, 9:11 (`'. :■ I : : it :•.1.:i tia•I‘i.. I CatIIIIIt °Mit to tiOtl, that CI:" is :III •:.:la ;It -• I•

1111t, the Lords Lase star, !, mid repo:. I. • s cry strongly 'mime:hal that statement, that there is taw pi 1..ciple or cm bid in which they ,:e not been nide to concur. 'that is that pi inuiple ? Sit, t hat one prineiple of the hill is the yet v priticipha whirl. gave it rigour that 1111111411k whirl! 111:11!(• it C..11•1-tilit. w ■th the cons/done' ti 111.t111■,15 hese

realms_ ti 11 III the (Tilton'', of w I.M1, we expr en' to ;tit content to the people of the toot's of [retool; ;mil when that one pits rilihe is refused and denied to us, WA 11 hen it is so Orally stated that no Vi1114.1,,ilili

will be made on this point, I can only submit that it is iiimecessaly ,,, to take any bather tint., for consideration. •t pi ineiple we hale tom., tot

deeply considetrd ; upon that principle we have user tool tots is..; tin shri I.UeI caw epiuiun, in dcharo :111111 lin division, Irmo the vet r tir•t day nom which the 'louse was tii,r addi vs,ell upon the subject in the speech of his Majest■ tr,an the throne: and I cannot fur an instant suppose that now, upon the last day of June, Ise, th.• I lonsi• of Commons, are prep tied to surreialei the principle upon which ne have so solemnly derided. I this.k, therriose, that as these Ceti he but title opiiiion upon the subject among these who Harmed the largr it, lju;iIv upon the last occasion on which the House decided upon this question, it will Ile quite unnecessary for me to enter inns~ IMO ally lelig,lened -,1,teilient of the reasons upon which our opinians are fouteleil—to cuter ii • into a description of the advailtsges of local and popular municipal government, or to cull :soot to expose or to confute any reasons by which the adverse view of things is SIISt awed."

l'here were, however, some words in the to of the Lords which induced him to take it less dark and ilespaiiilig view of the titlestion than Le had hitherto taken : they were contained in the followIng pas- sage—

‘• Thai Lords will, however, still entertain the hope, that the two Houses of Parliament, maintaining the good understanding, which happily subsists he tsveen them, and zealously cooperating in the discharge of then coalmen Ahoy

to the country. may. at ho distend puler!, de% ise 111Cil!qii es of reform in the administration of local affairs, as may give real contentment by effecting real improvement, and promote prosperity by prutuoting social and tel peace in the cities and towns in Ireland."

Now he thous...at that the Lords, knowing the principles which the Commons maintained, and had adhered to, would hardly have ex- pressed this hope, had they nut expected that at no distant period they might agree to a measure founded on the principles on which the present bill was founded " If that be the view that is taken, I much lament that the House of I.olds did not take the present time for acting on it. I exceedingly lament that, dis- regarding the adviIT of some of the greatest anti wisest awl most experiesicid

would give to Ireland woul I be pure and unalloyed, inatea I of postponing it to distant times, when it may be mixed with other elements. I trust that every means will be resorted to—I can hardly say in the won ds of the House of Lords, to maintain the good understanding that now prevails between the two Houses —but to brims about a better understanding than now prevails. I am disposed, then, to rely on the hope held out to me in this paragraph. I do say, in con- formity with what has been in former times the course of the House 44 Lords— in conformity with what I think ought to he course of the House of Lords—if, in a great me 'sure of this kind, the majority of the House of Commons remain firm to their principles— if that majority, so remaining firm to their principles, are supported by public opinion—I maintain the hope, I anxiously cherish the lope, that the time may come—perhaps within a few months—when the settle- ment of this iplustion may be effected, and when the prevalence of the reasons which have given rise to this disagreement may yield to the genet al opinion of the House of commons and the People—I ant Sure, if I did not entertain that hope, 1 about! despair of the Ilritish Constitution. I can conceive no constitu- tion more inconvenient than one in which the House of Commons and the People whom they represent being of one opinion, another House of l'arlia-

moat is determinately, perseveringly, and unyieldingly of the contrary opinion. r. The Lords have stated it as a matter of sincere regret with them that the more important annaohnents which they wade hail not been acceded to by this House. Thus they admit that the more important of their amendments this House has certainly not been disposed to adopt ; and that I think will be a sufficient justification to us, if, at all crews, as regards the more important principle, we should not be disposed to give way. I should probably close my observations with the hope which 1 have ventured to express, and with a de- cimation of the determination which I ant resolved to adhere to by every possible means, to infuse into the government of Ireland and the legislation for that ciaintiy the principle• of equity and justice, if it were not that complaints have been made great:y affecting toy conduct, and which has e been so interwoven with the question that I consider it my duty not altogether to pass them over."

Lord John proceeded to notice Lord Lyndhurst's attack upon him

in the House of Lords. Ile defended his remarks oil Lord Lynd- hurst's denunciation of the Irish people as aliens in blood, language, and religion, by quoting, the examples of Lord Lansdowne and Air. Canning; the latter of whom hail replied to arguments which he had heard " hisce audios " it, the House of Lords, and had been per- mitted to take that course by the Speaker, ATanners Sutton. Lord Lyndhurst had also complained of his being attacked without notice; but he punted the expression of Lord Lyndhurst :it the beginning of a two nights' debate, in the presence of Lord Lyndliiirst's friend Sir Robert Peel, who was afterwards pointedly asked by 111r. Shed to dis- avow those expressions; but Sir Robert carefully avoided all allusion to them ; though Lord Stanley had pithily said that they were words

which he would not justify or agree with. Such being the case, it was tot) much to pretend, that if he hall given notice of his intention to quote those words of Lord Lyndhurst, they would have been replied to or explained tritinishantly. Besides, he did not find that Lord Lyndhurst had altered or retracted those expressions : they still retained till their original force-

" If those. words were Cglit winds to tow, they retain their original pro- priety; if they were wrong, if they were iu

