atbatts anb %hatchings in Varliament.

STATE OF IRELAND.

The adjourned debate on Ireland was opened on Monday by Mr. Boraxes/ ; who entered his protest, as an English Member, against the policy pursued by the present Government.

Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT, as an Irish proprietor, regretted the mode in which Irish affairs were discussed as a party question; and, censuring the Opposition for the unfair use which they made of the exciting topic, he considered the remedies for the exigency, and its difficulties— After a laboured gestation, Lord John Russell brought forth measures so small that the birth seemed to be premature; and in his views respecting the payment of the Roman Catholic clergy, and his protest against the Voluntary system, no one on his own side supported him ; while he himself admitted that the chief measures which he recommended were impracticable. Mr. Herbert regretted to hear Lord John Russell and Sir James Graham say that the en- dowment of the Roman Catholic clergy was impossible, because he thought that clergy ought to be endowed by the State. He was anxious to see them placed in a situation above the necessity of taking part in political agitation. He believed it was a fact not denied, that in many parts of Ireland where an indisposition had been manifested on the part of the priests to join political agitation, it bad been difficult for them to obtain their dues. He believed that the people bad themselves protested against the amount of those dues, and that it was found necessary to euperadd political enthusiasm to religious influence in order to obtain them. He had also heard of places in which, when political agitation ceased, this difficulty was renewed. This table state of things, more especially in the Roman Catholic WAS opposed to the very essence of their religion. The Roman ,...v.1110,4„,*ion was one so attached to order that it had often been accused of .Q.51464 .4,, to liberty. Such being the case, lie could conceive nothing tic elergy,ef a monarchical religion deriving their stipends

from political agitation. Be wished to see thoranks of the Roman Catholic clergy filled from a higher order of men. Be knew, indeed, the hostility that existed, especially among Protestant Dissenters, to any thing like a State re- cognition of what they deemed to be the errors of the Roman Catholic Church ; and, knowing these things, it would be unreasonable in him to call on any Go- vernment to propose measures which could only end in disappointment. Be had hopes, however, from the progress of public opinion, that ultimately they would succeed ; and meanwhile, he accepted the proposal of the Govern- ment for legalizing the gift of land to the clergy, as the very best substitute that could he formed for their payment by the State. He had great hopes that not only by Boman Catholic but by Protestant landholders advantage would be taken of that measure, and that it would be carried out in the kindly feeling in which it was proposed. Re also looked with satisfaction to the measures of education. Be thought it an extraordinary thing to see the Irish peasant come over to England to reap the harvest, associate with well-regulated people,

surrounded by artificial comforts, and then return not with a bad impression of those be had left —for, with that kindness of heart and gratitude for which,

above all men, the Irish peasant was distinguished, he was sure to bring back the following year his present of whisky to the farmer for whom he Lad worked—but return the same man he had left, having no wish for the com- forts or the civilization he had witnessed. Be could not help thinking that this was mainly attributable to the want of education. To the proposals of Ministers he gave, not the lukewarm vote of a subordinate in office, but his earnest, hearty, and thankful support.

Mr. SMYTHE rose to disavow a commendation of Tyrconners govern- ment, incidentally ascribed to him by the last speaker ; and be urged Government to proceed with their measures of amelioration in the spirit that animated Mr. Herbert.

Mr. Joins O'CONNELL spoke partly in support of the motion, but more against the Government.

The Roman Catholics, he said, were satisfied with their priesthood : their religion was one which beet adapted itself to every phase of society—fostering liberty in Belgium, checking its wild irregularities in North America, restrain- log the Irish under excitement, sustaining them under distress and poverty. As one of the " convicted conspirators," he rose to make a parting declaraticai to Ministers before be returned to Ireland further to incur their vengeance; for be should continue to exert himself, with no more ability perhaps, but with more ardour and zeal than ever, to incur their vengeance by exerting himself in the cause of his country. Be did not rise for the purpose of offering any apology, or urging any thing in palliation of that for which he, among others, bad had the honour of having been convicted. If he had any personal feelingr, it would be an anxiety that, as be was young and strong, a heavier weight of punishment might be inflicted on him, and a lighter on another who had been struggling for many years in the cause of his country. Last year, the Irish were told that concession bad reached its limit : they betook themselves to peaceful agitation. It was said that they should have come to Parliament : Mr. Smith O'Brien did so, and was refused all inquiry. Proceeding more into particulars in condemning the course of Government, Mr. John O'Connell averred that the proclamation against the Clontarf meeting was not in the hands of the Mayor of Dublin until four o'clock on the Saturday, and was not posted in the village of Blackrock, which might be reached ix ten minutes by the railroad, until it was too late to read. As to the proseets. tions, he despised them; and he would not dwell on the paltry chicanery by which Catholics were excluded from the Jury-list. He did not say that the Jury were capable of violating their oaths : he believed that they gave their verdict in all the sincerity of inveterate bigotry. He men- tioned a rumour that two members of the Dublin Privy Council recom- mended that no proclamation should issue; but that the meeting should be allowed to assemble, that troops should be brought to the spot, that the Riot Act should be read, and fifteen minutes be allowed for dispersing. (, 014 oh 1") As to the measures proposed, the Irish people distrusted whatever came from the gentlemen opposite. Suppose the franchise were amended, would Ireland be allowed a greater number of Members in the House, or would one-third of the empire be still allowed less than one-fifth of the representation? There was a talk of improving the law of landlord and tenant an important but dangerous subject ; for a most grievous error in regard to it now prevails in Ireland— those who have been lately ejected suppose that the Commission was issued to restore them to their former holdings. He implored the Government to take some efficient measure, and not to fall short of expectation : or they would have to fear, not a political revolution, but a wild, mad, and universal outbreak of maddened and despairing wretches, which would shake the whole frame- work of society in Ireland. As for the parties who were now in the power of the Government, they did not supplicate for mercy, nor would they. But let the Government adopt some measure that would do good to Ireland—bring back to Ireland Irish money—revivify her commerce—and the people of Ire- land would then believe the Government were sincere.

Colonel VERNER reprobated the policy of concession. Captain LAYARD assailed the Tory policy, and the conduct of the trials. Mr. FERRAND attacked Mr. O'Connell, and the Opposition sympathy with him.

Sir CHARLES NAPIER, in a rambling speech, defended Mr. O'Con- nell; while he pronounced Repeal to be nonsense—as he believed Mr. O'Connell knew as well as anybody ; and he recommended division of Church endowments according to the proportion of congregations. He illustrated the tithe grievance by an anecdote— He recollected, some years since, going up from the Cove of Cork to Cork fis a species of vehicle the good people of the place called a fly, although, in truth, its rapidity did not do justice to its denomination. (A laugh.) Well, in this fly there happened to be a young girl, or perhaps some of his honourable friends would prefer his calling her a young lady —(Laughter)—he that as it may, she WRS a decent, respectable-looking girl—(Continued laughter)—and he said to her, " I suppose you are all quiet in this country now that the tithes are com- muted, and you are no longer compelled to pay them to the parson." "Lord help you, Sir," said she "it is as bad with the people as ever. Do you see that man working in the field )(Alder? Well, then, that man is obliged to pay tithe to the parson for sending his soul to the Devil, and then to pay the priest for preventing his soul from going there." (Great laughter.)

Mr. GORE supported Government. Mr. J. O'Baxes urged the claim* of Ireland in terms not dissimilar to previous Opposition speeches.

Mr. MONCRTON MILERS opposed the motion, hut recognized the grievances and claims of Ireland.

Be condemned Lord John Russell for having combined two such subjects AS eriticism on the late trials with the future condition of Ireland. Contending that it was impossible that the abuses of ages could be neutralized by a few pages of an act of Parliament, be said that to taunt Government with not taking up some question in particular, was to taunt them with not putting an end to their own existence. Feelings opposed to the Catholics have taken deep root among the people of this country; and it was extraordinary that Members should propose, without any of those proceedings by which public opinion is changed to sanction the destruction of the Protestant Church in Ireland. A great deal, however, might be done by soneiliating.the,religieus feeling of the Lis& people ; and it was remarkable that almost every young Member who had spoken had expressed very nearly the same opinions. At the end of last century, the Protestant Bishop of Kilhiloe and the Reverend Dr. Alexander Knox had recommended, that as the Roman Catholic Church could not be destroyed it should be ameliorated. That should be the task of Government. The Government had begun rightly by giving the Roman Catholic Prelates the means of establishing endowments by persons of their own persuasion : the titles of the dignitaries ought also to be recognized ; and perfect equality should be established between the two religions. He should not be much frightened even at seeing a few respectable theologians with purple stockings sitting as legislators in the House of Lords. He cautioned the Opposition, however, against evoking the " No Popery " cry ; and he finished by a general exhorta- tion not to harp upon the past, but to legislate according to the circum- stances of the present.

