Debates nub 1Proccebings in 1pm - flaunt.

REMOVAL 05' HILL COOLIES '1'0 THE MAURITIUS AND THE WEST INDIES.

In the House of Commons, on Monday, Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose to move the third reading of the Colonial Passengers Bill. The House had been crowded with Members eager to ascertain whether there were any prospect of a party contest and division on Lord Stanley's Irish Registration Bill ; but an arrangement having been made which released Members from attendance, the majority left the House, causing so much noise and confusion, that the Ministerial Leader was inaudible for some time. Mr. IlluscoE, who sat within a few yards of Lord John Russell, complained that he could not hear a word. Still the noise con- tinued, and nothing like an intelligible report of Lord John's speech could he made. He dwelt upon the decrease in the amount of sugar produced in the British Colonies ; on the rise in the price of sugar, the stimulus given to the foreign slave-trade, and the desirableness of pro- moting time cultivation of sugar by free labour. He did not anticipate any great results from the Niger expedition for a considerable period—

The object of the expedition to the Niger was to induce the Africans them- selves to join this country in attempts to put down the slave-trade. But it should be recollected, that we had found it exceedingly difficult to prevail upon the most enlightened nations of Europe to unite with us in that object, and therefore we must not be surprised if we did not succeed to the utmost of our -wishes with the barbarous chiefs of Africa. Yet he was not without hope that some good would result from that expedition.

Whim regard to one of time provisions of the bill, lie admitted he had great doubt-- It was proposed either that the labourer should consent to pay the amount of his passage-money, or that lie should cuter into an indenture with the person for whom be was to labour, to serve him for three years. Ile owned that he was disposed to think that such a person ought to be allowed a free passage, and that he should not he burdened with three years' service. Ile also enter- tained doubts as to the policy of permitting the experiment of the importation of Indian natives to be tried elsewhere than in the Mauritius at present.

Lord HowicK expressed general concurrence with Lord John Rus- sell, but could not agree that indentured labour was free labour.

Some conversation ensued between Sir ROBERT PEEL, Lord JouN Russm„ and Lord HOWICK, respecting the production of the Jamaica Immigration Act ; which Lord Howick asked for, and Lord John Rus- sell was willing to produce, but which Sir Robert Peel said ought not to be produced—it would be a bad precedent to bring into the House of Commons Colonial bills which had not received the Royal assent.

The Colonial Passengers Bill was read a third time. On the question that it do pass— Dr. LUSHINGTON proposed to strike out all the clauses which sanc- tioned the transfer of labourers front India to the Mauritius or any other place—

He should prefer taking a supply from the United States, or from slaves captured by British authorities. By treaty we were entitled to take slaves from Cuba and Brazil, and employ them as free labourers. In Cuba alone there were 8,600 slaves. Ile objected altogether to the export of labourers from British India. It' they were sent to the West Indies snider good and wise regulations, some, he thought, might be so transferred with safety ; but he thought at the same time, that the experiment would be most unfavourably tried if attempted at present, and in the existing condition of the law. The papers on the table of the House showed that not one-half of the Hill Coolies were employed as agricultural labourers, or were fit for agriculture. In his opinion, unless these labourers were transferred with perfect security to their happiness and comfort, there would be more loss and injury than could be compensated for by any advantage likely to accrue from the proposed transfer.

If this scheme failed, it would render the immigration of labourers

into the West Indies ten times more difficult— • There was less reason for the importation of the Indian labourers into the Mauritius than into the West Indies; for while in Guiana and Trinidad the avant of labour had been felt most severely, time crop which had been got in last year in time Mauritius had exceeded the previous crops. Indeed, but for the difficulty of transport, he would rather see the Hindoo labourers carried to Guiana than to the Mauritius ; for not only were we constantly in cominunica- tion with time fbrmer colony, but time mortality there was less than in most hot climates.

Mr. ELLIOT maintained that the Coolies would not be deprived of efficient protection in the Mauritius ; and that it would be rendering the greatest service to convey them to the Mauritius, in many respects a suitable and agreeable place of residence to them, and where they would earn good wages, from a country where they perished by hun- dreds from famine on the road-side- When he was in Madras in 1806 duriuw the famine, lie had seen hundreds, nay thousands, of Men dying on the road-side on their way from the interior to the coast. The country was also subject to dreadful iuundations; and after

a hurricane that took place about eight years ago, a friend of his in Bengal, who had to proceed on duty for a distance of two days' march was obliged to turn back by the stench of time carcases on the road-side. And yet it was pro-

posed to prevent these people from emigrating to a country where they could CUR four rupees in the place of two; and they were to be told to stay and die in their own country for fear they should be ill-treated iu the Mauritius:

To prevent these people from finding a free market for their labour would be • tyranny. He was surprised that the East India Company's Directors should have petitioned against these clauses.

Mr. HOGG said, the petition came from the whole East India Com- pany, not from the Court of Directors; and the petition was not directly against the emigration of Hill Coolies— It perhaps might be possible to devise means of restriction on that emkrati to which the East India Company would not object. Show them the regula-

tions ai tions by which time horrible abuses that had prevailed might he put down, and

they would drop their opposition. In his opinion, if emigration of native ln- diens was to be permitted, it ought to he made the subject of a separate bill. He besought the noble Lord at the head of the Colonies to grant some delay'

' and not proceed with this important measure in the total absence of informa-

tion, especially as probably within a few days that want might be supplied. Mr. GRANTLEY BERKELEY said, something ought to be done for the relief of the West India proprietors, whose interest had been too long neglected.

Mr. InvisG said, nothing could save the West Indies except exten- sive immigration.

Lord Howlett considered that a strange policy which would establish a limited system of emigration, instead of removing the political and other causes which obstructed the prosperity of India— He had never heard that the soil of India was cursed with sterility, yet it was well known that immense tracts of laud were now lying barren and un- cultivated. The question was, whether we should allow a trade in emigrants to be carried on as a matter of private speculation, for the profit of indelrvntimiimmielealnlest:. (" no I") If the Government were themselves to superintend the impor- tation of the natives into the Mauritius, what was the object of introducing clauses to regulate time importation, not in ships taken up by theGos, but in ships belonging to private merchants ? It was impossible to put any other construction on those clauses than that they distinctly authorized vival of the trade—for a trade it was, and one of the most atrocious character. He strongly objected to the plan of binding the emigrants toBwutorlike for certain masters in payment for their passage— In Demerara the emigrants were at liberty, 011 their arrival, to choose and make terms with their employers ; and to this plan he did not see any insur- mountable objection. But see the difference between the two plans. objected to any plan by which contracts were to be made with emigrants for work at low wages. This was a plait which MILS not to be tried fin. the first time : it was notorious that a similar measure had many years ago been tried in the Australian Colonies, by carrying out individuals under indentures bind- ing them to work for a definite time for the persons carrying them out. This experiment turned out an entire failure, for when the emigrants arrived there was no adequate stimulus to labour, as in this country : the only stimulus was the dread of punishment ; and the consequence of placing the sinister and the labourer in such a relation to each other was, that the agreements were can- celled, as productive of nothing but evil to both parties. \1 ho could see en the face of the papers that in the Mauritius there was any other stimulus to labour than coercion?

Mr. LAtionenuns: remarked, that Lord Howiek's objections applied to another scheme than Lord John Russell's. It was not intended to revive the deportation of Coolies by individuals, or to make labour compulsory. Time clauses were not essential to the bill, but were added to it on Sir James Graham's suggestion ; for Sir James thought it hard to prevent these people from going to the Mauritius.

Sir JAmEs GRAHAM said, his prepossessions were strongly with the Government, and in favour of a free circulation of labour throughout the British dominions; but the more lie reflected on the subject, the less disposed he was to agree to these clauses without further informa- tion. He saw the difficulty of obtaining labourers fairly in India; where, as Mr. Hogg had observed, it was doubtful whether the natives understood the meaning of a contract. All his difficulty lay in India ; for as to the voyage, if the Coolies could be safely taken to the Mauri- tius, he did not despair of their accomplishing the longer passage to the West Indies.