And it all OW, I May Say, that the clear awl powerful mind of the 15 son tt hs need th-• scot In 1,:omptel him to give what was not a just, but

v.h IA. if :t I l I. have been a sullieirnt reason for those amend-

mews: !ice in,:• I bight was watiting—shat I can,idered to be de. e!ive in ;II! the ao..ioret.t. I la :Alai from the other side of the !louse—was

a soil:, 'teat at a namoce for deprivim., the peo;de of Ireland of tuu- niripal fi rite emitait el in thase wolds was it

was a ;Ie.'. and Mr the eour,e adopted. tint I thought, be-

side., tl in stating what I stioposiai to have bean the gromals of the amend- ittrilt., of the Latch., I %is.. sun aohat justiti,d by their own practice. I may

have InTsi ikceit ed. I Ines is was the custom for the public journals of fmaner times to give under foiee.ii names, and dated from Rome and Athens, reports of the debates that (Weill red in the Houses of Parliament ; and the public papers of the present day may have reversed that practice : they perhaps have giro!, teal names, and tla speeches themselves may have been entirely III it %V al from fietion. I suggest the possibility of this, because I cannot conceive any such sslocA ration as I have mentioteAl to have beelli made by any 31ensber accustomed to go 0, any assembly where, as the persons who write these narra- tives tell its, there is Imtillv a measure with lespect to Ireland which is not r, jested, awl ths grounds fur the rejection of which are not some words that hive been usel by an honourable Member of this House. Not only last year ars, that the en-e, but in the resent year, when some words fell item the

honourable an.! learned Nleniher on the first night of the session. I du not wish

cc, tainly to take on myself the tesponsibility of expressions to which the honourable and lea: nett Alember affixes his own meaning ; those expressions

being to the eff.at that the Corporations would be normal schools for peace- ful ;Agitation.' I think I am tight it, saying peaceful' agitation ? (" Hear, k.or !" front 31r. 0' Cnnill.) Those words, with an alteration not ti icing in substarice—tleke words, Mil used in this house, if we are to believe those false and feigning reporters, were made elsewhere the very grotsudwork of opposition ta measures Mr the benefit of Ireland."

Lord John then asserted, that the pledge given by both Houses to do justice to Behind, kit the time when they refused to repeal the Union, ha I been violated by the Lords ; and he expressed his firm belief that they would not he supported by public opinion in the course they had adopted. This questiou was purely political ; and the cry of " No

Popery" and the charge of wishing to establish the Catholic religion could not be raised against hitnon this question, as it had been in De- vonshire last year. This was a question simply of Municipal Reform-

" I have been told to-day- (only a few minutes ago) that the people of the North of Scotland are indignant at the notion that they will not be allowed, by a bill now in Parliament, to have a Provost in their towns. The question is a similar one as regards Ireland—it is whether a Mayor and Council shall be Ahmed in the towns there. This is no question involving an alteration of the religion of the people or the subversion of the Church. It is a simple ques- tion, whether the inhabitants of the cities of Ireland shall be allowed to have a Alayor and Council of their own. The Lords say they cannot consent to the Corporations being confined to twelve cities and towns : perhaps they are tight,

and we :may hereafter extend them to a greater number. (Much cheering.) I think certainly that they iihould not be confined to twelve cities and towns:

but I made a proposal to that effect to the House, because I thought it our duty by every men's in our power, to come to some undetstanding on this great question, and even to yid I some of our opinions, that it never ought he said It

was on our side tta-. the want of forbearance was exhibited. we have ob-

tainAl the object we had in view so far., That which we thought necessary to give effect to Our own principie, we have insisted on, with as much moderation as possible ; we have confined it to as narrow a compass .as we could consist-

ently with the principle which this Ilouse was bound to maintain. I regret that the attempt to conciliate has not proved successful ; but I never can re- gret that the attempt has been made. For peace and harmony—for a cordial agreement between the two Houses, I am ready to sacrifice much—to alter many opinions—to confine views which might lie further enlarged ; but having done this' and the having doue me the honour to agree with that which I proposed to them, I should be betraying their confidence—I should be ex- hibiting a pusillanimity which I hope the House of Commons never will ex- hibit—if I asked them to take into their consideration any further eoncessionv, with a view to tin ir swerving front the great I/HM.1W 2•1 in which is involved the future peace of Leland, which ate essential to the maintenance of the charamer of this House, and on which I believe the proud situation of this country de- pends. i nue efore move, Sir, that these amendments be taken into considera- tion this day three months." ( Protracted cheering.) The SPEAKER pia the question; and, after a short delay,

Mr. Hume addressed the House. He said that the views of Lord John Russell were more moderate than his own. The time was com- ing when the question of sweeping away the House of Lords entirely must be considered. Could it be supposed that the House of Lords was au institution constituted for themselves alone ? It was not so. An institution which stood in the way of good government should be abolished, like the rotten boroughs. No good could be accomplished for the People until there had been an organic change in the House of Lords. There must be an end of the "shilly-shally" policy which had been acted on for the last two years.

Sir Roemer Peur, complained that the motion had taken him and his friends by surprise. He had expected that there would have been a motion for priming the reasons of the Lords, and a day appointed for their consideration--