Mr. MAcetrzav looked to the anomalous position of Ireland—its vast natural resources, but debased condition, governed not by love, but by fear ; and for illustration of the subject he went far back into the history of Ireland, bringing a rapid survey down to the present time. The primary cause of the evils of Ireland is the manner in which that coun- try became annexed to the English crown : it was a conquest, and one of a peculiar kind, that of race over race—like that of the Mahrattas in Gwalior, or that of the Spaniards over the American Indians—the very worst species of tyranny. In England, the several races—Celt and Saxon, Dane and Nor- man—have been fused together to form the great and united English people : in Ireland, the Reformation prevented that fusion: the English colonists adopted the new doctrines ; the aborigines remained true to the ancient faith, alone among all the nations of the North; and the feud has descended to our own times. The spirit of English liberty was inverted in the religious strug- gles of Ireland : its English defenders, such as Pym, Hampden, and Milton, excepted the Catholics from their tolerance ; the Princes, who did not respect the free rights of conscience in English Dissenters, favoured their Catholic sub- jects, as the Stuarts did. Under severe oppression, the Catholics rose and were twice put down—by Cromwell, whose system was simply extermination ; and by King William, whose object was completely to Anglicize Ireland, re- ducing the Catholics to the condition of Helots in Sparta, of the Greeks in Turkey, and of the Coloured population in Pennsylvania. To that period are to be referred all the horrible abuses in the relation between landlord and te- nant. In proposing the Union, Mr. Pitt wished it to comprise the relief of Catholics from civil disabilities, and a provision for their clergy ; and if that had been done, the Irish Union would have been as safe now as the Scotch; whereas the concession of Catholic Emancipation, long refused to the moat in- telligent thinkers, was granted to the fear of civil war ; and the people were thus taught that nothing was to be got by reason, every thing by fear. These causes explain great part of the discontent which has been a proof of con- etant misgovernment in Ireland, from the reign of Henry the Second to that of William the Fourth. By good treatment, the malady of Ireland might be put off, until the habit of tranquillity should become an habitual and healthy condition. Sir Robert Peel's irritants produced nothing but a series of paroxysms. Had a foreign army landed in 1840, it would have met with as warm a reception in Munster as in Kent or Suffolk. "Under what circumstances and by what means were these effects produced? Not by great legislative boons, conferred by the Government upon the Irish people— for that Government, although it had the inclination, had not the• power, against the strength of a powerful minority in this House and of a decided majority in the other House, to carry any such legislative measure. No, it was merely the effect of an Executive Administration; which, vexed and thwarted as it was at every turn, contending, as it had to contend, against the whole power of the Established Church, and a very formidable portion of the aristocracy and the landed gentry, yet did, with such means and such powers as it had in hand, and was able to use honestly and in good faith, aim at the equality of civil and religious rights, and endeavour to conciliate the affections of the Irish people. And I cannot help thinking, that if that Administration had been as strong in Parliamentary support as the present—if they had been able to carry into full effect measures for extending to Ireland the benefits of the British constitution—that in one generation, by such administration and legislation, the Union would have been as secure as trial by jury." The Libe- ral Government, however, were assailed by the "No Popery" cry, the talk about "aliens," "minions of Popery," a "dmmon priesthood," and "surpliced ruffians." Lord Stanley introduced his Registration Bill ; which now his own Government pronounce to be a disfranchising measure. They had evoked the spirit of religious intolerance : it bore them into power; and now they find themselves called upon to govern, in this country and in Ireland, about eight millions of Catholics, with the whole Catholic body—an unprecedented cir- cumstance — arrayed against the Government. These were the Ministers' difficulties, and they were of their own making. What had they done to extricate themselves ? They had carried the Arms Bill ; and they had issued the Clontarf proclamation,—which they delayed, weighing words and sentences while they should have been weighing the lives of the Queen's subjects. In the institution and conduct of the prosecution Ministers had shown themselves incompetent to appreciate the circumstances around them and to estimate the result of the proceedings. They were mis- taken if they supposed that the interest in Mr. O'Connell was confined to this country. "Go where you will upon the Continent, dine at any table-d'hote, tread upon any steam-boat, enter any conveyance, from the moment your speech betrays you an Englishman, the very first question asked—whether by the merchants or manufacturers in the towns in the heart of France, or by the peasants, or by the class who are like our yeomen in this country—is, what has become of Mr. O'Connell? (Cheers, and cries of " Oh, oh! ") Let those who deny this assertion take the trouble to turn over the French journals. It is a most unfortunate, it is a most unhappy fact, but it is impossible to dispute, that there is throughout the Continent a feeling respecting the connexion be- tween England and Ireland not very much unlike that which exists with re- spect to the connexion between Russia and Poland. I may remind the House, that the Irish agitation has on the Continent two aspects, which enlist the sympathies in common of Royalists and Democrats. As a popular movement, It is looked upon with favour by the Extreme Left in France, or the Demo- cratic part ; while, by its involving the cause of Catholicism, it obtains to itself the countenance of the Extreme Right, and those who espouse the cause of the Pretender : and in this manner it has probably created a union of support on the Continent of Europe stronger than any other question of our domestic politics was ever known to possess. I do not, it is unnecessary for me to say, urge this for the purpose of frightening the English Government ; but I do say, that on this question, it is of the greatest importance that the proceedings which the Government have taken should be beyond impeachment, and that they should have obtained a victory in such a way that that victory should not be to them a greater disaster than a defeat. Has that been the result ? It is not to be denied that Mr. O'Connell has suffered a distinct wrong. Is it denied that if the law had been carried into effect without those irregularities and that negligence which have attended the Irish trials, Mr. O'Connell's chance of ac- quittal would have been better ?—No person denied that. The affidavit which has been produced, and which has not been contradicted, states that twenty- seven Catholics were excluded from the Jury-list. Take the Recorder's own statement. It is very easy to talk of seven hundred and twenty names being reduced to forty-eight; but what is the forty-eighth part of seven hundred and

twenty ? Fifteen. Now, if these fifteen names happened to be Roman Ca- tholics, there was an even chance that another Catholic would be one of the forty-eight. But it is admitted that twenty-seven Catholics were omitted from the list ; and this would give almost an even chance of there being two Catholics among the forty-eight. Will any human being tell me that Mr. O'Connell has not, by that violation of the law, suffered a distinct wrong ? I know that all the technicalities of the law were on the aide of the Crown; but my great charge against the Government is, that they have merely regarded this question in a technical point of view." Of the future measures proposed Mr. Macaulay spoke slightingly; but he hoped that Sir Robert Peel would deal with the Irish Church " in a large manner—a manner worthy his high position and deserved eminence. I do hope that he at least, will not come down with a scrap of Hansard in one hand and a bit of an old journal in the other, and tell us what was claimed in 1787 or 1792. I do hope that he will grapple with the subject like a great states- man, and not palter with it like a puny politician." Mr. Macaulay declared Parliament and Government responsible for the miserable state of matters in Ireland ; and exhorted them to vote for Lord John Russell's motion, in token that the Irish Catholics need not relinquish all thoughts of protection from the wisdom and justice of an Imperial Parliament.