Mr. O'CONNELL advocated postponement. On all sides the impera- tive necessity of increasing the supply of free labour in the Colonies was admitted ; but it must be really free, not as iu Jamaica, where acts of the local Legislature, sanctioned by Sir Charles Metcalfe, prevented labour from being free.

Mr. VERNON SMITH was surprised that Lord Howick and Sir James

Graham should oppose the same propositions which had formerly re- ceived their full support. Mr. O'Connell's attack on Sir Charles Met- calfe had nothing to do with the question before the House ; and no- thing had been said from any quarter to induce him to abandon the general principle that every British subject had a right to seek out the best market for his labour. It wits only asked to render it possible for emigration to take place from India to the Mauritius ; and lie implored the House to reflect upon the mischief of delay, and the ruin which could only be averted by a supply of free labour to the Mauritius.

Sir ALEXANDER GRANT defended Sir Charles Metcalfe's administra- tion in Jamaica.

The House divided—

For Dr. Lushingtou's amendment 15S For retaining the clauses 109 Majority 49 The bill then passed.

It was taken to the Lords, and read a first time, on Tuesday. On Thursday, Lord DUNCANNON moved the second reading. Lord BROUGHAM expressed his satisfaction that the clauses relating to the Hill Coolies had been struck out. Lord A snuturros urged the neces- sity of supplying the Colonies with free labour. Lord ELLENBOROUGH remarked, that by abolishing the discriminating duties between East and West India produce, all danger of a suflicieut supply of sugar would be avoided.

Bill read a second time.

JAMAICA.

In the House of Lords, on Monday, in reply to a question from the Earl of RIPON, Lord MELBOURNE said he had no intention of lay- ing on the table any papers illustrative of the relations between the Governor of Jamaica and the Legislature of that colony. Lord RIPON said, in that case he might take an opportunity of moving for them.

EMIGRATION TO NEW SOUTH WALES.

The Bishop of EXETER presented a petition from Cornwall relative to the state of the Established Church in the Colonies ; and took the opportunity of calling attention to the misappropriation of the New South Wales Emigration-fund. He contended, in opposition to an opinion formerly expressed by the Marquis of Lansdowne, that the land revenue ought to be applied altogether to the purposes of emigra- tion. In 1831, Lord Ripon, then Secretary for the Colonies, had directed that the produce of land-sales should be regarded as capital, and not as Colonial revenue. In 1837, Sir George Grey laid upon the table of the House of Commons a Report explaining the principle. Subsequently, however, the rule had been departed from ; and the result was a defalcation in the Land-fund to the extent of 400,000/. Lord Glen- elg had stated that the Land-fund could not be better applied than by sanctioning a large application of it to free emigration. In 183», when a C,onnuittee of the House of Commons recommended that Lord Ripon's suggestion should be carried into effect, Sir George Grey, Under Secretary of the Colonies, declared that an Act of Parliament would afford no better security than the arrangemeut made by the colonists themselves. It was said in defence of the seizure of the Land-fund, that the colonists refused to defray the expenses of their government : but he thought that the expenses of police and gaols ought to be borne by the British Government. lle found that the taxation in New South Wales was already I/. 3s. per head, whilst in England it was only 14s. op. a head for every charge exclusive of the interest of the debt. Besides, the colony had saved this country a vast deal of money. Since its first establishment as a penal colony, 110,000 convicts had been sent to New South 'Wales. If kept in Penitentiaries in England, they would have cost 100/. each, or 11,000,000/. ; which was the amount Saved to this country. But by its breach of faith with emigrants the Government had committed an injury on persons in this country— They were to recollect that there bad been not merely a promise, that ought itself to be sudiciently binding upon any men, but there were also pledged the faith and honour of the Government, to induce parties to emigrate, and to vest their capital in land on an express condition : they were told, they were assured, that it' they spent their money in buying land, every sixpence that they so expended should be devoted to the bringing them free workmen to labour for them. In consequence of that pledge hying given, large stuns of money had been expended since 1831. Ile understood that not less than 800,000/. had been so expended, the capital of this country. Not only was the money expended, but the persons expended themselves in the endeavour to see virtuous colonists where before they had been vicious; the Government having then extorted large funds on a pledge they were not prepared to fulfil. They were so fig from doing so, that lie understood there was not a single slop sent out this year on the part of the Govermnent. Ile had not, however, vet stated the full extent of the injustice done. But while the Government was putting an end to one system, they were not carrying into effect another. The consequence was, that individuals of the greati.st respectability, some of them relatives of their Lordships, were linable to procure persons to attend their flocks, and to perform menial offices about their houses ; and gentlemen were obliged to do things, which, if th ,y did here, they would feel themselves de- graded. They were left in this 1-itoation because 400,000/. were abstracted from that fund . which ought properly to be applied to the bringing out of a virtuous population, and which would have carried out 25,000 additional indivi- duals, amounting to about one-third of the free population that was now in the colony.

He dwelt upon the value of New South Wales as a consumer of British mauutitctures-

He had been always in the habit of regarding New South Wales as a flou- rishing colony, but he was astonished, upon examination, to find the extent to which the manulimetures of this country were introduced in that colony. By a return of the declared value of the British and Irish goods imported in one year into that colony, he found that to New South Wales alone it was 1,173,440!. ; that was double the amount of what was exported to Sweden, Norway, Denmark, And Prussia. There was no country in the world, con- sidering its population, that maintained the manuthetures and industry of this country, by being a market Ibr English produce, equal to New South Wales. It was about culled to China, and half what was sent to Russia. Let them compare it with what would be soon the United Province of Canada: Canada only took in manufactures 1,900,000/., while this colony took nearly to the value of of 1,200,000/. Canada, considering its population of 1,500,000, took what amounted to 1/. per head; while New South Wales, its whole population, including convicts, being 110,000, actually took manufactures at the rate of 10/. per head; that was ten times inure in amount than British North America, It was their interest that this traffic should be encouraed—it was their interest that justice should he done. It was a matter even out' common policy that the demands, the Ihir claims of such a colony, should be attended to. If justice were not done, feelings of indignation might arise, and the consequence might be, that they would shake off the yoke of this country.

The Bishop concluded by moving for returns of the revenue arising from the sale of Crown lands in New South Wales, and of the appro- priation thereof.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE agreed that it was the peculiar duty of a British Government to watch over, extend, and protect emigration to British Colonies. And he admitted that the peculiar circumstances of New South Wales gave that colony an additional claim to assistance from the Mother-country ; but lie denied that at any time a pledge had been given that the entire revenue derived from the sale of Crown lands in New South Wales should through all time be applied to the purposes of emigration from this country— He must call their Lordships' attention to the particular expressions which were supposed to ha the foundations of that pledge, and to the particular cir- cumstances connected with the shut,: of the revenue under which those expres- sions were used. Before the year 1831, no emigration of free labour to the colony was assisted. In the year 1827 the custom of the colony was to trans- mit all its revenue to the English treasury in the lump, and the English treasury provided for the establishment of the colony. In that year, as the colony gradually advanced in importance, is more systematic plan of govern- ment was observed, and the salaries and establishments of the colony were paid in New Holland. In the year 1831, the year in which the supposed pledge was stated to have been given the Government of that day, and in particular the Earl of Ripon who filled the Colonial department, had its attention directed to the importance of encouraging emigration, and also of the importance of adopting a different system with regard to the allocation of land in the colony, which up to that time had been freely grouted. The Government thought— and the wisdom of the opinion had been confirmed by subsequent experience— that it would be notch more beneficially managed by a regulated and graduated sale of land constantly taking place in the colony, thereby increasing its re- sources and providing, in the most effectual manner for the use and cultivation of the land. Under those circumstances, his noble friend, having had his at- tention particularly called to an estimate which represented the amount likely to arise from the sale of land to be about 10,000/. a year, was induced, in order to avert the alarming consequences which were threatened in the colony by the deficiency of females, to give particular encouragement to the emigration of' females to that settlemeitt. Lord Ripon with this view suggested, that so much of the territorial revenue of the Australian colony as arose trout the sale of lands should be applied to the assistance of frmale emigrants. But be did not con- ceive that Lord Ripon could have intended, in stating that opinion, to bind himself and every Government succeeding him, that whatever might be the circumstances or increased amount of the land revenue, it should in all cases and for all times be so supplied. lie believed that it was not intended by Lord. Ripon, and it eertaitfly wa> not in the contemplation of the Government, be-