At the same time, although he should record his dissent to the proposition of the nobleelord.—although he could riot consent to the postponement for three months of that consideration, which certainly had not yet been given to the questione—as the division was not expected, and as erroneous sentiments might be di awn from the divisiou, he should not think it necessary to record his dissent to the proposition by a hostile vote. At the same time, his convic- tion of the justice and policy of a further delay had been cenfitmed by the speech of the noble lord, who appeared to attach great importance to a Med:ira- te/a made I the Lords that they hoped some amicable settlement of the dif- ference between the two Houses on this question would lie come to at some future though not distant petite,. That was at least an important argument for giving an opportunity for the consido ation of the decimations of the lnds, and for not at once deciding upon a Lest) and perhaps a not very iutelligible know- ledge of them. Another reason which made delay desirable %VaS, that the noble lord had put an diatomite interpretation upon thus: declarations of the Lords. Ile world give an instance. Ile had said that one of the olijeets of the Lords' amenduants WIIA, that the Commons having confined the rorporations to twelve cities only,—and there the noble lord indulged hinted; iu a strain which provoked considerable laughter on the Ministetial side of tlx liatt.e,---t he Lords were desirous of going further with respect to Corporations thm the Common:, and therefore they rejected the l ills because they thought that p rations not

to be confined to t welve towns. Now, that was urrenrrns, and erroneow, it was a conclusive reason wily the pi ecaut;on ofprinting the ought to

have been takeo b••1.10 the House Calkli upon to decide upon :lam. app,,ared by the original docnnu nt, that " the Lords were tembie to aequie,:e itt the Kopli•ition now made by the I lon.e. of I 'ominous, dim the (.orpermion • of Ireland, as ecoostructral by the bill, should be confined to twelve cities and towns." That tra,, that the Lords r,.sisted the proposition of the Commons, which was that rorpotations should be confined to twelve plate,. But was the noble lord justified in stating that the teal and bon:if/de object of the Lords was, that they could not apt.. to the limitation of corporations to twelve rowans Ohly, and thelefere they wished to have them extruded? little, then, had the noble lord ascertained by memory of the real nature of the objeetioos of the llonse of lands, that if he had eondeseended to give tla! Reasons a second perusal, he would have Inatid, on going a little further, that the, reason Was nut that the hinds did not wish to confine corporations to these tivelve towne °My, but that the Lords had declared they objected to giving corporations to those towns, because there the population was large, and the most extensive evils were likely, in their opinion, to result from them. That is is the real reason assigned by the !louse of Lords in distinct terms, and not that they wished to extend corporations further. Sir Hobert observed, that the Ministerial Address had only been carried by it majority of 41; and this proved that the Lords acted in accordance with nu inconsiderable minority of the House of Com- mons. Ile concurred entirely in the course taken by the House of Lords, and especially admired the magnanhnity which induced them to

• make reasonable concessions, although it might be said that, in so doing, they were influenced by the denunciations which had been

IiLtraiiy-

dealt out against them. Ile confessed that he saw no good from a protected discussion of this subject. No good at all could result from further conErences with the Lords. EMI if there were to nearer

approximation in principle than did exist between the two Houses, he feared that the excitement which had been engendered during the long discussions on the bill would render any further attempt at culmination unprofitable. Sir Robert adverted to Lord John Russell's reply to

Lord Lyndhurst, and the allusions to his own conduct — Ile begged to say, that lie was not in any respect responsible for what might have occurred in another place. The noble lord complained at the same time of a speech made elsewhere by a noble friend of his. On the subject to which that complaint referred, the noke lord, if there had been any offence, must feel that the offence did nut originate in another place—that his noble friend was not the first offender. The circumstances were these : a Member of that House made remarks upon what occurred in another place—nut from any communication received from the other House—not from any Parliamentary knowledge that he could have had of the matter, but, as he stated, from the knowledge of that which he himself had heard hisce auriblls ; then that _Member animadverted in terms of censure upon the speech of his noble friend ; he being a Mentlx.r of the House of Peers, appealed, not, let it he recollected, to the privilege of Parliament, hut, finding himself thus censured by a Member of that !louse, if he should have thought proper to inflict upon that Member Such reasonable chastisement as be might consider the occasion demanded, it was a little too much to expect that he should he called on to answer fur that with which he load nothing whatever to do. The noble lord had not appealed to the privilege of Parliament ; he contented himself with tit It notice which he thought the must suitable; and for adopting such a course his noble friend required no vindication from him. lie begged, however, it might be boine in mind, that he did not shrink from defending his noble friend ; quite the con- trary: he merely maintained that his noble friend had more than sufficiently defended himself and that, whether he had or not, no obligation devolved upoa him to explain his language, support his opinions, or adopt his .sentiments. When asked did he subscribe to the words uttered by his noble friend, and identify himself with all that had fallen from him, he would say, in reply, that he should explain his own views and maintain the opinions which he might express in his own name and on Ids own behalf. No man living had a right to call on him to dissent ft ono or ascent to the opittion of any third party, be that individual whit he might. It was true that he hail referred to his noble friend on the point, who gave the very natural and proper reply. that he should explain himself. (Loud cheers, fit st on the Opposition, and then on the Ministerial side of the House.) Ilis noble ft lend had exphiined himself—( Renewed cheer- ing)—amid that was exactly as it should be ; but he wal under no sort of obliga- tion, but the reverse, to do that for his nettle friend which he had nut been solicited to do, on the one hand, and which, on the other, he shauld never expect to be done for him. 'Ito his own deelarat Med with respect to Ireland lie begged to refer—to his often. expressed and repeated opinions with respect to the state of that country and the principles upon which it ought to be governed, he %visited to refer, and by those alone he wished to he judgol. If the language which at all times he held upon the subject were not sufficient to satisfy all reasonable desire for information, then be despaired of being able to do so by reading upon a distinct stoics of replies to the questions which had been

put to I .