The Somerrott-GENERAL discussed the questions of law involved in the prosecution— He contended that there are certain acts of Parliament, such as the Act of Settlement and the Acts of Union between England, Scotland, and Ireland, which are intended to be permanent and unrepealed as long as the monarchy stands; and meetings of associations to repeal any of those acts are upon a different footing from meetings to repeal such statutes as the Corporation and Test Acts. He said thus much, because he bad seen placards recently issued justifying the meetings of the Repeal Association by a quota- tion from Lord John Russell's speech. He glanced at the organization and admission-cards of the Repeal Association, and at the oate of Ireland. " We find such cards distributed among those so disposed ; ne find meetings of hundreds of thousands, assembled under the direction of the Repeal Wardens mustering on the ground in such numbers as to render all discussion impossible ; and we find them addressed by leaders issuing threats and defiance, even of war, declaring that they were ready for war itself if the people of England breathed but the word. Is this a state of things for a Government to look calmly on? I do ask the House, whether the continuance of such a state of things in Ireland is consistent with the existence of any government or of any law ? Could such a state of things exist in any country calling itself civilized—can such a state of things exist where there is a government and a law, and yet be without the reach of any law ? I think that it is

ins-

possible." Surely, if we are not to adopt the full principle of impunity, we could not give impunity to these acts of the leader. If he violated the law— if this state of Ireland were produced by him—surely the Government would

i

be blamed if they had not put the law n force against him ? Sure he WES that parties ought not to point to Mr. O'Connell as being beyond the law and the power of the Government. Sir William Follett stated that the Law. officers of the Crown held themselves responsible for the indictment. It was framed on the common law of England, as expounded by successive Judges; Lord Campbell had preferred a similar indictment when be was Attorney- General, on more than one occasion ; and in Staffordshire, Sir William Follett had prosecuted prisoners to conviction under an exactly similar indictment. He went on to defend the striking of the Jury, much as it bad been before defended; declaring that instructions had been given that no Juryman should be struck off on account of being a Roman Catholic. He said that if this Jury, taken from the new panel of 717 names—the old panel, containing only 338, having been given up because it was not thought a fair trial could be had on it—if such a Jury could not be trusted for the trial of these parties, "then I say that no trial by jury in Ireland can take place; and if I rightly under- stand the argument of the right honourable gentleman, it is, that there cannot be any jury in Ireland. (Cheers.) That is in fact saying, that trial by jury is not suited to the condition of Ireland, and that it is not safe to trust her with such an institution." He called on the Opposition to adduce one tangible instance in which, either in the administration of justice or the distri- bution of patronage, Government bad acted with partiality; and he finished by expressing his confidence that the country would sympathize with Minis- ters in the endeavour to vindicate the supremacy of the law and redress the real grievances of Ireland.

The debate was adjourned, for the fifth time, about half-past twelve o'clock.

On Tuesday, the first speaker was Mr. HAWES ; who, supporting the motion generally, declared that the Dissenters would not now be led away by the " No-Popery " cry to perpetuate the religious bondage of the Roman Catholics of Ireland— If it were proposed to him to agree to an endowment of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland, and the proposition were shown to him, to be part of a large and comprehensive plan for securing the peace of Ireland,—if the proposi- tion under those circumstances were proved to him to be acceptable to the Irish people and he was assured that the effect of the comprehensive plan of which it should form a part would be to restore peace to Ireland,—then he would overcome any prejudices which he might entertain on the subject, and, as part of a general plan for that object, he would support it. (Cheers.) If, however, such an arrangement were proposed by itself, In a manner not acceptable to the Irish people, and brought forward with sentiments opposed to them, then he would at once reject it. He should for himself much prefer paying no religion in Ireland.

He did not regard Mr. O'Connell as having had a fair trial. He called to mind that Lord Holland, in terms the most emphatic, be might Fay prophetic, protested against the Union with Ireland : after adverting to the arguments which had keen used in support of the Union, Lord Holland said, he was of opinion that they ought to place more confidence in the adoption of good laws for Ireland, the removal of disabilities, and a reliance on the Irish people, than on any mere union of governments. Lord CLAUDE Ileptivrox vindicated the conduct of Government ; contrasting the prosperity and loyalty of Ulster, principally occupied by Tories, with the districts where Liberalism and Irish patriotism triumph—. If the Whigs were to obtain power, they would not tranquillize Ireland; for Mr. O'Connell said he would not trust them again, and that nothing short of an Irish Parliament would satisfy him. The proposal for an increased educa- tion-grant in Ireland was good, but it ought not to be confined to the National system ; and he wished that Government would legalize, and at the same time moderate, the exactions of the Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland.

The O'Corion DON defended the Irish from party attacks ; asserting their loyalty, and temperately reiterating charges against the Govern- ment— Ile considered the reasons given in explanation of the delay in issuing the Clontarf proclamation to be trifling; and the omission of Roman Catholics from the Jury-list required further explanation. What had been gained by the

prosecution ? Sir James Graham said that it bad established peace i : if t were meant.that there had been no breach of the law in Ireland since the verdict, why, there had been no breach of the law before the verdict; if it were meant that the mind of Ireland was not disturbed, he could tell them that the mind of Ireland was much disturbed at the present moment. He avowed his obliga• tion to Mr. O'Cont3ell for the advantages which he had procured for the Roman Catholics ; and he attributed the renewed agitation to Lord John Russell's doctrine of finality, on the one side, and to Sir James Graham's declaration that there could be no further concession, on the other ; the result of the agitation being, that Lord John and Sir James were now emulating each other in the declaration of their desire to improve the state of Ireland. The Solicitor. General had challenged the production of a single instance in which patronage had ben partially bestowed : to mention a case within his own knowledge, Mr. Fitzgibbon, at the head of the bar in Roscommon, was passed over in the appointment of Crown Solicitor, and a stranger from the North of Ireland was appointed to the place.

lie touched upon the measures proposed. He did not hope much from the appointment of Stipendiary Magistrates, because he had no confidence in the selection of officers by the Government. The grant for education was intended as a boon, and as such it ought to be received ; but means ought to be devised for improving the physical condition of the people, and agricultural education would be highly useful in the existing state of Ireland. Mr. More O'Ferrall undervalued the proposal to legalize the endowments and grants made to the Roman Catholic Church : for his own part, he thought it would be of consider- able service; it would at least be a check upon those who hold trust-money for charitable purposes, and are only bound by a moral obligation to its proper dis- tribution. He would have Roman Catholics enabled to purchase sites for chapels, the landlords being compelled to grant such sites, on the payment of the full value; and as every Protestant clergyman can register as an elector on the score of his glebe, he would have the Boman Catholic clergyman register on the score of his chapel. He regretted that in discussions upon Irish affairs in that House, party ap- peared to be every thing and Ireland nothing. Ireland was merely made an arena for contending parties; who, he feared, thought but as little about her in the heat of debate as the armies who contended at Waterloo did of that place. Be sincerely wished that men of all parties and creeds, Protestants and Catho. lies. Englishmen, Irishmen, and Seotchmen, could be brought to argue ques- tions of this kind calmly and earnestly, looking at each other as fellow-subjects, as brothers and as Christians, entitled alike to every civil right and blessing, and rivals only in a generous emulation to promote to the utmost in their power the happiness and interests of these portions of the empire. If they so set about the matter, be had no doubt that some course would be pointed out by which they might arrive at a good result. (Cheers.) Sir 'WALTER JAMES advocated a large conciliatory system of legisla- tion, administered by a firm Government, capable of keeping its own friends in order ; and, deprecating the introduction of the Poor-law into Ireland, he urged the extension of efficient medical relief.

Mr. EDWARD BULLER supported the motion ; especially attacking the method of attempting to put down the agitation, and also the Irish Church, as an injustice bordering on the ludicrous.

Mr. LASCELLES would vote against the motion, as conveying a spe- cific charge of misconduct against the Government, which could not he maintained ; but as to the future policy of Government, he hoped it would be conciliatory towards the Roman Catholics, and that the country would shortly witness the commencement of a series of reme- dial measures for that portion of the community— He thought it was quite impossible that the Government could remain as they were ; and he was also of opinion that every Protestant Member in that House should direct his attention to the subject of the revision of the whole Church Establishment of Ireland. His noble friend, in alluding to the oath taken by Roman Catholic Members of Parliament, seemed to Intimate that they were barred from taking any part in the discussion of the House respect- ing the Church Establishment. He would not attempt to put any construc- tion on that oath ; but he would ask, whether, since the passing of the Catholic Emancipation Act, they had seen the Catholic Members of that House banded together for any objects adverse or inimical to the Constitution? Their policy had been, on the contrary, directed to a remarkable degree in a different course; and latterly, so far from being able to carry any measures in that House, they had actually foregone the benefits that were to be derived from a discussion of public questions in Parliament, and had fallen back on the old system of agitation out of doors. He called upon Ministers to make a de- claration respecting their future course of policy.