n

cause his noble friend contd not have done It without the authority- of the Treasury. In reply to a communication on the subject from the Colonial Office, the Secretary of the Treasury was directed to nequaint Lord Howick, that the Lords of the Treasury " approved of his Lordship's proposal to apply the rotting, of the sale of lands in the colony for the present to the Immigration of females to the colony." The words " at present" showed that the Lords of the Treasury wished to avoid committing themselves for any long time with regard to a colony of which the cir- cumstances were changing from year to year. And the circumstances soon changed very materially— The system of sale answered beyond the expectations of those who en- couragel it, and who calculated that the sale of land would yield a revenue of 10,0141/. a year. The first year the amount Ives 12,000/., and in the last year Of which there was an account it had risen to 120000/. or 130,001i/. No deci- sion of the Goveronwnt, founded on a revenue ud. 10,001W a year, could have been intumuleut a 1.-.....putual pledge that, no matter how great might be the in- crease of that revenue, it was still to be applied exeluskely to emigration. It might have suited the purposes of sonic persons the colony to assume that such was the intention of Government. Lord lenu lg, in entering on the sub- ject, had only sanctioned the appropriation of • "A) Loge a portion of the laud- revenue as might be required for emigration." 'With regard to the expenses of Government, he held that colonies possessing internal resources—great extent of territory and a valuable commerce and agriculture—ought to defray the cost of internal admi- nistration, and be indebted to the Mother-country for naval and mili- tary protection alone. Now, although a great expense had been en- tailed upon N..tw South Wales by the system of transportation, that sys- tem, though liable to great objection on moral ;;rounds, had contributed greatly to the material prosperity of the colony. The revenue had in- creased by 40,noo1. more than the increase in the cost of gaols and police. Nod emigration had not been discontinued— In the beginning, when flue emigration of free labour was encouraged by Lord Ripon, the number of emigrants was SOO; and under the system which the right reverend prelate &serif ied as depriviug the colony of New South 1% ales of the system of free importation of labour, the number had increased so much, that within the bot three or four years the steerage Iva, 4,300 annually, indepen.lentl■ uff tluff:e introduced by bounty. ha the course of the last two years, the slues exp.aeleil seutuling cline-rams to New S91011 Wales was even 30,0sitit orltyei' if more than the whole of the land revenue during the same

period. expenditure to promote emigration in the years 15:18 and 1839

was 220,001it !es the whsle mashie,' of the latol revenue in the two years was only ....fflul,th !l, Me- the enuigyation from this country, facilities were adurded to the I., .ol +vcrimlent of New South Wales to bring persons in by bounty. 'Iles, le M., the run taut stream of emigration of free labour, there was flue additional st ream of emigration provided for by bounty by New South Waies At the present moment, authority was granted to the Govern- nte et of New South Wales to go to any extent to which they could go, after to hitt.real government, for the salaries of public. officers, and the expenses of police and gaols, in the way of zipplthig the land revenue by mean'sof bounty to the importation of labour. The Bishop of Ex..ter had rererred

what he appeared to consider a stoppage in flue emigration ; but in fact there

was no abandonment of that -tern of sentlin!, oat lice labour, which he trusted would la the eolistant policy of the I fovernment. The Government of New South Wales had availed itself of the power to apply the laud revenue in the way of bounties to It much greater extent than had been anticipated, and it did not appear safe to send out any more free eioi,'rants until it was known to what extent this emigration under the hountieslluttl taken place. It was a system which bad grown up under the other, and might perhaps ultimately be found preferable. Meanwhile, the emigration had increased in quantity and improved in quality—a matter by tm means indifferent to the colony. It had been the custom to send out too many small eldhlren : the proportion of children under sever years of age sent out in former years was 34 per cent. ; but last year it had been reduced I I?, per cent. This showed a considerable improvement in the quality of the population sent out. Formerly, too, the mortality in the ihips hill been considerable ; but from the care bestowed in providiog sus, and inspecting the condition of the passengers, the mortality had been reduced from five per cent. to two per cent. ile subscribed to all But the Bishop had said of the growing importance of the colony to this country. Ile believed it deserving of the constant and favourable attention of this country ; Lot he did not believe it ineonsi-lent with the welfare of the colony, or inconsistent with its relations with this country, to require that the colony should maintain its own establishments. Ile should be glad to consent to the production of every paper connected with the subject up to the last moment.

The Earl of Rims confirmed Lord Lansdowne's statement that he had never intended to devote the entire land revenue of New South Wales to emigration— With the inliffmation which he then had of the 0.01,111)14u volume of the reve- nue, he had not the slightest expectation that in two or three years it could amount to such a sum as 120,000/. lle certainly should not have thought of making a pledge with regard to such an amount. In sending out labourers, he lout always considered twit things—not only the advantage to the Mother- country of getting rid of the surplus population, loft also the possibility of the colony ;disturbing profitably find immediately the labour so sent out. Ile should therefore have felt it a nuatter of great doubt whether so large a sum as 120,000!. a year could be profitably employed in sending amt free labourers.

As to the pledge, uo Minister could give a pledge that would: bind his successors.

Motion for papers agreed to.

CANADA CLERGY RESERVES.

Lord Joni Rrs,4ELL, on Thursday, postponed the Committee on this bill to ALoolay next ; when he is to state the nature of an important alteration which had been made, and fix a day for the " substantial dis- cussion."

DUTIES ON SUGAR.

'Me House of Commons being in Committee on the Sugar-duties Bill, Mr. EWART moved, as an amendment to the first clause, which con- twinoues_dthe present duties to the 5th of July 1841, to add the following

rd " Except only the duty now payable on Foreign sugar, upon which a duty shall be charged of one pound fburteen shillings for every one hundredweight thereof."

He said he had received applications from several quarters to renew the attempt lie had been in the habit of making for many years to re- duce the duty on foreign sugar. The high price of sugar might be disregarded by the rich, but it pressed severely upon the poor consumer, who was compelled to pay double the sum that was paid on the Conti- nent for this necessary of life. For fourpence halfpenny a pound the foreign workman procured refined sugar, whilst in England the price of the lowest description of unrefined was se venpenee halfpenny. The con- sequence was, that in the households of the poor treacle was now common- ly substituted for sugar. in seine of the small shops in the Tower Ham- lets the sale of sugar to the poorer classes had ceased. The amount of sugar imported bad seriously declined. In 1S32, the import was 220,000 tons ; but in 1889, after an inter-set of seven years, with all the increase of population, the import was only 103,000 tons; and there was a pros- pect of a still further decline during the current year. In 1839, the import of West India sugar was 40,000 tons less than in 1830. He believed he was justified in saying tint the import into London alone during the period that had elapsed of the present year was 12,000 tons less than in the correspondine period of 1 :see. The stock in hand vas only 3.870 tons—n few weeks' supply. The enormous difference in the price of British Colonial and Other sugars in bond deserved attention. The price that day of Colonial sneer was 49s. per hundredweight, and of Manilla free-grown sugar only 22s.; a difference against the British consumer of 123 per cent. It would be proved by reference to duties and prices at different periods, that high ditties on sugar had always caused a great diminlitiou of consumption, and that a reduction of duty had been advantageous to the revenue, on account of the increased Con- sumption ; and Mr. lit: art substantiated the statement by quoting official returns. Ile knew that his motion would be opposed On the ground that it would admit the sue;ir of Cuba and the Brezils; but he had full confidence that free labour could successfully encounter slave-labour in the markets of the world. From China, Siam, Java, and Manilla, they might expect supplies increasing in quantity and improving in quality. Even in Cuba the opinion was gaining ground that free labour was cheaper than slave-labour ; and a society established there for the mitigation of slaeery, laid it down as a maxim, that the labour of one free man was equal to that of two slaves. And the maxim was as old as Homer whom, however, lie was not about to quote in the original Greek—he would leave that to Mr. Hawes but the sentiment was, " The day that made a man a slave took away half his worth." He did not believe that the slave-trade could be put down by gun-boats on the A friean coast, nor slavery by a war of duties. With regard to the West Indies, their interests would be best. advanced by supplying them with labour by immigration ; and it would then be seen thut that trade -would flourish under a system of competition, which declined under a system of monopoly. The duty on Foreign sugar was now 03s. a hundredweight, and his amendment would reduce it to 34s.

