Debates anti proteebings in parliament.

PRINCIPAL BUSINESS OP THE WEER.

HOUSE OF LORDS. Thursday, April 19. Questions and Statements on Foreign Po- licy—Adjourned at 6 b. 15m. Friday, April 20. Petitions and Questions—Adjourned at Sb. 20m.

[Time occupied In the two sittings, 1 b. 30 Tn.

since the beginning of the Session, 54 h. 27m.]

HODGE OF COMMON& Monday, April 16. Reform In OAF Colonies : Mr. Francis Scott's Motion negatived—Adjourned at midnight. Tuesday, April 17. Transfer of Land in Ireland : Mr. Sadleir's Motion—House counted out at 7 h. 45 in. Wedr.esulay, AprIl 18 ; morning sitting. Public Roads BBL debated, and withdrawn—Affirmation Bill, read a third time—Adjourned at 6 h. Thursday. April 19. Questions and State- ments on Foreign Policy—Rate-in-aid debate : adjourned—Affirmation Bill read a third time—Adjourned at 1 h. (Friday morning.) Friday, April 20. Public Expen- diture—Supply—Navy Estimates—Rate-in-aid Vote debated, and, after divisions, agreed to—Adjourned at 1 h. (Saturday morning.)

. [Time occupied in the live sittings, 35 h. 45 m.

since the beginning of the Session, 363h. 3 m.] IRISH RELIEF.

Before proceeding to the order of the day on Thursday, Viscount CAS- TLEREAGH raised a conversation respecting an interview which several Members had on Wednesday with Lord John Russell, by invitation; Lord John wishing to consult them on the subject of the rate-in-aid, and Mr. Herbert's alternative proposition of an income-tax. [The account of this interview, and of the explanations in Parliament which form its sequel, will be found at the end of our Parliamentary intelligence.] Mr. Dia- BAELI endeavoured to give expression to the universal surprise at Lord John's departure from constitutional forms, in holding that conference; but he was checked by the Speaker; and when he endeavoured to persevere, Lord John 'again invoked the Speaker's interposition.

The House then went into Committee "on the Poor-laws (Ireland) (Rate-in-aid) [Advance of Money] "; and Lord Jour/ RUSSELL moved the following resolution- " That the Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland be authorized to direct the advance, out of the Con- solidated Fund of the said United Kingdom, of any sum not exceeding 100,000/. for affording relief to certain distressed Poor-law Unions in Ireland; the same to be charged on any rate to be levied in each union in Ireland under any act to be passed in the present session of Parliament" Sir CHARLES WOOD supported the resolution. At much length, he de- scribed the continued destitution in several of the distressed unions,—Car- rick-on-Shannon, Ballinrobe, Bantry, Swineford, &c.; the impossibility of collecting the rates, of paying the contractors, of purchasing meal, or of providing the people with subsistence from week to week. Of the 50,0001. last granted, 38,0001. has been advanced to seventeen unions; the issue of 5,0001. more was authorized last week, but is not yet distributed; making in the whole about 43,0001. Should assistance from the Treasury cease, it would be utterly impossible for the destitute population to escape conse- quences that the House would shrink from contemplating.

Mr. HUME asked whether the Government intended to carry the pre- sent bill, or to adopt an income-tax; because, unless there was some secu- rity for the repayment, he was not inclined to vote for advances before the Rate-in-aid Bill should have received the Royal assent.

Lord Joint Russzu. explained the course he intended to follow. Under the former grant, 6,0001. remains; but that might be expended before the bill should receive the Royal assent; and he could not allow the interval to pass without affording relief to those who had hitherto received it at the rate of about 5,0001. a week. If either House of Parliament refused its assent to the bill, he should not proceed with further advances of money on account of the bill, but should ask the House to vote the amounts so advanced as a grant; and no amount would afterwards be issued.