Mr. GISRORNE applauded the kindly sentiments avowed by so many gentlemen on the Ministerial side ; and gave the credit to Sir James Graham which he claimed for impartial administration of justice and distribution of patronage in Ireland ; but having made those admissions, he humorously turned them to a party account— Mr. Shaw stated, that the Irish were a generous and confiding people, with whom a little justice and kindness would go a great way. When, then, they bad, on the one hand, a Government claiming credit for kindness, impartiality, and forbearance, and on the other hand a grateful and confiding people, he would ask, did they find in Ireland the natural results of those combinations ? Should they not expect, under such circumstances, to find the country in a state of peace and prosperity, and the inhabitants living with confidence in their rulers, and enjoying all the benefits which the country could afford from a beneficent Government ? If such were not the ease, they should surely regard the gentlemen opposite as most unfortunate personages. They should surely look upon them as good men suffering under adversity. If the Goverument were unsuccessful in preserving the peace of such a country as Ireland, the time must have clearly arrived when an inquiry ought to be made into the principles on which the Administration of that country was carried on. The Government attempts at conciliation were most unfortunate. They had no sooner entered office than they gave judicial appointments to two violent po- litical partisans—Mr. Sergeant Jackson and Mr. Lefroy. What would have been the opinion of the country as to the result if Mr. O'Connell had happened to be tried before either of those active debaters ? It was one of the calamities of Ministers that they could not get Roman Catholics to appoint to public offices. The Government were, no doubt, anxious to show the greatest fair- ness to the traversers; and Lord Stanley stated that it was, in consequence, decided that they should not be tried by a Common Jury, because the Crown could then have packed the Jury. But did it never occur to them to allow a Common Jury to be formed without packing ? or was it the fact, that there were parties in Ireland who would not consent to have any person tried for a political offence without having a packed Jury ? Another calamity of Govern- ment was, that their good intentions were accidentally frustrated—that while the Protestants were in the proportion of four to one to the Roman Catholics On the Special Jury list, the sheet which had been mislaid should have con- tained fifteen names, almost all of which, as the Recorder admitted, were Roman Catholics; that Mr. Kemmis should, after laying aside nine Roman Catholics out of the forty-eight names, have by accident struck off the remain- ing Catholic without knowing his religion, though the chances were as thirty- eight to one against his selecting him; and it was also a most unexpected mis- fortune, that on the trial the Lord Chief Justice should have made a better and a stronger speech against the traversers than either the Attorney-General or the Solicitor- General. In the measures proposed, Government were like the gentleman mentioned by Cromwell, who made his last will and testament, " wherein he set down a number of names of various men to whom he left monies, but there was no sum to divide at the latter end." Mr. Shaw had defended the Church Es- tablishment as the apple of his eye. To him he would say, " If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out." (Great laughter.) He did believe that establishment was intimately connected with all the disturbances in Ireland. He would pro- pose an address to her Majesty, recommending that on the death of any Bishop there should be a regiment withdrawn, and on the demise of a Dean a battalion removed from the troops in Ireland. (Great laughter.) Thus there would be a simultaneous decrease of the military and episcopal establishments in that country. (Cheers and laughter.) Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN asserted the tact, discretion, and wisdom with which Ministers had conducted affairs in Ireland; and controverted the positions of the Liberal Members ; at the same time urging a con- ciliatory policy in Ireland.

He ridiculed the plans for disposing of the Irish Established Church. All the gentlemen opposite who bad spoken on this subject, including the honourable Member for Edinburgh, had suggested extremely various and ingenious plans for dealing with the property of the Establishment. Some honourable Mem- bers were determined to transfer it wholly to the other side ; others said, "Cut it into three parts, and divide it equally." Some cried, " Pare it down I " others shooted, " Cut it up !" (Cheers and laughter.) It was the advice of :the ho- nourable Member who had last addressed them, that they should remove a regiment on the death of a Bishop and a battalion on that of a Dean. He would be content to limit the existence of the Church Establishment to the time when Members opposite should agree among themselves as to what should be done. He thought it absurd to rely upon declarations made by Roman Ca- tholic Bishops before the Emancipation Act. He considered it neither just nor right to exact oaths from a class; and still less reasonable to suppose that the assurances of one man could bind his successor. If they were intrusted with the swearing in of special constables, and decided that such and such per- sons were fit and proper to be intrusted in that office, they should tender them the oath without restriction ; but if they thought any class unfit for the office, they should not venture to tender them the oath at all. It would not be right to take a Roman Catholic and say, "I will swear you in, but on condition that you will not knock down a parson." (Laughter.) It would be better not to trust him with the staff at all. But it is said that Government had given the staff to the Irish " constables," with strict injunctions not to injure the parsons ; whereas they are likely to say, that it was the par- sons who kicked up the row. (Cheers and laughter.) Dissenting from Mr. Macaulay's view of church history, he did think that the House should be pm- pared to give a definite answer to some questions put. They were asked, had the Church accomplished its mission ; or was it not rather associated with the triumph of one race over another? Was it at all connected with the unhappi- ness or disturbances in Ireland? These were serious questions; and unless they were prepared to answer them satisfactorily, he declared that they could not face the present state of public feeling on the subject. He described some of the practical grievances in Ireland; especially the new Poor-law, and the difficulty of collecting the rates. Lord Normanby's opening of the prisons had inflicted a deep and lasting injury upon Ireland; and the Whigs themselves suffered for the short, theatrical, ridiculous, and ostentatious popularity of their Lord-Lieutenant. He could not but remark the great variety of opinions which had been offered by the other side of the House. The only one point on which honourable Members opposite were agreed was that of attempting, by every possible way, to "turn out the Tories": and if they did turn them out, who would supply their places? lie told the noble Lord opposite, it wasof no use trying to form a Whig Government. The Anti-Corn-law League was something, the Radicals were something; hut the Whigs, having been every thing and any thing, were now nothing. (Cheers and laughter from the Minis- terial side.) The League were a party, the Repealers were a party, and the Radicals were a party; but the Whigs, having coquetted with them all, and still supposing they possessed the charms of their younger days, were the object of that neglect which fell to the lot of other unfortunate creatures who survived their youth. (Laughter.) Mr. O'Connell told the Irish not to trust to the English Parliament : now he reechoed that sentiment. It was with nations as with individuals—you cannot force happiness upon them by acts of Parliament. It must be by every rank in the state, by every class in society, cooperating to teach and to practise order, subordination to the law, patient industry, and a high tone of public faith and feeling, that a nation could be made truly great and happy ; while insubordination, agitation, even though peaceful, and the summoning together of the people from their ordinary avocations, must tend to involve a nation still further in unhappiness and discontent.

Sir THOMAS WILDE made a very long speech, impugning the admi- nistration of Irish affairs, and the whole conduct of the trials.