Mr. THORNELY seconded the motion. I nle,•-s some measure of relief, such as 111r. Ewart proposed, were passed, he should regard the present session, during which taxation had been largely increased, as the most discouraging of any since he lased sat in the House of Commons. .

Isenoucti saw was fully sensible of the importance of the subject, and there was no need of ales Ewares apology for his motion. Ile could not look at the present state of the sugar-trade without apprehen- sion and concern. It was unquestionable, that whilst the demand in England had continually increased, the supply from the West Indies, which had formerly furnished a surphis fir foreign markets, had fallen below what the people of this country required. 'I'he distress of the sugar-trade was very great, and the injmy inflicted on the consumer very considerable--the price being higher than it had been since 1814. Under these circumstances, if the qued;on were am ordinary one of commerce or finance, he should not hesitate to say that a case had been made out for such a redo,: Lion of duty on foreign sugar as would admit of its importation the consumption in this country ; but the House well knew that other important considerations were mixed up with this question. It was indeed said that free-labour sugar would be imported; but free-labour foreign sugar could not be admitted, and slave-labour Ihri:ien sugar excluded, without violating treaties with the Brazils, I7eited States, and other sugar-producing countries. Ultimately free-labour sugar might drive the produce of slaves out of the market ; bat not in the course of a single year, fur which period alone they were leisbuing ; and Mr. Ewan might be assured that the Brazils would be the chief exporting country of sugar to England. Ile hap great hopes that the deficiency in the produce of the West Indies mound be only temporary.; and he found that the supply from the Mauritius mid the East Indies was increasing. One cause of the thilure of the supply from the West Indies was drought, an evil of a temporary nature. But be that as it might, he was firmly persuaded, that the people of England would not think that a fair trial had been given to Emancipation if the floodgates of foreign supply were opened and the country inundated with sl.tve-girea sugar.

Mr. Meaux blamed the Government fir not tithing efficient measures for supply ing the West ludic.: true 1.iLdur. lie supported the mo- tion, in justice to the people of Eeeltintl. who had privations enough

without being (kiwi red of what Iiud now bell a necessary of Mr. 11mvzs enatendcil that it was quite visionary to expect that the West Indies could con; inns to supply the increasing population of this country with sugar ; and whilst the experiment was trying the people of England were to pay flan- millions per annum more for their sugar ! Ito had presented a petition signed by five thousand persons for the ad- mission of threign ; and what was the reply:' Nothing. The Landed interest, the Shipping ham est, and the Colonial interest com- bined against the people, whose welffire was disregarded.

Dr. LUSUINOTON denied that the consumers were favourable to the introduction of slave. grown sugar. They would much rather subunit to pay a higher price for that article ; and he was convinced that the eacritice would only be temporary, es the deficiency front the West In- dies was the result of circumstances that could not long exist or soon recur. That deficiency was in a great measure to be attributed to the drought. Should foreign sugar be admitted, till hopes of the success of

the great experiment of emancipetion would be at once annihilated-

.

that hour when foreign sugar should come into competition with suns grown by free labour—in that hour would the fate of Africa be sealed, 'Phut hour would perpetuate slavery in Cube, in the Brazils, in Martinique, in Gee_ daloupe, and in every other country where slavery prevailed. It would not only perpetuate slavery, but it would add to that trade, which was at present

rod on with unabated activity, and aggravate the great crime against humanity to an extent and magnitude lie dared not attempt to describe.

Mr. CIIAPAIAN did not believe that any proposition which involved breach of treaties and was calculated to perpetuate slavery could be ad- vantageous to the shipping interest ; and he should oppose Mr. Ewart's amendment.

Mr. O'Coissaser, had never given a vote with a fuller conviction of its propriety than that he was about to give against the amendment. Mr. Ewart did not go far enough—he ought to bring in a bill to repeal the Emancipation Act. 'lime question now presented itself like the ebildren's fable—" get a larger loaf and a father's curse." Would they have cheap sugar and shivery together? If not,they would take the chance of dearer sugar and emancipation. What could lie more absurd and in- consistent than to send ships of war to put down the slave-trade, and bribe the Brazilians by buying their slave-grown sugar ?— They. were not to be met with lectures on political economy. The doctrines of the political economists might be perfectly true in themselves, but they were inapplicable to the subject. The great measure of Negro Emancipation set all the doctrines of political economy at defiance. lie believed that they were right, and that they had got into a higher and better region—that of humanity mid benevolence; and if they came upon him now with the stale lessons of po- litical economy, he would tell them that they were not applicable to the sub- ject ; and to make them so they meet undo all they had done, mid must come back to the question of pounds, shillings, and pence; and must balance on the one side the sufferings and the blood of the Negro with the profit and loss that arose from the speculation on the other.

Mr. VILLIERS had no more hesitation than Mr. O'Connell in voting on this question ; which was one of those on which there ought to be no doubt in the mind of an honest representative of a British consti- tuency. it was a question between the community at large and a portion of it, and lie should vote as he always voted—for the corn- muuity—

Truly the alliance between the planters and the philanthropists is complete on this occasion, and the delight of the former gentlemen cannot be concealed at the accession of those learned gentlemen. But how does this satisfy the people of this country, 1010 seek to be relieved from a monopoly ? Is there never to be any humanity exhibited in the cause of the neopte of England? Are they the only people to he excluded from the henevothit purposes at these gentlemen? is it only in Jamaica that the least sympathy is to be shown for suffering and misery.? Is there never to he one care given for the wants of English people? Arc they to he taxed for every purpose, and burdened by every monopoly, without a thought to be given to all they endure ?

The reason for excluding foreign sugar was that slaves produced it. Very well ; but let Members be consistent—

There was nobody more eager to abolish slavery than himself; but done let the people of England be told that their sufferings were to be aggravated be- cause we wanted to discourage slavery in foreign countries as far as their com- forts were concerned. but encourage it its long as it might satisfy other wants

of the community. the honourable Member for Dublin any a word about other products of slave-labour? Did he either originate or say he would sup- port any general plan for the discouragement of slavery for other purposes? iNuli.:111e1r.d he refuse to admit raw cotton ? Not a syllable had. been said on that

Mr. AVideeest Cieenteroxis perfectly understood the course taken by Mr. 1Gune; who hail never pretended to be an Abolitionist—who had indeed proposed in 183:; to substitute a Committee to inquire into the probability of there being a sufficient supply of free labour, for the Emancipation Bill. Mr. O'Connell, too, had always raised his voice against slavery ; and his course was consistent : but he could not recon- cile the conduct of Mr. Ewart, Mr. Hawes, and Mr. Villiers, with com- mon sense. Mr. Villiers did not indeed attempt to deck his speech. with pretensions bearing mockery on the very face of them ; but Mr. Ewart and Mr. Hawes professed to lie ardent foes of slavery. Now he would stake the issue upon this question—will the motion tend or not tend to encourage slavery ?—