There was another point on which he found it necessary to say a few words- " The noble lord spoke of certain alterations taking place, and his despair of the maintenance of the British Constitution. I confess I heard with deep regret from the noble lord—trout a 31inister of the Crown toe !—that he had reason to despair of the maintenance of the Ito itish Constitution For my- self, Sir, I disdain any such despair. I do not entertain a doubt that the Bri- tish Constitution will be upheld. I do not believe that there is any desire en- tertained by the People tot England to part with the advantages of a mixed government under which they have so I. lived. You say, you must not rsfuse to do justice to Itched. No doubt, you must not. But then, you have no right to prescribe to us, to enforce upon us, tit it whieh in your opinion con- stitutes justice. Honourable gentheneu may ray that noble lords shall not wan- tonly exercise this power ; lemeurable gentlemen may declare that they shall not exercise the privileges with which they were vestml by the Constitution for their individual benefit. No delthe they are not to do so. 'fluey are respon- sible tot the power they exerei.e. are not responsible to constituent.. We are; they are respen•ilde to God—to their own eensciences—(" Ileac!" from .11r. O'Connell, and lanyliler")--and to their intelligent fellow ermittrymen. (Cheers .froni the (ipplsitihn.) Anil no doubt they fed and ad upon that irsponsibility. But what glee, the noble lord say ? That judging of the temrse which the lions.. of Lords has hitherto pursued, he does not de. spar' of an amicable arrangement of this (region. Why, how then can yon say that the House of Lords have pet tinacionsly adhered to their owns opinions, without referenve to the public good? 1 believe that the lime.. of Lords will centime., as they have done, to give satisfaction in the exercise of a public duty--a thitv that they owed to the People. I believe that, on account of the great functions with which they are iritros•eiL it is abs,liitely necessary that the power they possess should he tiriiiitaintd. 1 believe that tlwy exercise those powers, out with a view to the inere exeecie: of power, still less on account of personal privileges, but:upon en! ur.et! ;Led etili;;Iitened views of what is ne- cessary tier the public good, if they Chicle it not noffssiry to yield to the fieSt 11111/Ilk. Of popidar passion, I believe thee arc net only encouraged and satisfied in their own consciences by so doing, but f believe that they wi!I be supported by such a nits, of public opie:ott in Clis tanmaly—'1,y such a preponderating mass %).. a ;)oCe11e of the intelligence abed Public owitlini in this you etrv—as s%

• ' •

Ii duiton o mu the o iteeers ....Lie!: seine

( boa rhea rs ma the ) iv 11.• Ousts of popular passion diremed againg the I loose of Lords, brit I C:':14 h •I:eve tit tt :t mired forat of ;:e wernment is rooted in the hearts :mil :11,:etions of the people ; awl when they reflect what mighty eliair;es in legislation hav r taken pl lee in the last eight

years, they will net believe that the e Lords will set themselves up as perp:tual Imiriers agaiest all ii form of as is all..ged against them. I itch, ve that the more 'ILA -laces are directed -::;ainst them, became: they will not yield to or adopt sour opinions, the nture you will confirm that hold which they Ir we, and jlistiy have, upon the respite and the alTeetioas of the people of this country."

Mr. SPRING RICE denied that the motion of Lord John Russell could have taken the Opposition by s arprise. From the conversation out of doors, from the large attendance of Members in the House, from the advanced period of the session, as well ns frem the evident dictates

of sound policy, they have prep roal fur the course which Ministers had adopted. Why, Sir Robert Peel himself confessed that no good could result from delay. It was sufficiently notorious what the Lords had done, and evelybedy knew that the Commons would loot abandon their principle s. It would have been childish and mischievous, under the circumstances, to consent to further delay. Mr. Rice then alluded to the majority, increased from 41 to 86, by which the bill had been supported ; and especially to the fact that the English Liberal Members alone exceeded in number those of English, Scotch, and Irish, of the Opposition on this question,—a Inet which ought to satisfy the Irish people that there to as a disposition in Eng- land to do them justice. It was not the first time that good measures had been intermaited in their progress from the lionise of (7ommoos to the Crown, by the unworthy delays and jealousies of it party. The same language which was Dow used in referehre to the opposition of the Peers, was used also in reference to the bills for Catholic Emanci- pation and Reform. Power and dignity could wrest the progress of Liberal legislation.

Sir 1101IERT PEEL—" Who is to decide what is Liberal legislation?" Mr. SPRING RICE—" Perhaps we are not the tight judges of it. The weight of authority may be against is ; but it so happens, that on all great questions the right honourable baronet was .against us; and it so happens, that in the long run we succeeded, and he did not." But, said Mr. Rice, it was most impolitic to delay concessions. This measure carried next year will not have the benefits it would have if passed now.

O'Cosser.i. was sure that the House would not think it ne-

cessary for him to apologize for presenting himself to their notice on this occasion. Ilis first feelings were such as he would rather sup- press than give utterance to; and therefore he would first apply him- self to some of the observations which had been made by his prede- cessors in the debate. " I do not think that it ever fell to try lot to bear a more unstatesmanlike speed] from the right honourable baronet than that which he has just uttered. That up en an important question like this the rignt honourable baronet should stand up to advocate delay, tinder the in,re formai pretence of having the Lords' Reasons and Amendment* pointed, war in itself quite astonishing, a id sLosed the o eakrti Ss of his position and of his g Untoits. Bet the tight adio baronet inimeiiiately answeied himself out this rely point, by (let tiling the un- happy consequences which wrothd result from pi elol,:uing this di-cu--.4m. Ile answered himself admirably, and hie prudence in ov•.i.liog to i/1'1',4 for another (division upon this question was equally to be admil ed. The light honourable baronet recollected that the forme' division of 41 had Lou !v swollen into eii, ambler feared that on another division the majority would ague ri he itenblel. llut whilst 1 admire the right humour:dile baronet's priule:.co the matter, I 110 not think be has shown himself timidly prudent in standiag f,,rivaril, a+ lie hats (Me, to advise the House of Lords perseyete in the course they have t ihen up. .1 If the people of England were to tally round the !louse of Lords and the .Crown in this matter, as he says tiny woold, what chance of justice moild it ii to Ire- land, but in a repeal of the Union between the two connotes? .The right bonourable baronet adopts the !louse of Lords ; lie becomes a parecip 'tor rn all their outrages against Ireland; and when at last the N1 Vet! 1111111:4:S of peo- ple who are wronged in these acts are driven to rank theneelyes in open hos- tility against their Lordships, the right 1111110111-ilble 1/ wIrp.t !home( linsiselt thit lie may calmly sit on the whirlwind and direct the storm. I know all this may be sneered at, but we are in a temper to bear it. Seotland obtained her measure of alueicipal Reform two or three years ago; Folglatol hers last yu ; and last year Ireland might have had hers. It has been admitted on all I. Lodi that the 'Corporations of Ind oil have become Grossly col ropt ; that they hove been roverteil, even in the administration of jietice, party purposes and me blushing partiality. All this has beca admitted; even the honourable and learned Herm der for Ihiblin could not (limy it ; and yet all this is to remain fee another year at least. I appeal to the people of England, whether it is in tlyt things which no man ha, had the audacity defend should be continued in jreland for two years after similar abuses have been swept away from Etiglaud. Ile warned ,Lord John Russell, and he warned Sir Robert I've', that the bill which the Lords rejected would not content the Iri•!, nation next year. They would not Lr satisfied with the 9th of Gu (wee the Fourth next year. awl they would moreover i