It was said that the Repeal meetings in Ireland were calculated to create alarm: but Government might at any moment have interfered to stop them ; and in point of fact, the meetings did stop at the first proclamation. The delay to issue the proclamation for nine months was very like a trap for the unwary, who but for the delay never would have attended those meetings: a grave consideration, since the Judges had decided that the man who attended the last meeting might be held accountable for all that had been said and done at previous meetings. Sir Thomas minutely recapitulated the circumstances of the Clontarf proclamation. Ridiculing the excuse for the slowness with which it was issued after it had been determined upon—that its language must be nicely settled—he contended that it would have been easier to defend a coercion-bill than a stretching of the law dangerous to public liberty ; since a coercion-bill would have been professedly a temporary measure, establishing no precedent at all. Sir William Follett said that such an indictment had before been preferred: but it was regarded throughout Westminster Hall as a disgrace to the law ; and though the form had long been in use, it had never before been applied to such a prosecution. The case for prosecution was really, like that of Lord George Gordon, one of high treason. He took no exception to the law as laid down from the Bench ; but he contended that the proceedings were calculated to create great confusion in the minds of the Jury as to what the law really was, as it was the province of the Judge to point out the limits of lawful incitement. The question was, had the people of England, or had they not, the right to meet for the purpose of discussing grievances ? had they a right only to meet for the purpose of creating content or affection ? All that a bad or profli- gate Minister could want to destroy the liberty of the subject might be done by the law of the land ; as when Judge Jefferies said, alluding to some "dangerous and violent man," " it is a pity that he (Lord Keeper Guildford) does not consult me : I could do all be wants by the law, if he would consult me." It was laid down that a previous agreement needs not be proved to make out "conspiracy " ; but a belief of such previous agreement was necessary to establish the charge. The statement that when persons acted at a public meeting with one common intent, they were to be treated as "conspirators," was a perversion of the law. The "0. P." rioters might be convicted of con- spiracy from circumstances observed by those who witnessed the riot ; but it never coald be contended, that because people iii the pit of a theatre united in a common hiss, they must have come to hiss by previous agreement, sad be guilty' of conspiracy. The Jury in Mr. O'Connell'', cue did not understand the differ'. ence between persons at a public meetiog making violent speeches on their - own emotions, their being excited by what took place at that meeting, and their previous concert and agreement as to how they should act at the meeting. In that case the Jury were told that the acts of the parties need not be proved at all—the whole crime consisted in the agreement to meet together : and then they were referred back to the acts ; never understanding or supposing that it was necessary for them to come to a conclusion, not that those persons, as all persons attending public meetings upon grievances did meet, with one common purpose and for arriving at one common conclusion, but that they came there by previous agreement to effect certain acts and objects. Be asserted, then, that Mr. O'Connell had received no fair trial. He had heard some new constitutional doctrine in that House : Sir William Follett bad said that there were Acts of Parliament which must not be discussed ; and Lord Stanley, that the conduct of the Judges must not be arraigned, though the first duty of the House was to watch the administration of justice. Sir Thomas went on with much detail to censure the summing-up of Chief Justice Penne- father, as having neglected to distinguish the boundaries of legitimate agita- tion while it abounded in the language of hostile counsel. He strongly ani- madverted on the composition of the Jury. Ministers boasted that they had resorted to a Special Jury because had they tried by a Common Jury they might have put aside as many as they please: but they could not have pursued any such course. " You dared not do it !" exclaimed Sir Thomas Wilde. "it was because you dared not do it that you had a Special Jury. You could strike off your twelve Special Jurors in a closed room, but the Common Jury must have been chosen in open court. You could not have avoided having Roman Catholics on your Jury had you had a Common Jury. (Loud cheers from Mr. Shed and other Liberal Members.) You, the underlings, have ex- pressly and designedly sent Mr. O'Connell to the Jury to which he was sent, for the purpose of having him convicted." (Cheers.) The at tornies for the traversers put in an affidavit alleging, on their belief, that there had been a wilful and cor- rupt suppression of certain names, and therefore applying that the striking of the Special Jury might be suspended until the list should be set right ; an application which never would have been refused in Westminster Hall. Sir Thomas entered upon a very minute examination of affidavits and figures, to show that twenty-seven Roman Catholics had been omitted from the Jury-list ; a fact quite unexplained, and one which established that the traversers could not have had a fair trial. It was clear that the Crown-lawyers had a list suited to their purpose, and they determined to keep to it. Those who take advantage of a fraud, when once perpetrated, are as bad as those who commit it. Of the persons on the Jury, one was a Mr. Thompson, who, when Mr. O'Connell made a motion in the Town-Council on the subject of Repeal, seconded an amendment in favour of the Union. Closing with some general remarks, Sir 'Thomas repeated again and again, that Mr. O'Connell had not received a fair trial, and that the verdict against him was illegaL Mr. SHAW made some further explanation respecting the names omitted from the Jury-list; insisting that his previous account was correct— The number of omissions was but 24; consisting of 15 names in the lost sheet, 4 names accidentally omitted, and 5 accidentally inserted in the Com- mon Jury list. The agents for the traversers alleged 60 names to have been omitted : on comparing their lists with the books, he found the alleged omis- sions to consist of the following—the 24 already enumerated, 13 properly placed on the list, 12 that were entered on the Common Jury list, for which they were alone quali4ed ; 10 not entered at , all, and which ought not to have been en- tered; and one, the late Mr. Sauriu, of Stephen's Green, who was omitted in consequence of being dead.

The debate was adjourned at a quarter before three o'clock.

On Wednesday, the AT'fORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND continued the discussion ; making a defence of his conduct of the prosecution, in the shape of a careful narrative of the circumstances, and of the grounds on 'which he acted, in every branch of the case.

He began by describing the first act of the traversers' party, the posting of placards throughout Dublin denouncing Mr. Bond Hughes, the principal wit- ness for the prosecution, as a" spy " and " perjurer "; followed up by the ac- cusation of Mr. Hughes at the Dublin Police Court, by the application to the Judges for a mandamus to compel the Magistrates to entertain the charge, but not by any indictment of Mr. Hughes; whose candour and fairness were after- wards eulogized by Mr. O'Connell. Had they preferred a hill of indictment against him, it would have been ignored; which would not have answered their purpose. Mr. Smith elaborately explained the subsequent obstructions for the sake of delay. The bills of indictment against the eight traversers were found late on the afternoon of the 8th November : the traversers' attornies applied for eight copies of the indictment : the eight copies were ready. They asked for liberty to compare the eight copies with the original, hoping to detect some error : the eight copies were correct. He retraced the application for the four- days rule to plead; the serving of nine notices to set aside the rule; the application for the names of the witnesses, and for the " caption "; the eight pleas in abatement, and the arguments thereupon, to quash the indictment be- cause the Jury had not been sworn in open court ; the four-days rule to argue those pleas; his own instant demurrer ; the four-days rule to argue the de- murrer—which was sustained ; and the application to delay the case till next term, on the ground that the traversers required more time to prepare their defence, and that the Special Jury list of 1843 contained only 388 names, and hut 25 Roman Catholics. He consented to the delay on the second ground—because complaint was made of the Jury-list. The trial was fixed for the 15th January; but more delays were attempted : application was made further to postpone it to the 11th February, but unsuccessfully. Meanwhile, the revision of the Jury-list took place; and Mr. Pierce Mahony, an attorney for the traversers, issued notices calling upon every Re- pealer to take measures for placing his name on the Jury-list, and upon every Conservative to defend his name, or it would be struck off. Such was the desire for the "pure administration of justice "! The revision of the Jury- list having been acccornplished, a motion was made on the 12th January to quash the list ; but successfully opposed ; the Court of Queen's Bench pro- nouncing itself incompetent to interfere by mandamus with the Recorder's Court. Had the list been quashed, it would have interfered with all other cases to be tried by that Jury-list ; and as to the case in question, either it must have been postponed till the year 1845, or, under a provision of the Jury Act, failing the Jury-list of 1844, resort must have been had to the list of 1843—they must have gone back from the list of 717 names, containing 188 Roman Catholics, to one of 388 names, containing only 25 Roman Catholics. "Fraud" was alleged in the omission of names ; but the affidavits of the traversers' attornies did not say that the fraud was not committed by some one connected with themselves : Mr. Justice Perrin said that the omission was not free from suspicion; and, while the Crown-lawyers could hardly get a document of any sort from Mr. Macgrath, the Registrar, (who mislaid the list of 15 names,) the attornies for the traversers were supplied with information and had the run of his office. Mr. Smith repeated the explanation of the way in which the "eleven" Roman Catholics were struck from the Jury. One was at the time believed to bea Protestant. Two of the eleven were now said not to be Repealers; but one of the two was still believed to have signed the Tara requiai- tion. If more of them had not been Repeaters, the books of the Association COuld have proved the fact. But he could account for them all : one of the re-