There had been a studious attempt to misrepresent the character of this question. Mr. !limes had said that this was a question affecting the West India, the Shipping interest, and the Landed interest. Ile denied that it was a West India tine tier. In the first place, it was a question of the Negro quite as much as of the planters. In the second place, it was a question ot the Last Indies quite as much as of the West Indies. And in the third place, it was a question of free-labour against slave-labour more than any other. He contended, that without the protection of which Mr. Ewalt would deprive free labour, it could not compete with slave-labour. Mr. Buxton had shown that sugar, the produce of slavery, had increased sixfold since the commencement of the present century, which was far beyond the increase in the produce of Siam and Manilla. All the ob- jections against taxing the community for a class, were as valid against the Abolition Act as against the protecting duty. The evil was the high price of sugar ; but the way to remedy it was not by encouraging slavery, but by increasing the supply of labour to the Colonies. In British Guiana that labour would receive liberal remuneration. By in:he:try there the labourer might soon become a proprietor. Many labourers had become proprietors, and hence in part the deficiency of hired labour ; which actually arose from their good conduct and indus- try, not their laziness. A stream of emigration should lie turned into the Colonies, and there would soon be an ample supply of sugar. A few words of explanation passed. between Mr. Hewes and Mr. Geensroxe; and Mr. Ewa at replied. lie intimated his readiness to withdraw his motion ; but Mr. Rusty: wished to divide, and a division took place—

For the amemlinent 27 Against it 122 Majority 35

The IIouse resumed ; and the resolution was ordered to be reported on Friday.

IRISH REGISTRATION.

The House of Commons was crowded on Monday, in expectation of another debate and division on Lord Stanley's Irish Registration Bill. A good deal of conversation occurred us to the order in which busi- ness should be taken. Lord Joan BussELL refused to state any thing

positively, except that he should proceed with the Colonial Passengers Bill and the Admiralty Courts Bill. Lord STANLEY complained of the inconvenience which this mode of proceeding occasioned ; but Lord John Russell would say nothing more specific.

After the Colonial Passengers Bill had been disposed of, and Lord JOHN RUSSELL had moved the third reading of the Admiralty Courts Bill, Lord STANLEY said, he was most anxious to abstain from inter- fering with the regular course of public business; and asked Lord John to name Thursday, Friday, or Monday, to proceed with his bill.

It was finally agreed that the Irish Solicitor-General's Bill should be read a second time on Friday, without opposition ; but that Lord Stanley's Bill should be the first business taken on Friday ; and Lord STANLEY said, that should his own bill fail, he would endeavour to make Mr. Pigot's the groundwork of an efficient measure.

GRANT TO MAYNOOTIL COLLEGE.

Mr. ELUMPTBE, on Tuesday, presented several petitions against any further grant of 'public money to the Roman Catholic College of May - nooth ; and he moved a resolution, that after the current year no stun fbr the support of that institution should be voted— His principal objection to this College of 3i:13.1100th teas, that instead of it s pro- fessors and members being the alders and abet tors of religion, good order, and sub- mission to the laws of the land, they were ever fitund to he the leaders and pro- moters of disorder. Another ohit-etion was titillated of the works that were introduced there, which were destructive of the best principles of morality. The grant in effect went to suppert a religion that was at once idolatrous and unsocial. (Ironical cheers from ■ he illinhirrial benches.) it was a feeling among the Protestants of this country—a gruw hug and a lively feeling—(franicat cheers)—that they ought not to pay for the dissemination of a religion which, in their hearts, they believed to be contrary to the true religion ; and this inde- pendently of any other considerations arising out of the ductrines taught nt the College. Therefore it was that he fidt he ought not to shrink from his duty, but, upon the grounds of the nature of the adoration, the character or the books used, and the strong feeling of the Protestants, to move that after the present year the grant to Maynuoth should be discontinued.

Colonel PEuetivAt. seconded the motion.

Lord Monet:Yu entered into a history of the grant, to show thi,t the Government was pledged to continue it, mid that nothing had. micurred to release them front the virtual engagement. As to the charge of turbulence and bigotry, advanced against the Catholic clergy, he could easily show that Protestant clergymen had been engaged in virulent political agitation ; and Lord Morpeth road missi,gos from the sy,eAcs and writings of the listablished and Prosily terian clergy in support of his charge. lie taunted the petitioners, whose cease Mr. Plumptre ad- vocated, with the grossest inconsistency-- They started with the proposition that it was wrong to support a religion of which they disapproved. That taight be a very good opinion to hold ; lint it appeared to him that any one who conscientiously Mil that opinion was bound to support the Voluntary system. 'How any one coultl in common candour soy that it was wrong to support a religion which they thought erroneous, and yet exact the very stone support for another religion of 01110I'S who equally thought that erroneous—how they could allow the :;reat majority of Ili, people of this country to impose upon the vast majority of the people o!' Ire: and I he duty of supporting persons to advocate the tenets which the minority in Ire- land deemed wrung—be could Dot conceive. It seemed to him to be nth rly at variance with every nothm of consistency, of condom, and ut some,

(Load cheers, and a cry of " Very zee l! put," p.m as .11; r

Lion benches.) In this sense, the laws which required the pay :mini of church- rates from persons of all persuasions, ought to be instantly rr viii 1 ; and these rates—which, in his opinion, were a lair provision—if the Intsouritlite 3lember',: proposition were adopted, must he given up. l le could not conceive, he really could not see, if the 110Hour:dile Member called upon that House to support the rilion—if he called upon them to support the precut Tidie-commutat in Ireland, which was working better than could have Iwo or was anticipated— how, with any sense or candour, the honourable Member could grudge the paltry grant of 8,900/. a year, which was ail that they gave fiw religious pur- poses to the great portion of the people of Ireland, or to the supporters of that religion which extended its influence through every part of Ireland. The last thing which hod been brought against this td1ending College of Maynooth that a large part of the students had lately taken the "temperance pledge " at the 111111118 of a Roman Catholic clergyman, Father Matthew ; and in so &dog, in his opinion, they were giving an excellent example, and afforded a good omen for the flocks about to be committed to their charge. And he thou_] that Mr. Plumptre would do well to teach his fellow-religionists in England, and entl some in his ow n neighbourhood in Kent, to imitate the example, and to lay aside the filthy habit of drunkenness, and adopt a lily of sobriety, which would perhaps bring with it sonic of the Christian virtues of charity awl good- will; and that he would thus he doing mole gond to that religion ,0 warmly cherished than by calling upoa Parliament to del:v the :],tot wIdelt was now doled out to a large portion of our Iloman Cat title tee uc •subjects in Ireland.

Sir Roomer Imcms said, that the Government might not think it an open question whether the Established religion ought to be supported, or looked upon in the sante light as the religion of Dissenters--

The Government was bound to support the truth. and the truth alone. For himself, he never would consent to pay a sixpt. nee for teaching its the it of God what be believed to lie contrary to that Word. We were livit qr. in it Christian land, and the State and the Government ought to ;,iv.: no supitort to any bat it Christian Church fitunded upon truth; lecauttc, if they adopted any other rulet they might give a grant to every college—to the College of Mill- hill as well as the College of Maynouth, But the »obi, Lord went esen further, and had littered sentiments which would never have been tolerated in :my member of the Government forty years ago. (./rottleal avers franc the Xinis- feria! benches.) A pretty compliment was that iat..rropiion to those who oh conviction had granted, or against their conviction were .•ompelled to grant, to those who now cheered, the seats which coo hied them to cheer. Lord Mot peth had twice used the terms i " parochial clergy" as aybrlii i lu the ii m i in Cat ii. lie priests; so that time present Government must recognize the Roman ( 'at hone priests as the parochial clergy of Ireland. And the nolde Lord thought that, instead of 8,900/., they ought to add to the amount, fin- the pupate of adding humanities and refinements to the severer studies of the College. lie it sit, it the members were of the Established religion—Marrs froat the Hinisteeiol benches)—hut unless the honourable Members who eltecwd, and :acing them the honourable Member for Kerry, were prepared to vote sums for the support of the Memnonites and the Moraanites, and were propated to propose grants to members of every persuasion, they could not support the present grant. Pc held that it was not right, when the great majority of the people of England recognized the Church of England as the repository of Divine truth, I tat they should give to any other religion tine countenance which this vote was likely to afford.