tilt` nomi-

nation of Sherilfti, Thi, was what the Opposition had gained by le- fusing to pass the a Look at the position the case is brought to—and it is you who have done all this. ( Pointing to the (tiposition.1 It is you ivho hay • done :hi, injury to Ireland, deelai log that she shall not have what England aim Scotland are permitted to enjoy. It you who have adopted the man who ,aid that the People Ireland were aliens in blood, aliens in religion, and olives in country to the people of ['Aglow!. It is you who have injured Ireland, and then insulted her. And then you tall. allow avoiding :Nit:ohm ! Yon may have gut rid of the ' normal schools' of in,itation, but wait till you sec what ion you will S91111 hate a1/0111 1/11.. POI' from the hour in which I stand here, till 3 see Corporate Reim in 111 11u141111, I promise you you shall have plenty of i.

tation. Nt'itli the exception of very small faction, whim I oily call tile

Ascendancy fretioo, there is not au Irislimatt who will nut take 1.1TC IA, at the condition to which yeti have attempted to reduce then], and should demise the man who did not feel the force of the insult. That you raise 11, IA man can lie surmised. but that you should insult us also, and with imt to he eieditc.i. !the I honouraide gentleman ( Mr. o;;:i loce) eil not take the trouble of going thenigh the towns of behind: t tout boiami %yid meet in the open day—. there will he to( .1.teey the watt: or- girlie.; their system Mr the romeliii agitation of their ...al e!..tiaeter. We will .lo so, mil yeti iii hr to despise us it' we (h.! not." hope hail 1., loud ? The pledge it the I1 aise of Lords':

Why, it had been violated a thousand times-

" All disguise Iris now been throusu or by them—yell the disputes about petty di tills have 'mon thrown toed...aid ; they hive rum e to ila• pr:11.-iphe and the pi inciple they lei et. The light boxwood& baronet halloos on the llouse of lairds to persist tijio•tiog this principle, awl then I:v tells es that their laildshipen meseue dm People et Lug! end ; and, Illo:1•011,,I,f1114,■111 1I1 Ft

they have a lespomibility aiso. A tespoteibility !--,o, too had /1,-Immet .11i,

who told his people, are ali repiesented ; and a, to respoleihilite, 31aboulet be pra i• I .iin eesponsilde to (del.' This is the ty rnt's respowiluiliiy. If I were disposed to be profane, slionlil ask what resources you have to make that in av,alable Imman affaii ? If thew hoidships are quietly troigio .1 to endure the ponishieeet, of the next %%mild, for having done the nii,chiu.f they eau this, hot all r their Lord,hips' respon,ihility to ! hurrah for the Rig!, Priest anal the Pi opliet of Alecca! ('• (Hi, oh ! ' from the Opposition.) After all, pea Ts. ate right. It is alum,: impicolble to speak of the subject witlitoo :more the profane; but it is him (pointing to Sir Robert l'eel) von slimod• ht•

one, and

not me ; blame him who ti cabs! us, in the first instance, to this tine theological diSeOlIrSe 1111 the responsibility of the House of Lords." The Itemise of Lords dared not to mutilate the English f'orporation Bill, as they had mutilated the Irish ; for they vvere afraid of the English people, and they did not fear the Ii ash. Who supposes that any bill of utility to Ireland can pass the House of I.ords ? Rue is any body so insane as to suppose that this state of ran la " ILiving succeeded by dint of peaceable agitation ie olitairdog (me ino thou of Catholic Iiinalicipation from your hands--yes, port for arm' all, ?bat act was but a part of the justice we looked fur- -having Mr pit t loon the tight honourable owlet. (who gained all his state-in:mid.. '(put itioa with his party by opposing us,) and front the noble duke, who ; t about competing Leland with the sword. and in lo; 29 found it more :Igl'111:- able to put it the seablend—I tell you that the people of Ireland dol.- vita

menaces for the ore. Neither the noble duke nor emir mihotity shall ev..r

be permitted to trample upon behold with impunity. the name of the Irish l'eople, I give you this defiance. l/uu not think that I mock yylem talk so to you. I tell you that if you refuse to do jiistie, to zih:e ti, &justice to ourselves. have given up the agitation of the gee,timi u.1 the 'Repeal of the Ii and now see what an argument you hove given in sup- port of it. See the large majority in the !louse of Lords, and the mium itv iu the Ilouse of Commons, both denying justice to Ireland, and the leader ot.the Oppositi .n party absolutely identifying himself with the majwity il1 the Lords (—that leader himself having made a brief and vain attempt at gover [tomtit let year, with the No Popery flag floating over his head—when the II:sh peoide remembered all this, 'night not it be said to them, • S.A. how yell have lien betrayed ?' and they would seek to obtain for themselves that justice which Seven millions never sought yet in vain." Let him not be undersi s,.1 in saving