maining nine persons had attended the meetings at Tara and Mullaghmast, and

the meeting at the Rotunda, after the day of the Clontarf meetiug; another had signed the requisition for the Mollaghmast meeting; another had signed an- other requisition ; another had attended the dinner at Longford, where the speech respecting Lord Beaumont was delivered ; another had attended the Mullaghmast Repeal banquet ; another bad signed a requisition after the pro- secution had commenced, the advertisement concluding with the words " Courage is best shown in the hour of danger, and friendship in the hour of persecution " ; another was a subscriber to the Repeal rent ; and two more were openly and avowedly Repeaters. Sir Thomas Wilde had said that Mr. Smith would not have "dared " to set aside Common Jurors; but he would have dared, if necessary ; just as Mr. Shell had dared to strike off 29 Protestants from a Jury in the prosecution of Mr. Pearce, a Police-Inspector, at Clonmel, when a boy had been killed in a riot. Mr. Smith justified the delay in prosecuting, until the case was ripe for convicting those who had derided the law—" old birds," as Mr. O'Connell said, " who were not to be caught by chaff." Sir Thomas Wilde had quarrelled with the form of a portion of the indictment: now in that part it was copied verbatim et literatirn from the indictment under which the Whig Government, Sir Thomas Wilde himself being Solicitor- General, prosecuted Vincent and Edwards. The charge, that the traversers had not been prosecuted for high treason, but for a minor offence, was a strange way of niaking out a stretch of the law ! Alluding to his personal quarrel with Mr. Fitzgibbon, Mr. Smith acknowledged his error and expressed his re- gret. At the time he believed a gross personal insult offered to him, th$ Court happened to adjourn, and in the heat of the moment he wrote a note, which never would have been written but for the adjournment. Be now believed that he had mistaken the intention of Mr. Fitzgibbon, on whom he cast no blame ; and instead of justifying what he had done, he only threw himself on the liberal allowance of the House. He had been accused of harsh language towards the Roman Catholics; a thing repugnant to his feelings, and impro- bable, as he was a staunch advocate for Catholic Emancipation : at the shop of Mr. Milliken, the Dublin bookseller, he had purchased a pamphlet containing a full report of the speech in question, which he had read to refresh his me- mory, and it contained nothing of the sort. Ile expressed much gratitude for the patience with which he bad been heard on both sides of the House : he Was not so much at home there as in court, but the indulgence which he had received would make him easier in future. [Much cheering followed the close of Mr. Smith's speech, and several Members clustered round him to shake hands.] When Mr. Smith ceased, there were several calls for Mr. Sheil. Mr. SHEIL, according to the Times, shook his head, and said, " No, 1 sha'n't ; no, I sha'n't." He crossed over to Mr. Smith, and borrowed a book con- taining the report of Pearce's trial ; which was lent, with a polite ex- change of bows. The debate was then adjourned, before twelve o'clock.

Before the resumption of the debate on Thursday, Sir ROBERT PEEL, being unfortunately in the position of one of the speakers who were to address the House, desired to come to some arrangement for bringing the discussion to a conclusion. Should it be that night ? (Opposition cries of " Tomorrow ! tomorrow ! " amid which Sir Robert Peel sat down, assenting.) The debate then proceeded ; but we can barely enumerate the speakers by whom for a long time it was carried on. Mr. MatrarcE O'CONNELL rebutted the charge in Mr. Smith's speech on Wednesday, that the traversers created vexatious delays; contending that the Crown- lawyers vexatiously refused the reasonable applications on the other side. Mr. GREGORY persisted that concessions to the Roman Catholics only embolden encroachment ; and imputed the evils of Ireland to the discontent of the Roman Catholic priesthood, agitation, the want of medical relief, middlemen, and the system of ejectments. Mr. BELLEW discussed the Church as the cardinal question of Ireland ; and thought that the State should equally patronize the three denominations in that country. Mr. LIDDELL, though a political op- ponent, defended his noble relative the Marquis of Normanby from the aspersions cast upon him by Mr. Stafford O'Brien, of "theatrical and ostentatious display ": his conduct was dignified without ostentation, affable without affectation ; and his kindness and charity can be attested by Ireland and Jamaica. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN explained, that he thought the wholesale release of prisoners intended for theatrical effect ; but meant nothing personally disrespectful. Mr. HUME discursively supported the motion, as substantially a vote of censure on Ministers— he almost wished he had moved an amendment to give it that form. Sir ROBERT PEEL suggested that it was not yet too late ; but Mr. HOME said he was "too old a bird to be caught that way." Mr. G. A. HABILL- TON (one of the Landlord and Tenant Commission) declared that the Commissioners were determined to fulfil their duty by probing the sub- ject of their inquiry to the bottom ; while they had taken every pre- caution to prevent "excitement," and undue expectations that they had authority to interfere between individuals ; and he expressed his hearty concurrence in Lord Stanley's view of Church matters. Mr. CALEB POWELL (one of the dismissed Repeal Magistrates) bore testimony to the peaceful conduct of the "monster" meetings, and censured the management of the trials. Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS argued, that the prosperity of Ireland had increased since the Union, and that the people had been treated with the greatest liberality ; he avowed his motto in respect to the Monarchy and Church to be, "No surrender under any circumstances " ; he lauded the efficiency and discipline of the troops and police stationed in the country ; and, diverging to the subject of Canada, he expressed gratification at seeing that Governor- General Metcalfe had succeeded in emancipating himself from the con- trol of a rebel faction.

Mr. SHEIL made a long and animated speech, mainly in reply to Mr. Smith, but finally expanding into a general review of the Ministerial positions.

First he set himself right with the House respecting the Clonmel case, in which he prosecuted Mr. Pearce, a Police-Inspector, for murder. The prisoner had a right to 20 challenges of the Jury, and he exercised his right by setting aside Roman Catholics. Mr. Shell desired to have a mixed Jury : he set aside 36 jurors, of whom 29 were Protestants; and the result was, that there were seven Catholics and five Protestants on the Jury. If the Catholics had a Ma- jority, be it remembered that the dissent of one juror would have caused an acquittal. To prove that he acted from no blood-hound instinct, Mr. Shell read extracts from his own speech at the trial, showing that he fulfilled Ins public duty in the most lenient manner, abstaining from any charge against the prisoner's character. Had Mr. Smith allowed but one Catholic to be upon the late Jury, he would have followed a more merciful and judicious course: and it might have been done. The Jury, however, was composed of twelve Protestants ;sight of whom had voted against Mr. O'Connell at elections; one, Mr. Thompson, had been a supporter of the Union in the Town-Council; two more, Mr. Faulkner and Mr. Croker, had been conspicuous advocates of

Protestant Ascendancy." Mr. O'Connell might have begun his speech to the Jury with the words of the unfortunate King Louis—" I look for judges, but I believe there are none but my accusers here." It bad been the invariable practice in Ireland to summon every member of the Council to consultations ; but at the Council which deliberated on the Clontarf proclamation, Mr. Blake, the late Chief Remembrancer, and Baron Brady, were not summoned. Mr. Blake, a Roman Catholic hut not a violent politician, was excluded. lie thought that if Mr. Blake had been present, he would have suggested on the Friday the propriety of at once issuing a brief proclamation to forbid the meeting, and posting it throughout the country ; thus avoiding the fearful risk which was incurred.