Mr. HENRY HERBERT moved an amendment on Lord John's resolution, to leave out the words "distressed Poor-law Unions in Ireland," to the end, and substitute these words- " And, in consideration thereof, that an Income and Property tax be assessed on incomes and property in Ireland not liable to the Income and Property tax under the Act 11th and 12th Victoria, cap. 8." Mr. Herbert made a long speech in vindication of this proposal; repeat- ing many details of a kind already familiar to the reader. From the manifest disinclination of the House to continue the grants for Ireland, he argued that it %vas imperatively necessary that the Irish Members should waive the question of justice or policy, and assume the burden of taxation in order to the anving of life, He objected to the rate-in-aid, that it did not fulfil its professed purple of laying the burden on those who are capable of bearing it; it would fall upon the occupying tenants, already crushed to the earth. Indeed, the destitution has effected one of the most extraordinary revolutions of feeling ever witnessed in Ireland: instead of clinging to the land, men can scarcely be kept upon it. The precedents of English rates-in-aid—mere contributions from neighbouring parishes—ere far too paltry to be accepted as a warrant for the sweeping measure of Go. vernment Mr. Herbert mentioned a striking fact: during the last three years, the sum of 1,000,0001. has left the single county of Kerry, without any return-500,000/ for emigration, and 500,0001. for the purchase of food. Mr. Herbert bitterly contrasted Sir Robert Peel's comprehensive view of the subject with Lord John Russell's " Laisser faire, laisser passer" speeches, and the vacillating policy of Government—a fresh proposition every day. Sir Robert Peel's plan had excited great hope in Ireland, and a hope that this Government would not long retain their places. In the debate which succeeded, the two subjects formally before the House were discussed without any novelty of argument, and with no great novelty of illustrative facts. Mr. Jams O'Coxwmx, and the Irish Mot- hers who had supported the rate-in-aid on the ground of urgent necessity, now supported the proposed advance, and on the same ground resisted the amendment which obstructed it. The opponents of the rate-in-aid, in the main, supported the amendment In the course of such commentaries, Colonel RAWDON elicited some ironical cheers by declaring that " Govern- ment was not so much to blame for not having proposed comprehensive measures as that House. The Government must be carried on in accord- ance with the sense of the House of Commons. The Government was nothing more than the organ of the House." Mr. HORSMAN made a long speech, described by Sir Charles Wood as better suited to the debate on the second reading of the Rate-in-aid Bill; repeating many of the arguments against that measure. He cited the authority of the Poor-law officers in Ireland, to show that the rate-in-aid was utterly unfitted and inadequate to its purpose. He then went over the heads of Sir Robert Peel's proposition; contending that it ought to have been taken up in the broad and patriotic spirit of the suggester, in order to realize its great object Defending the measure,—citing as a precedent for it, grants to destitute sections of the population in Great Britain, such as the grants to the High- lands of Scotland,—Sir CHARLES WOOD glanced at some very cursory allusions which had been made to the conference of Irish Members with Lord John Russell; and he avowed that Ministers desired to accomplish the objects proposed in a manner the most agreeable to Irish Members. On that opening Mr. DISRAELI spoke. He resisted the rate-in-aid as a temporary expedient to meet &continued difficulty; and Sir Charles Wood's precedent he dismissed by reminding him that at the time of the grant to Scotland there was no Poor-law there. But he had no confidence in the scheme of an Irish rate-in-aid, because he saw that Government them- selves had no confidence in it. He sketched the history of the bill: the first proposition of Government, at the opening of the session, for a small grant to the distressed unions; the disappointment in the House, and the demand for specific measures; the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the Irish Poor-law—that is, to stave off the impatience; the continued feeling of disappointment in the House and country; Lord John Russell's coming down suddenly, in a precipitate, one might almost say an agitated manner, to make a proposition before that Committee—with the primary condition, however, that the Committee should not inquire; and then the *sue of the rate-in-aid measure with the authority of the Com- mittee thus obtained. Easter came, and with it the announcement that the Irish Members were invited to meet the Minister on a certain day; a most unconstitutional step. "it is very true that our constitution, in spirit, though not in letter, is a Par- liamentary constitution—a constitution governed by parties; and that very fact renders it necessary that the leading members of parties should from time to time communicate with those acting in concert with them in political matters. But there is no similarity between a Minister calling together his political friends in a private manner, and a Minister advertizing in the newspapers for a section of the House of Commons to meet him in his diningroom. Here is the dis- tinction. In the one case, a Minister asks his political friends to support him; but in the other case he seeks of those who are in many instances his opponents, counsel, and not support. I repeat, that such a proceeding on the part of a Minister is not constitutional. I think it is a shuffling off of responsibility, and is calculated to alarm the just confidence we ought to feel in men who as- honoured with the confidence of the Sovereign. I say there is something posi- tively degrading in a Minister going to 10.5 Members of the House of Commons and saying, Can you give me an idea? have you got a suggestion you can offer? do tell me how am I to govern Ireland; for if I do not know how to govern Ire- land, I can no longer govern England, and I will cease to be Prime Minister: (Laud laughter.) I say this is unconstitutional, and grossly unconstitutional.