e

this to utter any threat. (Ironical cheers from the Opposition.) lie knew flici.e were men who, shrinking from danger themselves, thought a man hod no per Final, g, because he had moral, courage ; but they were mistaken in supposing, If while lie saw despot.: endeavouring to trample it the the liberties of his country, that lie would not lather (lie ten thousand deaths than see her insulted —hut to express his feelings upon what had occurred. lie should begin froan:to- morrow. There was not a man in Ireland who would not rise to remove the giieyanee ; awl you would have millions peaceably, meetly, but determinedly exclaiming on all occasions, " Repea U l the n of ion, do justice." For his own part, his course was determined OM Ile would make the experiment of the fullest and most complete reliance on the justice of the Be itish people; and if they were disappointed, there should not be an honest man in England who would not say that he would line been a deserter float his own country if he had carried Ili, patio:re any further. They tniglit think that this storm would blow over, Ill•vvr to II:Min—like thee tide which had ebbed from the beach butt an hour back : but behind felt the insult and the ignominy that had been east upon her ; the iron had enteted into her soul ; they had branded her with disgrace, and if het sou., did not efface it, they would indeed be the de- spieali'au creatures the House of Lotils said they net e. [It is impossible to have any just idea of the power and Eloquence of Mr. O'Connell's speech from the above repeat ; but it happens, un- fortunately, taut in all the AIorniog Papers the eat is vet y imper- fectly and carelessly given.) Mr. J. AI. Gasstee. defended the conduct of the 'louse of Lords; and, amidst loud cheers from the Opposition benches, declared that the Peers would not yield, but would adliVie cc 1/1-11/1y to their prin- ciple as Alinisters and their supporters to theirs. Mr. Rowires then addressed the Mouse ; but nothing like a cor- rect report of his speeeli is to be found in the papers. 'lite following is it Lind of outline, partly from the newspapers, partly from memory. Ile was not surprised at the conduct of the Peers. The wonder would be if they acted otherwise, considering that they (Allied responsibility to (lied alone. If you put men into situations where the only cheek upon misconduct was the fear of punishment in a future world, it must be expected that their earthly propensities would get the better of their heavenly interests. [Here there were some interruptions from the Opposition ; which Ale Roebuck noticed with a contemptuous wave of the hand, and by saying, duet what every num admitted in private should not be hypocritically de Wed when stated publicly.) The peers we re not to be blamed as individu 'Is. They lid acted consistently and oninueeously for their own inta rest:. All abuse of diem was misplaced. They only did what others would do in tie stone sit a., ti on. There had been two or three instances of me who had nut misused irresponsible power; but such stood out as rare plimminena end bright exceptions freal Ili!. m :S,; of mankind. Pram the earliest periods, the Peers of hiel consulted their own intererts at the expense of the public. They- ree-uileel nothing but their selfish interests and personal pecu- lation. The SIT .XE Lit here interrupted Air. Roebuck ; reminding him that the other I !mese must be treated with decorum. and that it was dis- yokel). to impute conniption to its members. Mr. liners' rs merely intended to state historical facts. llis remarks should not aquply to existing Peers, and his charges should refer only to the period prier to that when the present Peers were hart. The con- duet the r-, up to that period, liad. Leen such as he described; and though 1;e was olopinion t hat the cc,u; try,if polled through, might perhaps at this moment afford a majority in favour of an irresponsible [louse of Lords, yet the eleinge of opivion with regard to its utility lead burn astonishingly rapid. I I e s dIItItigto wnit patiently for the

i epee 'thin el such experiences as were afforded by the Lord's treatment

ef II isli 11111. Last year he had prophesied that the Peels would repeat their treatment of Ireland in this session ; and it woeld eat be denied that he bad been a true prophet. Ile expected than still to persevere in the some policy; which he considered as the inevitable consequence of the position they occupied. Until the prin. eiple of iriesponsibility was eradicated from the House of Peers, they !mist, as hantan beings, vont iette to eonsult their own interests in oppo- sition to those or the halite. Ile was taut anxious or alarmed except on one point : feared that the Irish would not restrain the expres- sie111 11h. their indignation, under the mitrage they had received, within the boirels preserilaal by law.. lie hoped, however, that the influence ascribed !o Afr. O'Connell, on whom the preservation of peace in Ire- Lie:! now depended, would lie found suflitiently powerful to curb them. ale was opposed to the repeal of the Union, as he thought it for the interest of both-countries to be under the same. Government ; but he was persuaded that it would require all the efforts of their great leader to prevent the Irish people from demanding Repeal. Expressions had b, (et used in the House of Lords—expressions which he had hoped have been defended, but retlacted its being tittered in the heat el 41, seemed intended to exaspt rate the Irish into demandieg Repeal. Mr. Roebuck cencludeal by again declaring his lien belief, that we should have to eneininter unnually the same im- re dine les to wise and just legislation as we have this year experienced, until the People empowered their Representatives to effect a Reform in the I louse of Lords. net a few words (ruin Mr. Dit.t.ox Bliows, Lord John Russell's motion was carded, without a division.

2. bumf TITILF. BILL.

List night, Lord Unapt:lit moved the order of the day for going into Committee on the Irish Tithe Bill. On the question that the Spieiker leave the Chair, Al!.Sitamma CuAwyoun moved a series of resolutions, which de- clared the expediency of :abolishing tithes entirely, paying the clergy out of the Consolidated hued, and buying a tax on tents in lieu of tidies. The motion was opposed by Lord Mottle:Ili, Mr. O'Cot4- NEEL, and others ; and negatived, by M to 18. The House then went into Committee; and agreed to forty-nine clauses. with slight alteration, and very little discussion. The only poilits dint require to be mentioned are the following. Mr. O'Cost- NELL declared that it was a waste of time to discuss the details of a measure which, being one of benefit for Ireland, was sure to be !e- jected by the Peers. Lord STANLEY expressed his extreme surprise, that certain persons who had applied for grants out of the Mahon Loan should heave allowed their names to appear on the list: he thought they would have cut off their right haunts sooner. lie staked his honour upon the fact, that one person returned himself as a tithe- defaulter, and obtained part of the million, because, as he said, he had not paid his tithes to himself ! This was the answer be gave to the question how he came to be on the of defaulters and on the list of H m recipients also.

principle, should be discussed in the Committee on Monday.

3. REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS AND MARRIAGES.

On Tuesday, Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the third reading of the 5. SCOTTISH UNtvenseriss BILL.

Registration of Births Bill.

Mr. GOULBURN moved an amendment, which would prevent the mince on this bill.

might be induced to have a religious ceremony performed ; the date of on the bill in Committee—

fficer. 97 to 73.