Parliament bad taken from other institutions the money they received from the old Irish Parliament, and the implied obligations to continue the grant to AIaynouth no longer existed.

Mr. SIIEIL replied' to Sir Robert Inglis, commencing ills speech as follows- " Salamanca would in the Spani•li Curios be faithfully represented by the Member whom a Protestant I 'inversity delegates to this limit e. lie is a con- sistent politician, whose virtues are best illustrated by the Iteration metaphor; for if any man ever was, the honourable Baronet must he on all hands ad- mitted to be talus tern, :ague rottinthis.' (Great Imitihtee.) In some of his positions, however, there is a good deal of anomaly : lie says, that because the Prote.tant eharter-schoola were deprived of the fund once annually voted to then', we ought to perpetrate What 1111101.11ItS to a violation of Conservative principle in reference to the Catholic seminary of Maynoollt. The case of Alaymattli rests on a clear contract entered into before the thnion, and ratified by Act of Parliament" lie showed by reference to arts of l'arliament, that Tory -.7,Iinisters had considered it a wise phi!). to eirtiiirse tl:e education of't.Iatholie priests at home, ins..ead of c,»11,,,til1og them to silk instruetimi abroad ; and that, in point a fact, the enduvlinent of .Moyitooth was guaranteed by the law of the hold-- `° Mr. Pcrceval w...s a gtoid. eii.lny if Popery—Imre it the deepest antipathy, yet found himself hound ley , two Irish acts of Parliament.

It was not, I trust, in the -1•:. t: •-: ou•... fraud I ha: the Member tin. Kent sup-

pressed ..Mr. Ptirceval's opil,.•. int proud. Las been annually made : but I 11:l\ (lure Heel .1 ,* *i I. .1`.1r. 1'ertet,..1. I hold in my hand ;tinGFuik4uur' n. ti •.• :\litynouth, he says that 1111 it • nu :L. the faith Intl,t remain immricktos Fir. tyn,:de Oa (i".1.. • •..t ::it • 11,1ing against the Catholic Mr. I Lit oineir I.t-iti I ...HI. 'trued to the nrst page of :11 ehmht is cm,

Oxford. It is crih. 1,, vicissitudes of a ilieo,ond

famous t'eal• 1.. I..

1 Will nut a.-1 re srevo I I -•,.' Vela fire to ret1or to the words are taken from a letter to the l'eotc .

versity of wa-

ace taught in the

mblage mued it,

of uppruuhriou < c-, •iii . strain bine elf frion an bolt: ts of one-1111,11 ill tio however, through the • iscut to • rush it: where u.e,.t she pri (alas and ticr patiene:- whielt miser:tire:. 110 is

listening to hint I a»1 1..

"Idt.••"

The honourable geI,lt.••,t1.1', have lived two hundred twitted Parliament or mum: of a religioo, by the hulmurablc

Mr. hirrox cm, on the ground tit.... '.. ..•

to the Pope wane Iti; it. r • :\ Ir. AV :t RD rem: r■st.-t!,

i diametrically opposite o

duty, when he ty C:m b„! tedsionn,-

'['lhe honourable rlar.m..1 t! ill I., i•ithil rot give one lenCe to any

Church rend,: ; 1,i I Ile kid it down as an in:- couticivemlilde principle, that 1111 :L II I tt■l1,■1117, the Support of

it religion in which he did Ilile moment sup- port that ergntneut, rut! ai uI • e. it I - • e of Coe revenue of

the Church of H ' R. :id laid down prin- cipl..s the most inttii,rsi.•

fit three hundred mt. ( ter to rots to Iitllow a titrtir in that !louse principle which 'Mgt,: ' • ..1. I t •••. •-•1: ',Tilsit ion—to apply the secular :trio to is. Pi iv. I I ott- e to rescind a grant of t^,900/. matte i1ii. .1 of a population of

• ,Mitt, is as ammhahy cuttcrtained upon this: sohjio 1 : l's trusted that lie should not lie disappointed in finding1I..,t he had 1I •.• linitoor of voting in the same list with him.

Sir llottrier PEEL said, t!rit \Var.; v. its a true prophet in regard to the vote he should give, lest t in his anticipations of the speed' he should make-- I le was not going to rebuke the prlicy c • with whom be had thy honour to act, or to express airy dissatisfavi ion ill nta of the course which had been taken. Ile was hound to no that he » • awe that there 5, as Ito Member of the House of Commons who, when he did t:,he 1.11111.:C in 1110,lie life, was actuated by more pure, eOti,,eiellti011F,!1:111 diSilltere,it."111IlltiVCS than Mr. Phonon ; but he had not the slightest hesitation is :Lel wing that he should give has vote in opposition to the motion which he hand avm iag the grounds upon which he should give that vote. If he was not preportd to vote for the imme- diate withdrawal of this grant, Ile was equally unprepared to vote for with- t 1 .• of

• : •

iI, it tinthe ' 1 . r. !,..r for that ;Him Ha years? t: but i will I ill—. These

- I•iii-

• ftl••• rt:s-

1 in. ii'- m tlto use lbr Kent i I not re-

. itrairitt the religion and the ooid I will not follow I les. avti he Air oilier for

it1 he prcao'licx, I practise i• .• lialristrance 1 of Christian c.•i•e. 1 milt that in i -•for be must it ie. the cele- »ith the • t.:,et.s to, presented

khuseUna ; chiefly . i c thud. allegiance .ntt r, i : mtiments aru''au-ily uphold on a future ine money for ('hartin-ex- seven Wilde in • :1

given for the support of the elit.ty.

Strong objections !rid 1.t.en made by Mr. irie dre to the endowment of a political prie.-•thccd -- Wm; 111,re ,1

who could Itii t I : charges of lit hear litipleinte.tt trotl:. politics lois,' tip wet.

that it NV■I,:r, uf i.•I :I the Irish clergy as licit The t»ution, however,

e'l'ect of it v.-0 Ad • Plitinptre • tue I I. •

that as mai.■- L;. t ,

deg-,:art nit • coming to it di Itpon this 1,—. it wt.,i U'., Sir iiiihert Pe .-I in his place: ,

rebuke the polic. of Slane of 111 ..*: ,.rt , III 1

it tt•y: ! • hy the llrnihrrs for ()NM,

hear Itobert Peel rise , 1',- ere tItore no cleu•gy whippers-in i'llimptre spoke thus, bringing tiirwaril t. rl to he niet in the :tame way, and to Ito doubt that there was just as much has VIA' ()I Ireland. Ile thought 'Larch ; hut it was absurd to spyak. of • Iy who extrted any inlbienee. could not 1111 agreed to, for the ,.,...• of When Mi% -,.ate,!, he must be aware lute; ti t.,• 10 prevent the , t 1, • :.'••".,••• them in 1.'•a•otit t hat he saw i;eoe, order to • :i :it). from the acre taken it Ilitiote would the views lie drawing it next year. After for thirty or forty years voting the grant—after persons have been entered for education at M tyuooth on the faith of its con- tinuance—it was impossible to withdraw it without involving such persons in much embarrassment. But he had been thirty years years in Parliament, and having voted constantly for the grant to Maynooth, he was not now prepared to give a vote which would imply that in those former votes he bad been guilty of any violation of principle or any act of misconduct.