Mr. Sheil read the poem from the Nation, beginning " Who fears to speak of Ninety-eight," published on the 1st of April—one of a number of papers which were said to have " excited the minds of the people," and asked why such publications were allowed to go on, without any steps taken to punish the writers? Because Government, determined to prosecute for " conspiracy." connived at the publications and the meetings, until ninety-one meetings had been held. " Your object was to prosecute for a conspiracy ; and bow did you accomplish that object ? You allowed the papers to proceed in their career. You allowed them to run a race in exciting the popular passions. And then what did you do? You did not prosecute the authors themselves; you did not prftecute the men whose names were attached to some of these compositions. The.article entitled 4 The Duty of a Soldier,' which appeared in the Nation newspaper, bad the name of the author. He was suffered to write with perfect impunity. He was present at the trial ; he saw the defendants tried for the of- fence that he had committed; he returned to his own house in Waterford, and he still resides there in perfect safety. You gave evidence against Mr. O'Con- nell—you took no cognizance of the author of the article, but you gave that article in evidence against him. You give in evidence against Mr. O'Connell every article published in the Repeal newspapers in 1843. Was that a fair proceeding? Has there ever been a precedent in this country for such a course ? Has there ever been an instance like the present, where you indicted a man for a conspiracy, and joined with him three editors of newspapers, and gave every article in the newspapers evidence against them ? Wair there no other mode of proceeding ? Could not the publications have been stopped ? Could not the channels through which the sedition circulated have been dried up ? Therefore it is you are accused of having lain in wait." The traversers were charged with denouncing Mr. Bond Hughes as a per- jurer: but Mr. Smith, if not guilty of misrepresentation, bad made a gross omission in stating the case; be did not at all mention that Mr. Hughes, whose character was unknown in Dublin, had made a great mistake, and had described Mr. Barrett as present at two meetings in Dublin which be did not attend. Mr. Hughes afterwards accidentally discovered his mistake: he went to Mr. Kemmiles clerk, Mr. Rae, and told him of it; still uneasy, he went to Mr. Kemmis, the Crown Solicitor himself, and told him of it : did Mr. Kemmis say, "We must correct the informations "?—Nothing of the kind : the warrant was out against Mr. Barrett, and must be acted on. (Long cheering.) The omission of Mr. Kemmis to correct the informations, and of Mr. Smith to state that important fact, were equally astonishing. "I wonder did Kemmis mention it to the Attorney-General that Hughes bad made those statements to him ? I ask, (said Mr. Sheil, with much vehemence, directing his question to the Attorney-General for Ireland), did he, or did he not ? (Tremendous cheers from the Opposition.) Oh! last night you thought the Attorney-General had made a triumphant defence—(The rest of the sentence was drowned in a burst of cheering from the Ministerial benches, echoed from the Opposition.) Do you think this a proper part of that defence ? Do you think this a fit matter for exultation ? (Ministerial cheers.) You say you do ! Well, I cannot enter into such a. difficult subject as Tory ethics. You approve of these things ; you consider them tidings of great joy,—which I for one should be very loath to de- priee you of the full enjoyment of." (Renewed Opposition cheering.) He proceeded to comment on the conduct of the Crown counsel, in resisting the postponement of the trial until Mr. Justice Perrin had expressed astonish- ment that there should be only 25 Roman Catholics on the Jury-list of 1843; and to blame Mr. Shaw's absence from Dublin, which might have prevented the omission of - names in the revised list,—by the way denying the charge or insinuation against Mr. Macgrath, who has not been dismissed by Go- vernment; and he pointed out, that if, by the retention of the omitted names, the ballot had chanced to leave 13 Catholics in the reduced list, the number to be struck off by the Crown, 12, would have been exhausted, yet still leaving one Catholic on the Jury. The traversers had been deprived of their fair num- ber of tickets in that lottery. And Mr. Smith had omitted to state to the House, or had not dwelt upon the fact, that the traversers had challenged the array; a point on which the Crown should have joined issue, but evaded by the "demurrer" put in : Mr. Justice Perrin, the introducer of the act re- gulating that matter, and peculiarly well acquainted with the law, thought that the demurrer should have been overruled. Nor was it true that a new panel could not have been agreed to by consent; or the Crown might have resorted to the Common Jury list to find a Jury composed of Protestants and Catholics who were not Repealers. While on this part of the subject, Mr. Sheil assured Mr. Smith that there was no conspiracy among counsel to provoke him to a breach of temper ; but he reverted to the meeting in 1837, and insisted, on the authority of the Dublin Evening Mail, that Mr. Smith had said," Circum- stances have induced a belief that the Roman Catholics pay very little regard to the sanctity of an oath." The Emancipation Act, so the as it relates to the jury-box, has been repealed; and thejury-box is made the refuge for Protestant Ascendancy. Yet Lord Stanley is anxious for the impartial administration of justice !-.-probably, as Mr. Baring desired free trade, u in the abstract." Mr. Sheil revived the story of Lord De Grey's having received an address from the Dublin Protestant Ope-ative Conservative Association, reviling "Popery," as "a God-disowninb, Christ-blaspheming, and Bible-denying superstition "; desiring its total abolition ; and applauding the proclamation against the Clontarf meeting. For that address Lord De Grey returned " his warmest acknowledgments " ! Did Sir Robert Peel approve of that ? The question need not be repeated, for he knew that Sir Robert disapproved of it Mr. Shell assailed Lord Stanley, (the Secretary for the Colonies,) warning Kim how little his avowed sentiments towards Catholic Ireland would be re- lished in Catholic Canada. " I cannot help thinking that the right honourable Baronet at the head of the Government would have acted with prudence if he had told the noble Lord, that, as Ireland did not now belong to his department, it would perhaps be more discreet if he avoided touching upon the subject. 'At all events,' the right honourable Baronet might have continued, entreat you to take care, considering the state of Canada, and the peculiar susceptibi- lity of the Catholics of Canada, to avoid such topics.' (Cheers.) Perhaps the Prime Minister did give him some such warning ; and probably, like the Irish Attorney-General, he promised to put a restraint on himself and to ex- tend his Conservative habits to his temper. But once on his legs, all his good resolutions were forgotten, and he could not deny himself the luxury of offer- ing every Catholic in the House an affront, in the Pharisaical homily which he delivered on the oath taken by Catholics in Parliament. The noble Lord took up the oath ; he read it in italics, with an emphasis that would strike the ear as the type would strike the eye ; he read it as well as the Chief Justice read the speeches of Mr. O'Connell ; for be looked at us, and then he said (he did not mean any offence) that we ought to search our consciences, and consider the solemn obligations under which we were placed towards our country and our God. Suppose, as the noble Lord has given me a lecture about perjury, that I give him a lecture about political conversion. Avoid being betrayed into the positions into which political tergiversation sometimes lead us ; be- ware of playing the renegade for the sake of men with whom your political associate declared it would be unworthy of him to combine ; and remember, above all, the motto of your illustrious house= Sans changer.' (Cheers.) I cannot help thinking I have, in return for his lecture on perjurT, given him such a lecture on political apostacy, that he will not consider himself under very particular obligations." (Cheers and laughter.) He discussed the proposed Government measures, with questions hintiag difficulties and imperfections. But after all, the great question was the ques- tion of the two Churches in Ireland,—a Church with a congregation and with-

out a revenue, and a Church with a revenue and without a congregation. If they would not pull down one, would they build up the other? In 1825, Lord

Stanley, supported by Sir James Graham, proposed a measure providing for the Roman Catholic priests : it was supported by many in favour of maintaining the Catholic faith. What would Ministers do now ? " We are told you won't touch the Established Church. Why ? An honourable gentleman, the Re- corder of the city of Dublin, says it must not be touched because it is founded on Christian truth. May I be permitted to ask on which bank of the Tweed, the North or the South, Christian Protestant truth is to be found ? On the North bank of the Tweed, Christian Protestant truth is Calvinistic; it is Ar- minian on the South. • On the North bank, the honourable Member for Perth is its representative ; on the South, the honourable Member for Oxford. (Cheers.) On the North bank, it is habited in a black surplice and a white band ; and on the South, in a white surplice, and is mitred and crosiered. On the North, it is redolent of Geneva ; on the South it bears a strong family likeness to that celebrated Babylonisbi lady, to whom under the auspices of Dr. Posey, its filial affection is beginning to return. (Laughter and cheering.) On which side of the Tweed, I ask the Lord Advocate, on which side of the Tweed is the truth ? Or perhaps the right honourable Baronet (Sir James Graham,) as he is a Borderer, may tell me ? (Cheers and laughter.) If I shall be disposedto recant the errors which have now lasted for 1800 years, on which side of the Tweed, when in search of the truth, shall I discover it ? (Cheers.) But at all events, whichever is true, your Protestant Church in Ireland is not very successful in its propagation ; for while my religion, indigenous to the Mali mind, has struck its roots firmly, and has extended its leafy branches with vigour around, our religion, which you preserve in a magnificent conservatory, pines like a sickly exotic, while you endeavour to impart fresbnesa and vitality to it. (Cheers.) But let us put the truth of the question aside ; for in polities, that, after all, is not the main point. What have you done with the clergy- reserves of Canticle? They were reserved for the propagation of the Pro- testant religion. Before the rebellion in Canada, effort after effort was made in vain for the purpose of procuring a better application of the clergy-reserves. Till revolt—that fatal means by which statesmen are to be persuaded—every effort to apply the clergy-reserves in a more judicious manner was in vain : at last, it became necessary to make a change, and to depart from the provisions of an act of Parliament. The Archbishop of Canterbury said he deeply deplored the change ; the Bishop of London said the same. The only man who stood firm to principle and opposed the measure was the Bishop of Exeter : he objected to change because he saw that the Irish Papists would take ad- vantage of it. Be was right : the inference was irresistible. Show me the dis- tinction between the cases of Canada and Ireland."