The bill was read a third time. On the question that it do now pass, Sir Ronater Pest. asked, if compensation was to be given to parish clerks whose salaries were interfered with by the bill ? Lord

Bill be read a third time. Mr. GoulawuN propos'ed to insert a clause, of live, as proposed by the bill.

of the marriage-contract. Air. Baines had taken a different course

Sir Robert Peel also said, that the conduct of Lord John Russell in.

cedented, considering the position he occupied in the I louse. kited, to anticipate any such result.

Lord Joni Itt:1:1.1. reminded the House, that the proviso svhich

had been struck out was not in the original bill, but had been introduced

to conciliate opponents. 'I' he consequence, however, %vas not such as had been anticipated : the proviso produced dissatisfaction ; and he was told it was necessary to go further, and agree to a clause—that pro- posed by Alr. Goulburn—which would destroy the efficacy of the bill— When he found, therefore, that sonic honourable gentlemen opposite were not AIISCELLANEOES SUBJECTS.

sated,—he believed that if he retained such a proviso in the bill, when, as lie said before, those for whose sake it was purposed were not conciliated by it, that he did not attain the object he had in view, and therefore he would %with-

draw it.

derogatory to the character of the Ihmse Commons, for any of its 3'10116.1.s whose letter be could produce. to become the paid advocate in Parliament for the conduct there of either pub- lic or private affitirs uf any portion of his Alajesty's subjects."

Assembly of Lower Canada, had placed himself in that situation. : it did not follow that they had been deserted by their

Mr. Roesuce quoted the judgment of an Election Committe, who had decided that Mr. Iluskisson's acceptance of the office of salaried

agent for Ceylon did not incapacitate him from sitting in the I louse. Tile CHURCH Dtsciratsa; Baas was read a second time on Tuesday, He also referred to the cases of Mr. Burke, Sir James Mackintosh, on the motion Lad COTTENHAM; aud ordered to be committed on

Mr.' Burge, Mr. Marryatt, and Mr. Labouchere, who bad all been Monday. Members of time House, and at the same time Colonial agents. The RiaosTraertos or Vomits Bras. The House of Commons, being

resolution of Sir John Hamner would exclude the Governor of the in Committee on this bill on Alunday, Sir JAmss GuAnam moved a Bank of England, East India and Bank Directors, and even the clause to prevent freeholders and leaseholders of property iu boroughs, King's Ministers, from Parliament. The only danger that could which would confer the privilege of voting for Borough Ale:niters, from arise from the practice against which the resolution was aimed, was voting in right of such property for Comity Members. Sir JOHN averted by the publicity of the fact that such and such persons received Canton:ma Mr. WARaltreN, and Mr. Gomm:, opposed toe met ; pay for certain services. There was law and precedent in favour of and it was negatived, by 1;33 to 100. The remaining clauses, with the the practice ; and he should leave it to the House to decide whether schedules crud preamble, were agreed to.

there was not common sense also. ENGLISH TITIII: BILL. Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the third read- Mr. HARVEY expressed, in strong terms, his sense of the merciless ing of this bill on Abniday. Sir ROBERT Pees said, that there was treatment he had received, when he was ft:reed !iv the resolution of the little difference between the bill mid the measure he had himself House ti, give up his business as Parliamentary agent, which %vas !mimed ; am] he was not dispu.cd, considering the public anxiety worth 3,000/. a year. Though tie had nu on! rielufly to :"..tr. ter the settlement of the question, to offer any opposition to the Roebuck, he wished all parties to be treated aid:Es:Ind thsr nut seethe,. Oer an brief debatts—ill Mr. liuvr,.11r. WAnti•ILTON, once should be made between his case and that of other;, in't%1;1■Z' they S r ilia:lair I.um is, Xlr. BA INS 5, Will Captain FECHELL had precedents on theirside which he %yawed. But he has always been hill Was read a third time. Mr. lIcarE then tnovcd to out the the victim of party. :Sidi and :kith clauses, which fixed the amount of tithe to be red for Mr. LABOUCERE mentioned, that he had declined to act agent for CJI1:111:1. lie thought that Colonial agents ought not to be in Perlis-

It was agreed that the 50th clause, which raised the Appropriation meet ; but on that point Sir James Aiackintosh held a diffent opinion. Lad Jolla 11E78st:to, spoke a few words against the resolution. It was ultimately rejected, by 178 to 67.

Lord MELBOURNE, on Tuesday, moved the Peers to go into Corn- name of a child being given to the Registrar, in order that the parents Lord ABERDEEN then stated the amendments be intended to move the birth, parentage, and all but the name, being registered by the civil Ilia first amendment Wirt the insertion of the following clause : " Provided o alwa■s, and be it further enacted, that nothing in this At contained be Sir HoSERF PEEL. supported this amendment. It was opposed by held to alter or affect the tights, privileges, control, and superintendence at Lord JonN RU SSELL and Dr. LUSIIINGTON; and rejected, by present exercised, or which may lawfully be continued to be exercised, by the Established Church of :.'catland, her General Assemblies. Synods, or Meshy- teries in any of the Universities and Colleges of Scotland." his next amend- went was, to prevent the visiters from inteaeriog in any of the details of MA- versity discipline or regulation, and to confine their inquir ies to the dist, ibution Joni: RUSSELL said, that when he had the necessary returns before him, and management of their property and fonds ; legal d being hadi to their charters, he would take care that the legal interests of the clerks were provided foundation, and the other mews by which they :requited or held their property. for. The bill then passed. The seat was, to limit the right of appeal to sentences of expulsion or disanis. Lord JOHN RUSSELL then moved that the Registration of Marriages sal; and the next, to limit the duration of the Boards to three months instead to compel parties giving notice of their intended marriage to the Ile wished the bill to be comtnitted pra.timma, that his amendments Registrar, to declare at the same time that they bad conscientious might be printed, and afterwards proposed when the bill should be re- ecruples against being married according to the forms of the Church of committed.