"Some Members from Ireland want a Parliament of their own ; but, according to this system, they have a Cabinet of their own, and I believe the largest Call- net ever known. They consult together, they hold councils, and they frame their own measures. What Parliament in College Green could be more influential or better organized that all the Irish Members called together and locked up in the diningroom of the Prime Minister? (Laughter.) I repeat, it is unconstitu- tional, because it tampers with free discussion in this House. The Minister and the Members should come here and discuss affairs of public moment, and not shut themselves up behind screens and with blinds drawn down in the private chamber of the Minister.

"When we picture to ourselves the scene as it has descended tens from the highest authority, I can imagine nothing more ludicrous than a Prime Minister advertizing in the papers, before Parliament meets, for one-sixth of the House to come to his residence one morning, and see what God will send them ; his being ready then, with two high members of the Cabinet, a private secretary, and a reporter; and then sending through this reporter an accurate bulletin of all that had taken place to an evening paper, as the latest intelligence. (Cheers and laughter.) Why, really, this is quite in character with all which had occurred with respect to the Irish policy of the Government during the whole of this ses- sion. 'Infirm of purpose' has been stamped on every measure, if indeed we cen say we have had measures at all. It has been a series of hints, a policy of in- nuendoes; and it is ended by being absolutely an invitation from the Crovernmest to their opponents for suggestions. (Cheers and laughter.) Three months have gone, and here WO are tonight discussing what we did almost on the first night of the session, namely whether we shall grant to Ireland a vote of a small eam of money, without any one being certain that even the Poor-law, which we criticized on all aides freely but dispassionately, is to be remedied." Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought it hardly necessary to address the Com- mittee with respect to the answer just given to Sir Charles Wood, but ad- dressed himself to Mr. Disraeli's constitutional criticisms. Though it was perfectly competent for Mr. Disraeli to portray as he liked, in works of fiction, the state of political parties in England, and to invent events and occurrences, which might give great amusement to the public and interest to all those who read them—(Cheers and laughter)—yet it is not fair in him as a Member of the House of Commons, to make in a speech in Parliament a narrative to suit his own imaginative view of what might produce an effixt; it is not fair to make occurrences happen which never did happen, and so to shape the nar- rative that it may be very interesting, while the plain truth would give very little annseinent to the House. (Cheers.) His statement was, that Lord John had gone down to the Committee and proposed in a hurried and agitated manner a numb!: of resolutions. Now that was fiction—a pleasant representation, but not a representation of what in fact happened. Anything less like going down to the Committee in a hurried and agitated manner, than was his statement four or five days in advance of what he intended to do, could hardly be conceived. Mr. Disraeli also stated, that during the Easter recess, Lord John put an advertise- ment into the newspapers asking Irish Members to come to his diniogroom, and that having got them there and shut them up, he asked their counsel as to what should be done, and begged for advice as to what measures he should adopt for Ireland. That again was a very pleasant but very imaginary statement. Lord John gave his version of what happened. I wrote to every gentleman representing any Irish county or borough, and asked him to do ma the favour to meet me on a certain day; and when those gentlemen did meet me, what I pro- posed to them was, not to give me counsel with respect to what we should propose; but, an honourable Member representing an Irish county, the Member for Kerry, having given notice of a proposition, which he has this night brought forward very fairly, and in a spirit of patriotism not only Irish but Imperial, I asked them whether, as Parliament had decided that the urgent Irish distress should be re- lieved from extraordinary resources it was their intention or not to vote for the proposition of the honourable Member for Kerry; because if it were their opinion that the resources for the relief of the urgent Irish distress should be derived from the fund suggested by the honourable Member for Kerry, it would be far better, instead of the Government going down to the House to make this proposition, and then for another to be made which might be supported by a great majority of the Irish Members, that we should be informed beforehand, and then we should be ready to adopt the proposition of the honourable Member, and put that before the House instead of the Government proposition. (Cheers and counter-cheers.) . . . I did not think that in making this statement to the Irish Members, was doing anything unconstitutional, or anything inconsistent with my duty, or in the least degree lowering to the dignity which a Minister of the Crown ought to possess. On the contrary, as this tax was not to affect the whole of the United Kingdom, but only a portion I SW nothing inconsistent with my duty in endea- vouring to learn what were the opinions of those representing that part of the kingdom to which the tax in question was to apply; and whether they had a pre- ference for one proposition introduced by the Government, or for another, notice of which had been given by an honourable Member."