He called to mind the circumstances under which the vote had been first given— It was established at a time when religious animosities ran as high in Ireland, and when division betneen Catholics and Protestants was as great as now. Yet that vote was first agreed to by a Parliament exclusively Protestant ; and they consented to it for the express purpose of discouraging a system of education which they thought had a tendency to infect the Roman Catholic population with Jaeobinical principles. The vote survived the Act of Union, and it was continued by Mr. Perceval in 1806—reduced in amount, it is true, but con- tinued after the election of 1806, ut a time when religious animosities were at their height in this country. It wits continued after the removal of the Catholic disabilities. Ile could not now consent to withdraw a vote that had originated under such circumstances—that had survived so many collisions of political and religious opinion. Nor could h.: help thinking that political consequences productive of notch evil would he likely to follow the discontinuance of such a vote, which would be consul: red as an indication of hostility towards the Roman Catholic population.

At the same time, he advised the conductors of the Maynooth seminary to conciliate the good-will of the Protestants, and to encourage, not op- pose, inquiry into their system of instruction-

.% far from being subjected to any injurious imputation for submitting to inquiry, he thought that those concerned in Maynooth ought to be the very first to challenge it. But on nothing short of absolute proof of the existence of abuse would he be prepared to ground any support he mig I it give to a motion for the withdrawal of the giant. Ile ceefessed at the rain,: tittle, that he should support the grant with much more satislitetion to himself if there had been a full inquiry, and a complete answer given to the accusations that had been made, titan he could do now, when he saw on the part of many persons who were by no means hostile to the Boman Catholic Church, an impression that the system admitted of great improvement, and a desire to have it inquired into, Mr. Molloax Jour O'CONNELL said, that Boman Catholics were positively indifferent to lime continuance of the grant ; but the proposal to discontinue it certainly came most appropriately from the Member of that part of Kent which contained the Metropolitan see, acid was the scene of Missionary Thom's exploits.

Mr. Sergeant JACKSON advised Mr. Plumptre to withdraw his motion, and substitute a motion, On some future occasion, for an inquiry into the course of instruction carried on at 'Maynooth.

Mr. LASCELLES was extremely sorry to have beard much that had fallen front Members near him ; mid expressed entire concurrence with what bad fallen from Sir Robert Peel.

Colonel SlBT1mo1vE hoped the motion would be withdrawn. Mr. PLU3IPTRE expressed his willingness to withdraw it.

Mr. Hum: objected to the withdrawal. The sense of the House ought to be taken on a motion of this kind, regularly brought forward after notice given.

Mr. Baneost said, it was notorious that 3Iembers opposite had gained their seats by the base and cowardly manlier in which they had attacked Maynooth.

The 8eFaKeR called Mr. Barron to order for applying the words e' base and cowardly" to Members of the house.

Mr. Ila elms withdrew the expressions ; butt afterwards declared it was the very acme of baseness to shrink from the division.

Mr. CIIRISTOPBER called Mr. Barron. to order. His words distinctly applied to the Opposition Members.

Mr. BARRON was sorry hip. observations were found to be so applicable to Mr. Christopher's friends.

The House divided, and rejected the motion, by 121 to

IMPORTATION FOltEIGN FLOUR.

Mr. LABOUCIIERE, 011 Monday, moved time third reading of the bill to authorize the importatiou of foreign flour nut) Ireland.

Sir ROBERT I3ATESON moved that the bill be read a second time that day six mouths.

Colonel Cosan.se seconded the motion.

Mr. Mona OTERRALL and Mr. Beasilset were against the amend- scent; Mr. Sergeant JACKSON and Mr. (noisily Gone for it. A divi- sion took place; and the anemluent was carried, by 90 to 79. So the bill was lost.

PUNISHMENT OF

Mr. FITZROY KELLY, on Tuesdny, moved for leave to bring in a bill to abolish the punishment of death except in cases of murder and high treason. Ile was obliged to ninth that no existing law provided tin efficient or adequate secondary punishment fur the prevention of crime ; but it did not follow from that admission that the punishment of death should be needlessly, and therefore wrongfully, inflicted. lie saw no insurmountable difficulty in establishing a good system of se- condary punishment in this country, preparatory to the transportation of offenders to foreign lands—a system by which the most hardened might be reformed instead of being turned loose upon the world to mingle with their old associates in crime. his bill would cut down the :number of offences for which the law now decreed the punishment of death, from fourteen to four. A few years ago the number of capital offences was two hundred ; they were now reduced to fourteen ; and yet no increase had occurred iii thitt description of crimes,—a cogent argument for diminishing the munbsr of these which still rendered the culprit obnoxious to execution. The strongest objections to his bill came from those who thought that rape, and the attempt to murder, though unsuccessful, ought to be punished with death—

It had been put to him by those to whose intellect and perfect knowledge of the subject, and to whose great ability and experience lie paid the greatest deference, and for whom he entertained the highest respect, ‘• Can there be

any difference in the guilt of a man who shoots at another from liehind a hedge and grievously wounds him, intending to murder him, and teat es him for dead, because he does not kill him, and because through the skill ie. the surgeon his victim is restored to life?" Ile would meet that question fitirly and openly ; and if he failed to satisfy the House, that upon principles which were recog- nized and admitted by all, there was no necessity fur capital punishment in the case of an ineffectual and unsuccessful attempt to murder, then ho would ne. longer hope for the sanction of the House to the bill he was about to introduce, at least as far as this offence was concerned. If it were the only object of punishment, or if it formed any material part of punishment, to inflict ven- geance upon the offender according to the moral evil he had committed, he was willing to admit that there was no manner of difference between the crime of a man who attempted unsuccessfully, and him who attempted successfully to murder another. But surely the time was past when the degree of moral guilt was to form any consideration in the amount of punishment awarded by a human tribunal. The only object of the legal and judicial punishments of inen was, to deter the offender from a repetition of his crime, and others from following his evil example. There were many heinous offences which, by the law of England, were not punishable at all. The law did not profess to punish according to the amount of moral turpitude. The crimes of seduction and adultery, for instance, crimes which disgraced and tortured families and pro- duced incalculable misery to persons and mischief to property, were wholly unpunishable by the criminal laws of this country.

If it were conceded that the object of legislation was not punishment of the guilty, but to deter others from the commission of crime, he thought he should be able to convince the House that attempts at mur- der ought not to be punished with death— The dread of the law was supposed to operate upon the man who attempted to commit murder ex ri termini, and who expected to succeed. Would it not have tin equal, nay, a greater effect upon him who attempted to kill with less determination of purpose ? As long as a man was punishable by death for murder, so long would there be security afforded by the law against attempted murders. And let it be remembered what the effect of the change in the law which he proposed would be upon men when under the excitement or tempta- tion to commit murder. In looking at the history of crime, in nine eases out of ten attempts to commit murder were found to arise out of attempts to rob, or burglaries, or when persons were seized with a sudden passion, and gave blows, or tired shots, or stabbed others. Was the successful and unsuccessful attempt to murder to be punished alike ? Would they take away all induce- ment thong a man, who having struck the first blow, but not having despatched his victim, relented, and would not repeat the blow, but for the sake of pre- venting detection, and saving his own life ? The effect of the present law was to make such a man complete the murder, because no difference was made between the successful and the unsuccessful attempt at murder. Upon what principle of.' it,tice and humanity were both to be punished alike ? Could such a practice promote the safety of the community? No; because it tended to make criminals more hardened and desperate, and complete offences which otherwise they would not. Ile remembered some cases which had come under his ONIII observation. The following case was tried in the county of York, lie believed A young man was attacked on the highway and robbed. The person by whom he was assailed was a much more powerful man than himself, but in the course of the struggle he struck him a severe blow which nearly fractured his skull. The robber turned upon him and would have killed him, but on his knees he prayed him to spare his life. The robber did so, and at the trial the prosecutor implored the Court to spare the life of the robber, but in vain. The man was not only convicted and sentenced, but executed. If the law established no distinction between those who showed mercy to their victims and those who practised towards them the extreme of cruelty, what motive to be merciful could he expend to arise in the breasts of men engaged in the per- pOration of a crime?