England. Lord Altamotiese did not sec the justice of Lord Aberdeen's re-

Alr. LAW, Sir ROBERT INGLIS, Mr. A. TREVOR, and Sir ROBERT quest. The bitter invectives of several of the Scottish clergy had re- Perla supported the motion. It was opposed by Dr. LUSIIINGTON, et.iVed their best answer from the manner in which the Commissioners Lord JOHN RUSSELL, Mt. BAINES, Atr. HARDY, Alt. Cl"FLAR FER- 111111 discharged their trust.. Ile was not anxious for the authority cussoN, arid Mr. WARBURTON. For time clause, 65; against it, DU which the bill would give to Ministers, and which it was said they Air. WantuneroN moved to strike out a proviso to the 15th clawe• might misuse— which required parties about to be married to make a declaration of Whose bill was it ? It was more the bill of the noble lords opposite than it their religious opinions. Lord JO1IN RUSSELL supported the motion ; wa. theirs: it was a bill founded upon the report of their own commission, Sir ROBERT INGLIS and Mr. EsTcouwr opposed it. The motion was svhich they had repeatedly tionted the floret nment for not having before in- carried by 108 to 67. bodiless!. For his part, he would far rather not have this power ; for he well Some conversation ensued ; in the course of which, Sir Roerwr kesw the difficulty of exercising it. Ile professed that it was his iotention to Pees charged '.1r. Baines with acting inconsistently in supporting a exeicise it impartially and honestly, and to appoint only men who were fitted, from their eharacter and authority, to cart) into etTeet the reco llllll endations bill which rendered no religious ceremony necessary fOr the completion of the Commissioners. But he did not undertake to give general satisfaction by when his bill was brought forward : and Sir Robert read an extract li mn Lis exercise of this authority ; because he knew too well the bitter political animosities, the bitter differences of religious opinion, the illiberal feeling of one Air. Baines's speech in Hansard's Reports in support of his statement. set of Men towards Zinother, and the blind, bigoted hatred of opporite opinions, which prevailed in the present day in every part of his Majesty's do lll i l dons, allowing a proviso introduced by himself to be struck out—was unpre- :Led certainly not the least in that part of the country to which the measures re- Mr. BAINes spoke a few words in explanation and defence of his The Bishop of ExErea said, that there was great excitement on the conduct. Mr. Manx and Mr. A. Teevoit condemned the conduct stiljeet in Scotland. Only one University had petitioned in favour of of Lord John Russell. 1)r. BOWRING said, that the country would be the bill. There was alarm, nay event a panic, in Scotland, when it grateful to Lord John for his conduct that night. was found that the bill had been read a second time. He wished the The Earl of IstscosN said, that the conduct of Lord John Russell measure to be postponed ; and moved that it be committed that day six was unexampled, and utterly unworthy of him. Ile moved that the Tu'uths.

Alelbouree that the bill would not ho hastily pressed forward. It

%las Lord Melbourne's duty to introduce it ; and be thought it ought to Le eautiowly proceeded with.

The Bishop of Exe'ree withdrew his amendment ; and the bill

%vent through the Committee projilenta.

the schools. The :Marquis of LANSDOWNE, in reply, said that he bad ascertained the falsehood of several of the charges against the new sys-

tent, and especially that advanced by the Bishop of Exeter respecting

the seditious words set as a wt iting-copy for the use of' the boys in a

The House divided ; and the third reading was carried, by 104 to 54. school on his own estate—his pet-school, us the Bishop had called it. The bill was then passed. The Bishop of Exisren said, that if his motion for inquiry had been acceded to, he would have produced the evidence on which he made the

4. SALARIED MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT. statement: Lord Lansdowne's contradiction rested upon an inquiry Sir JommN HANMER, on Thursday, moved the following resolution— conducted he knew not where, or by whom. The Marquis of LANs- " That it is contrary to the independence, a breach of the privileges, and nowt: said, that he stated the Etas on the authority of his ageots

Petitions in favour of a relaxation of the hours of working in factorits ; He supported his resolution in a speech of neatly an hour's duration; which gave Lord AI ta.nototxt: an opportunity of correcting a misttn- parents.

and Goluirel Thompson, supported the motion. It was opposed by Mr. kl000as, Sir ROBERT PEEL, Lord JOHN RUSSELL, and Mr. CURTEIS; and rejected, by 153 to 39. The bill was then passed : it was taken up to the 'Innis, read a first time, and next Thursday was appointed for the second reading.

SALE or SPIRITUOUS LIQUORS. The House, on Wednesday, refused, by a vote of 52 to 15, to go into Committee on Mr. GILLON'S bill to regulate the sale of spirits. Some conversation took place respecting the comparative intemperance of the bigherand lower classes. Mr. POT- TER said, that the people were driven to the gin-shop by interference with their innocent amusements. Colonel TioneesoN thought, from what he had witnessed, that there were inure instances of degrading, ilthy, and indecent intoxication, among the richer classes than among the operatives. Sir R. Bamsoa said, that the persons with whom lie associated were not in the habit of getting beastly drunk !

Tue. CHARITABLE TRUSTEES Bit.r. went through the Committee last night ; and the report is to be received on Thursday, when the discussion on the principle of the bill is to take place.

RAILWAYS. On Tuesday the report on the London and Blnrkwall Commercial Railway Bill was received. The report of the Brighton Railway Committee, approving of Stephenson's line in opposition to Rennie's, was received, after a debate of some length, by a vote of 101 to 61.

In the House of Peers, the Duke of RICHMOND presented a special report from the Committee on Railways, recommending the insertion of a clause in every railway bill, to prevent accidents by lire in densely- peopled districts from the flues of the engines. Earl FITZWILLIAM approved of the clause ; and pressed upon Ministers the necessity of some general plan for railway lines, in order to make them dovetail into one another as much as possible, instead of clashing and crossing. The clause recommended by the Committee, to prevent accidents by fire, was then, on the motion of Lord KENYON, inserted in the London Grand Junction Railway Bill.