Lord John then briefly adverted to the immediate subject, and reiterated with earnestness his pressure for a decision by which the Government might one way or another be enabled to give effectual relief to the present great distress.

Colonel DUNNE moved the adjournment of the debate. Whereupon Lord Joule RUSSELL said, he thought it not too much to ask for a decision that night. Viscount CASTLEREAGH had pressed Mr. Herbert to withdraw his amendment, and. Mr. MONSELL was requesting him to persevere, when Colonel Dutisz rose to order, and called for a division on his motion. The division was taken; and the adjournment was negatived, by 206 to 77. But presently afterwards Lord Jost( RnasEtu agreed to an adjournment till Friday.

FREE TRANSFER OF LAND IN IRELAND.

In support of a motion "to call the attention of the House to the legal circumstances which unduly impede the sale of landed property in Ireland, and to those facilities which may be safely afforded for its free transfer," Mr. SADLEIR brought forward a great number of details from the maga- zine of facts which have been accumulated by the labourers in the general field of law-reform; indicating, as flagrant and crying evils, the informality of Irish assurances, and the obscurity of Irish testaments; the total absence of a registry of judgment debts; the complex, difficult, riskful, and after all incomplete forms of procedure in the Irish courts, and the confusion of Irish statutory law. These causes impose limits almost without check to the trans- fer of land in Ireland; and they hinder in every possible way the invest- ment of capital on mortgages of Irish estates. Supporting his statements by an array of facts taken from the history of particular estates and snits, Mr. Sadleir suggested his remedy for such a state of things, which is pro- ductive of much more mischief than any resulting from free trade, the ope- ration of the Poor-law, or even the failure of the potato itself. He could not see why two or three gentlemen, acting on a commission, and well acquainted with the subject, could not act together in such a manner as to over- come all the difficulties which now appeared to be insuperable as to those litigated Claims; and they would ascertain, m a short time, the amount and character of the encumbrances which now took years to investigate in the Master's Office, so as to arrrive at any conclusion as to the title of properties. When this was done, they might confer on the purchaser of these properties a primitive and perfect title to them, and that in the most simple form. They might make as clear a toile as if it had been for the first acre of land saved from the waters of the De- Inge. The purchaser would require no title-deeds ; for all that would be requisite would be a transfer from the Commissioners, duly registered by them. By the adoption of such a course, all the difficult questions which now occasion so much vexation and trouble in the Court of Chancery with regard to these estates would be got rid of. Any attempt to operate through the Conti of Chancery, or any that did not go to the constitution of some commission or board, the duty of Which should be to deal exFessly with the peculiar circumstances of the estates, to ascertain the nature of the title, and which should have the power of conferring a new and Parliamentary title—any proposition which did not go that length Would be found insufficient to cope with the exigency of the case, and wholly din.. Proportionate to the difficulties with which it is beset. Indeed, why not thus re- fonn the law? What practical objection could be urged against an alteration Which would enable the capitalist or the banker to advance money on the mort- gage of land in Ireland, and would confer upon him a power by which, in default of Payment, he should have a speedy and summary right of sale and purchase through the intervention of the sheriffs or some local officer? He also considered that beneficial results would follow if power were given to ?he Bank of Ireland to invest its surplus means in mortgages upon landed property lu that country.