The same argument applied to cases of rape. A law which impri- sons ravishers gives an inducement to them to spare the lives of their victims ; but thin law which made rape a capital offence held out a strong inducement to the ravisher to get rid of the principal witness against him, by murder. It was also to be remembered, that in no case was the evidence more suspicious than that of a woman who declared she had been ravished. The temptation to preserve her reputation was great, and it would be most difficult to prove her testimony false. Then came the question of identity : fearful mistakes had been made sometimes— A case of that kind had occurred during the present year in a no very dis- tant county., which was as strong a one as he coulhl at the moment adduce. A. young woman of excellent character was returning home one evening, and a rape was committed upon her. She had heard the person who followed her called by a particular name, she noticed his features, and ou going the next clay to the village, saw, as she supposed, the man who committed the offence. She charged him ; he was taken before a Magistrate ; she swore he was the man, and her testimony was supported by a female companion, who deposed to the accused having been called by a particular name, which proved to be his real mune. The case, upon the whole, was one of circumstantial evidence so clear, that it was received without hesitation, and the man was committed for trial. On that very evening the brother of the accused heard what had oc- curred, and knowing himself to be the guilty man, he went to time village where the young woman resided, and the moment she saw him she exclaimed, " I have taken a like oath—that is the man." He mentioned this as a case which had actually occurred, and which, therefore, might possibly occur again. Did it not furnish an irresistible argument for the abolition of time punishmeut of death, except in the most extreme eases, such as murder and treason ? Ilow could the Legislature justify to itself tile continuance of a law wider which in- nocent lives might be sacrificed?

From a cursory, not a careful inquiry, he had ascertained that seven- teen innocent persons had been sentenced to death during the present century ; of whom eight only had been executed, but the entire inno- cence of the seventeen had been firmly established. Then there were instances without number of the escape of guilty persons, through the reluctance of juries to convict when the verdict led to the execution of the offenders— A striking instance occurred not long since. An old man in Buckingham- shire was robbed of 701. and savagely murdered. His son, a young: man eigh- teen years of age, was tried for the crime at Aylesbury. The trial lasted a long lime, and theevidence adduced tminst the prisoner was such as would be considered conclusive of his guilt in the mind of any man. But the jury par- ticipating in time reluctance now so generally entertained by men in their situa- tion to return a verdict which would affect the life of the prisoner, availed themselves of some trilling circumstances in the case which favoured the cul- prit, and, to the surprise of everyone, pronounced him not guilty. The same young man was tried at the ensuing Assizes for the robbery of his father's dead body, was convicted without a moment's hesitation, and se tented to be trans- ported to New South Wales. This afforded a convincing proof that, however atrocious the crime, jurors, where the punishment was death, would not con- vict whilst there was the slightest loepliole through which the prisoner could escape.

What be had said with respect to rape, and attempts to murder, ap- plied with equal force to burglary, piracy, and arson— it had been said that if the capital punishment were abolished for arson—for setting fire to a dwellinghouse—a man might be the means of burning a whole family, and yet would escape the penalty of death. That was not the case for if in consequence of his setting fire to a house, a single human life were lost, the law would consider him guilty of murder, and he would be punished accordingly. It was necessary to consider the effects of public executions on the morals of the humbler classes— If it were necessary upon any other grounds to inflict the punishment of .death, it was at least absurd to say that it had any other effect upon the by- standers than that of further depraving and corrupting their minds. No man who had read the newspaper accounts of public executions for malty years past could come to any other conclusion than that they afforded occasions for the gathering together of the very worst and most vicious members of the commu- nity, who, instead of taking warning from the public exhibition of the terrors of the law, treated it as a subject of coarse and disgusting, ribaldry—plied with a busy baud at the very foot of the scaffold their own craft in the various grades of guilt—and in the indulgence of the grossest and foulest debaucheries termi- nated a scene which the law designed for their reformation and amendment. On these grounds he conceived that in all these cases, and particularly in those , to which he had alluded, the spectacle of public executions had every thing but a beneficial effect. In no case where the severity of the law had been mitigated bad the number of offences increased, whilst in every case the certainty of con- viction and punishment was doubled.

Mr. Ewater seconded the motion, and spoke briefly in support of it.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL complimented Mr. Kelly on the ability and eloquence he had displayed. He would not oppose his motion ; but was obliged in fairness to state that he could not aid its further progress. He must have time to consider before he consented to any further abolition of capital punishment— When they had to a great extent abolished capital punishments, he thought they were bound, for the sake of the peace of the country, to take care and provide a sufficient system of secondary punishments. lie had considerable doubts whether experience would warrant him in saying that transportation was the best mode of secondary punishment. If it Was adopted, it ought to he made the commencement of a really effective punishment to the criminal, and not the commencement of a life as under the present assignment system, where he was often transferred as a valet or clerk to some master in a populous town, and enjoyed luxuries which he had never before been accustomed to. Transportation ought to be looked on as a considerable infliction, and ought to bold the next rank after capital punishment. For certain crimes of the highest sort he thought the punishment of death ought still to be retained ; for others, they ought to extend the system of separate impri,onment, which he thought produced the best effects on the prisoner, lie did not think that they had sufficient time, nor hail they sufficient information to decide upon any system at present ; but they ought to endeavour to form some consistent system before they called on the House to legislate. lie told Mr. Kelly that, in acceding to his present motion, he thanked him for the light that lie had thrown on the subject, and he thought the House and the country were indebted to him for this. But he was not disposed to support him in the further stage:: 0f the bill.

Mr. Huila; expressed his entire concurrence with Mr. Kelly.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did not think the time had arrived when

• they could advance further in the abolition of capital punishments ; and lie hoped that Mr. Kelly, content is ith permission to introduce his bill, would allow it to stand over till next session. There was another point he wished to notice— Why was the bill confined to England alone ? Ought there not to be one mea- sure for the United Kingdom ? There was nothing'in the state of either Scot- land or Irehoul so dissimilar to England, as to make it necessary to exclude them from a measure 10;.• t!o, nre!2!It.

Mr. KELLY replied, that, impelled by a sense of duty, lie would ro-it delay the progress of his bill unnecessarily for a sing12 ;lour—

If it had not affected the life of his fellow beings, no one would have been readier than himself to yield to the request of his learned friend; but, consider- ing the nature and objects of the bill—the mischievous consequences of having the administration of the law different from the law—he felt bound to take the sense of the House as to the progress of his bill. lie meant to move the se- cond reading for the earliest possible day. He only regretted that lie had put off the bill in consequence of a statement made to him that the noble Lord meant to take the sense of the Mouse on the first reading. Ile did not despair of being able to pass the bill during the present session ; and he hoped to have the assistance of his learned friend, who, on the second reading, might make a motion to include Scotland and Ireland.

Leave given to bring in the bill.

SALARY OF THE ADMIRALTY JuDoD.

Lord Joitx RUSSELL, on Monday, moved the third reading of the bill to fix the salary of the Admiralty Judge.

Lord IloTitax moved a proviso to prevent the Judge sitting in any future Parliament.

Mr. HumE seconded the motion.

Mr. WARD opposed it. Ile would vote to exclude all judicial func- tionaries from the House, but would resist a motion to exclude a single individual.

Mr. SHAW was prepared to vote against the motion ; but as he held a judicial office himself', would retire it' the House thought lie ought not to remain.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL had certainly heard nothing to alter the opinion he had formerly expressed against this motion—

For his own part, however, he had always maintained that it was for the ad- vantage of the constitution of this House that there should be in it as many men of learning as the people would send to it. The honourable and lemma Member for the Tower hamlets was a mon of education and talent, and he should therefore be sorry to see the (louse deprived of his services. Having stated his opinions upon this subject, he should not, however, call for a division ; perceiving that the sense of the House was against him, and in favour of the amendment.

The amendment having been agreed to, the bill was passed.

It was taken to the Lords on Tuesday, and read a first time. The second reading passed with the single remark from Lord Ilftouowin, that the Judge's salary was too small and his patronage too large.