Approaching the close of his speech, Mr. Shen spoke in the voice of warning. "These are perilous times. My conviction is that England, with her gigantic arm, will crush, as I trust in God she will, every insurrectionary movement in Ireland, though in that movement frantic Ireland may be aided by Catholic France. But at what a fearful cost of treasure, and of what is infinitely more valuable—human life ! Well might the Duke of Wellington well might the hero of a hundred fights. though accustomed to the contests of! fields of death, express his horror of civil war—a civil war in Ireland ! Should that day-.of atrocities take possession of the nation, every feeling of humanity would be violated : neither age nor sex would be secure ; on the one side you would have the pitch-cap and the lash, and the shrieks of Scullabogue on the other ; and when that deluge of blood subsided, it would be a sorry consolation to a British statesman, in the contemplation of the scene, to see the spires of your Esta- blishment still standing secure amidst the solitude and desolation with which they would be surrounded. You have adjured me upon my oath, which I have sworn upon the Gospel of God : I adjure you in the name of every precept con- tained in that Gospel, in the name of every obligation, Divine and human, as you are men and as you are Christians, to save your country from those evils to which I point but to avert them only ; and to remember, that if, in the spirit of partisanship, you permit Ireland to be engulfed in vain, the verdict, the ver- dict of posterity, will be against you; and you will not only be answerable 'to your country, but to that Judge in whose presence it will be more dreadful than all the horrors of civil war to appear." (Cheers.) But be was not without hope for Ireland—not without hope that it would cease to be the arena of factious contests : for, since his return to England, he had seen that the mass of the community were influenced by kindness to Ire- land; and he had heard such sentiments expressed in that House by the ad- herents of Government. Be finished with a prayer that those feelings might be appreciated by his countrymen ; and that, producing a national union, the greatness of the British empire might be invulnerable, and the power and the glory, and, above all, the liberties of Englishmen, might endure for ever. (Great cheering.)

The debate was adjourned at half-past twelve o'clock.

PROTECTION FOR BETTERS.

The order of the day for going into Committee on the Horse-racing Penalties Bill having been moved on Wednesday, Mr. BRIGHT moved an instruction to the Committee to extend its operation to all proceed- ings of common informers under any penal statute. Mr. Cartons sup- ported that motion at considerable length ; contending that no distinc- tion should be made between horse-racing and humbler sports, such as pitch-and-toss; and that all persons who might be threatened with ruin by the revival of some sleeping law should equally be protected. Mr. J. S. WORTLEY objected to endangering the bill by extending its objects. After a short but animated discussion, the amendment was withdrawn.

The House went into Committee. On the first clause, Viscount Howicii objected that the bill tended to encourage the system of bet- ting; and he proposed to restrict its operation to such betting as should have taken place before the 21st February 1844. Mr. J. S. WORTLEY said that the amendment was unnecessary, as the suspending operation of the bill itself was only temporary. Sir JAMES GRAHAM agreed in principle will Lord Hovrick; but considered that those persons who had already made bets, with the intention of "hedging hereafter" to save themselves from loss, would be as much taken by surprise from the operation of the amendment as those who bad been assailed on account of the original bets. After another discussion, Lord Howicz consented to alter the amendment so as to fix the 1st of June next ; and it was affirmed.

The preamble was mach altered. Mr. ROEBUCK objected to words recognizing ignorance of the law as a valid plea for W(101211'1174 a

dangerous precedent. Sir ROBERT PEEL concurred ; and, after some conversation, the omission of the words was carried, by 81 to 27. It was then proposed to omit the words declaring it expedient to dis- continue the actions because they were brought by common informers. Lord Joan RUSSELL objected, that the Legislature had always recog- nized common informers as a means of detecting offences ; and that, if the words were omitted, no reason would be alleged for the bill on the face of the document. The ArronnEr-GENzan. proposed to make the preamble run thus-

" Whereas several proceedings have been instituted at common law at the snit of informers or others than actual losers, and whereas no similar proceed- ings have been instituted at law for about one hundred years, it is expedient that they should be stayed." The suggestion was adopted ; the preamble was passed ; and the House resumed.

MISCELLANEOUS.

DEANERY OF DRODIORE. In the House of Lords, on Thursday, Lord MonxicanLE drew attention to some charges against Government in Irish Church matters. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners recommended that the Archdeaconry of Armagh should be divided into the two parishes composing it: but when the Archdeacon was made a Bishop, another was appointed, and a parish of 2,000 residents was still without a resident clergyman. The Deanery of Dromore contains six parishes, which were to have been severed; but Mr. Holt Waring, a violent Orange partisan, has been appointed to the Deanery ; which was a profitable benefice, though it had been said lately to be only ho- norary. He moved for papers. The Earl of RIPON replied. The question respecting the Archdeaconry of Armagh was settled last year. The Deanery of Dromore is an office without emolument; for a clause in the Church Tem- poralities Act had devoted its revenues to the augmentation of the several vicarages. But there are duties to be performed ; and, at the request of the Chapter, the dignity had been conferred on Mr. Iiolt Waring, the oldest bene- ficed clergyman of the diocese,—who had at least the merit of yielding prompt obedience to the expressed wish of Parliament respecting the Orange Societies. In the course of a short conversation, the Marquis of WESTMEATH remarked, that the name of Holt Waring went as well with a sinecure Deanery as that of Spring Rice with a pensioned Peerage : but he afterwards apologized for this breach of order and of courtesy. The motion was agreed to.

HYPOTHETICAL PROSECUTION OF THE ANTI-CORN-LAW LEAGUE. 011 Monday, Mr. Tnowsa BUNCOMBE, referring to the withdrawal of certain newspaper-proprietors from the Repeal Association, asked the Attorney-Gene- ral whether, if the matter published in any newspaper, the proprietor of which might happen to be a member of any association, should be open to prosecution, the whole of the members could be made responsible, if the matter were put in as evidence against that association? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, he had no doubt that the proprietors of the newspapers in question had exercised a sound discretion in retiring from the Repeal Association. (Cheers and laugh- ter.) As to the general question, he could not answer it unless he knew the objects of the association, the extent to which the editors were mixed up with it, what the articles were in reference to those objects, and what use was made of the articles. Mr. ELPHIISSTONE asked, whether every member of the Anti- Corn-law League was answerable for what might be published in the news- paper called The League? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL would recommend Mr. Elphiustone, if he wished for information as to the extent of his responsibility, to consult his ordinary professional legal adviser. (Cheers and laughter.) Mr. HIND= was not satisfied : was the Anti-Corn-law League a legal association, or not ? The ATTORNEY-GENERAL answered, that if the honourable Member had really any question which he wished to ask relative to himself, he would be very happy to answer it, and without a fee—(Cheers and laughter); but if he answered the question now, he would be occupying the public time in a way in which he did not think he should be justified in doing.

RAILWAYS. In the House of Commons, on Monday, Mr. GLADSTONE carried an instruction to the Select Committee on Railways, that they have power to consider of any arrangements advantageous to the public with regard to existing railway companies, to which, in the opinion of the Committee, Parliament might justly give its sanction.

JOINT-STOCK BANKS. On Monday, the following gentlemen were ap- pointed Members of the Commons Committee on Joint-stock Companies— Mr. Gladstone, Lord Granville Somerset, Mr. Labouchere, Sir George Grey, Sir Walter James, Colonel Thomas Wood, Mr. Milnes, Mr. Hawes, Sir William Clay, Mr. Oswald, Mr. Gibson Craig, Mr. Cripps, Mr. Godson, and Mr. Young.

Several NOTICES or MOTION have been deferred in the House of Commons, on account of the long debate; among them, Lord Palmerston's address to the Crown on the subject of the Slave-trade, postponed to the 5th March.

THE EttEigen OCCUPATION or Timm was the subject of questions in both Houses on Thursday night. In reply to Lord Baononam, who deplored the ill-judged act, the Earl of ABERDEEN said that the published accounts were correct; which he regretted. Replying to Sir GEORGE GREY, Sir ROBERT Pm, added to this information, he had no reason to believe that the French Admiral acted with the sanction and under the previous instructions of his Government.