An pendants to his general case, Mr. Sadleir threw out some strictures on the system of Irish tenures. That system exceeds in absurdity any

• in Europe; and he gave some instances of ludicrous and improper conditions and reservations in tenant agreements,—for instance, one of de-

livering to the landlord so much Parliament whisky as would make 172 glasses of strong whisky-punch. He condemned the system pursued to the present moment, despite late opportunities of change, by Trinity College Dublin, of always letting its vast estates to middlemen rather to the occu- pying tenant: and he paid a tribute of high praise to Lord Lansdowne for his humane and vigilant administration of his Irish estates. Nevertheless, he expressed a strong opinion that Lord Lansdowne held too much land in Ireland for an absentee proprietor.

Mr. POULETT SCROPE seconded the motion.

Sir JOHN ROMILLT declined to follow Mr. Sadleir in his review of every possible defect of the law of real property; upon the details of which the opinions of practical men are extremely various. He admitted the great evils of the judicial proceedings in the Irish Court of Chancery—evils not confined to Ireland; but the Government has lately exerted itself greatly to amend those evils. In acknowledging that the first part of the En- cumbered Estates Act has become a dead letter—had never come into operation at all—he called to mind that the provisions which had produced that result were forced upon him by the House, and were reluctantly as- sented to by him. A beneficial change has occurred in opinion, and the dis- position is now to lessen these forms—perhaps to an extent beyond what is advisable or necessary. He could not but think it a great mistake on the part of some who seemed to think or suppose it possible, in talking of the evils of Ireland as having now grown and concentrated to a head—the canker of three centuries or more—that these could be removed by one measure, as if by the touch of magic. It is im- possible to produce any such effect, and any attempts of the kind could only be attended with disappointment. But by a series of measures adapted to the cir- cumstances and assisting each other, a foundation might be laid for results which, considering the general attention that is now paid by many to the subject, would, he believed, not only far exceed the condition of things now existing in Ireland, but also that which was found at present in this country. The Poor-law is one of those laws that are tending greatly to advance the improvement of Ireland; for, in consequence of that law, there is now greater facility in removing the people from the land, and less indisposition on the part of the people themselves to give up their tenements and go to parts of the country where their labour could be remunerated. But he warned them, when their farms came to be cultivated in the same way and to an equal degree with farms in Scotland and in England, that they must not expect the amount of rent they now receive for the small patches in possession of the cottier tenants. He was firmly convinced that the measure which her Majesty's Government proposed to introduce would produce results gradually leading to a better state of things in that country; although he did not believe that all the beneficial results likely to ensue would be suddenly produced. The merits of that measure would be best discussed when it came properly before the House. Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL was glad that something was going to be done for Ireland; though he augured, from the general phrases of Sir John Romilly, that it would be but a small benefit.

At this point, on the motion of a Member, the House was counted; and only thirty-one Members being present, it was adjourned, before eight o'clock.

PUBLIC ROADS.

On the motion of Mr. CORNEWALL LEWIS, to read the Public Roads (No. 2) Bill a second time Mr. EDMUND DENISON moved as an amend- ment, that the bill be read a second. time that day six months. He ob- jected both to the principle of the bill and its details. Why should the present generation be made to pay off debts a fair proportion of which at least ought to fall on those who were to live in the next age? The plan of union-rating would impose insufficient checks on the surveyors, com- pared with the present plan of parish-rating: injustice would certainly be done to some parishes, and fraud against all would be rendered easy. He saw in the bill an attempt to introduce the thin end of a wedge for esta- blishing the principle of union-rating.

A number of Members followed Mr. Denison with objections to the bill. Sir Jonar PAsnearon regretted that he could not support the principle of uniting the consolidation of management with the payment of debts; and he saw no reason for extending the powers of the Guardian body to the management of roads—for excluding the specially chosen Trustees, who now manage, and substituting the management of men chiefly shopkeepers, not so conversant with the subject to be handed over to them: the result would be to throw the real work on the Surveyors, and so to foster job- bing and injustice. Mr. BANKES demanded to know why the Government had proposed the uniting of functions which Sir John Pakington con- demned, notwithstanding the direct recommendation of the Committee on the subject to the contrary.

Mr. CORNEWALL LEWIS went into a general defence of the bill; a bill not immediately connected with the executive duty of the Government, and therefore not properly termed a Government bill in the ordinary sense of the term,—though he did not wish to disclaim the responsibility of the measure. A general opinion was expressed last session that the measure then introduced was not comprehensive enough, on account of its not in- cluding the insolvent turnpike roads. It was in deference to that gene rally expressed opinion, and without any disrepect to the Committee, that the omitted branch was now inoluded. There is no clear distinction be- tween turnpike roads and highways; and consolidation ought to prevail on grounds of economy. Mr. Lewis then laid down and enforced the four points which alone would be affirmed by the second reading of the bill,—the combined ma- nagement of turnpike roads and highways; • the management of roads by a general county and subordinate district boards; the prospective ex- tinction of turnpike debts; and the abandonment of the past system of local legislation by means of temporary bills passed periodically in Par- liament, and founding a system of permanent and general road legis- lation. Sir ROBERT PEEL pressed the consideration of objections not sufficiently answered; enforcing them with instances which had been communicated to him. One of these, taken from a rural county, shows clearly the na- ture of his opposition. In 1834 this train was charged with a debt of 7,800L; that debt was now re- duced to 2,8001., and in six years the whole of it would be paid off. Their act would expire in 1861. Hitherto the parties had relied on the perfect good faith of Parliament, and had gone on paying off their debt in the hope. that they would reap the benefit, and at the end of six years from this time enjoy a reduction of tolls down to 1862. This they had done under the assurance of Parliament... But in the same county there were trusts that bad not the means of paying their debt; and he would ask on what principle of equity they could say to those who had paid their own debts, that a county board was to be placed over them which should have the power of raising the tolls within their limits, that their hopes of reducing the tolls were to be dissipated, and that the increase thus imposed would be for the benefit of others? 'Talk of a rate-in-aid! (Cheers and laughter.) This was a rate-in-aid with a vengeance for the county on which it was laid. To take these perfectly economical and successful trusts and make them responsible, not for the vicinage, but for some other distant district—to step over all the towns and villages and districts in the neighbourhood, and say that the tolls of these trusts must not be reduced but increased for the benefit of some perish in another district—that was a proposal to which there must be the most serious objection.

Sir Robert thought it better to keep the turnpike trusts and highways separate from the management of the poor.

It was no doubt of great importance to diminish the expense attending the highways; and if they were to include several districts in one, under the super- intendence of persons practically acquainted with roadmaking, he thought they might effect a great saving in the administration of those highways; bat he ob- jected to intrnsting their management to the Poor-law Guardians.

He would vote for the second reading, in order that the bill might go before a Select Committee; but he refused to be bound by Mr. Lewis's four conditions; and, notwithstanding any vote he might now give for the se- cond reading, he would hold himself at perfect liberty to vote against it on the third reading, unless justice were done in the Committee with respect to those particulars to which he had adverted.

Mr. HUME, Mr. SPOONER, Mr. AGLIONBT, and Mr. HENLEY, rose One after the other with suggestions that the bill had better be withdrawn; urged on grounds of greater or less hostility to its principle or details. Sir GEORGE GREY thought that, considering the many attempts made by Government in the last fourteen or fifteen years to deal with this sub- ject, and the manner in which those attempts had failed, it was not en- couraging to Government to undertake the task again. Gentlemen ex- pressed the great and general desire which exists for an alteration in the Jaw; but as soon as Government endeavours to-embody all the necessary details, everybody opposes the bill, and declared he 'Would rather have the law remain in its present state. Sir George would not avail himself of the suggestion to read the bill a second time pro forme, as such a step could not be taken without implying an assent to the principle of a combined management of highways and turnpike trusts under a county board. He reeherefere withdrew the bill; and in so doing, expressed his opinion that he could not see clearly how any other measure on the subject can be intro- duced.

The bill was therefore by leave withdrawn.

NAVIGATION-LAWS.

On the consideration of the Navigation Bill as amended, Captain HAR- RIS proposed to add a clause fixing a minimum number of apprentices to be carried by merchant-ships, in this proportion—for every ship of the bur- den of 80 tons and under 300 tons, one apprentice; under 600, two; thence upwards, three. The evidence of naval authorities concurs in at- testing the importance of apprenticeship as an auxiliary to manning the Royal Navy.

Mr. LA.BOITCHERE did not think apprenticeship very burdensome to the mercantile marine; but, in repealing the Navigation-laws, he could not re- fuse to remove that burden with others. Mr. HERRIES advised Captain Harris not to seek a division now, as on Monday he hoped to induce the House to reject the bill altogether.

Mr. Greensrotrz moved the following in lieu of clause 14—

" Provided always, and be it enacted, that it shall be lawful for her Majesty in CouncilL_ luxe an address, or joint address, as the case may be, from the Legis- lative Council, or Council and Assembly, or proper legislative authority, of any British possession, praying her Majesty to authorize the conveyance of goods and passengers from one part of such possession to another part of such possession in other than British ship; to declare, by order in Council, that such conveyance shall be authorized accordingly, in such terms and under such conditions as to her Majesty shall seem good; and be it enacted, that upon a like address from the proper legislative authority of any two or more Colonies, which her Majesty in Council shall declare to be neighbouring colonies for the purposes of this act, praying her Majesty to place the trade between such colonies upon the footing of a coasting trade, it shall be lawful for her Majesty, by order in Council, to declare that it shall be deemed and taken to be a coasting trade accordingly, for all in- tents and purposes: provided always that the privileges conferred by this act upon foreip ships shall not be diminished by any such order in Council, unless by regulations which shall be equally applicable to British ships." - Mr. LABOUCHERE objected to the first part of the clause, on the ground that it empowered the Colonial Legislatures to proceed by address, rather than by bill. Such a course might be attended with some inconvenience: but if Mr. Gladstone would consent to an alteration of the clause to meet this objection, he was willing to agree to its substitution for clause 14.

Mr. Ge.ensrotrE consented. Modified and curtailed as Mr. Labouchere desired, the clause was added to the amended bill..

THE BRITISH COLONIAL SYSTEM.

Mr. FRANCIS SCOTT made a long speech in support of his motion for a Select Committee to inquire into the political and financial relations be- tween Great Britain and her dependencies, with a view to reduce the charges on the British Treasury, and to enlarge the functions of the Co- lonial Legislatures.

England possesses between forty and fifty colonies' whose combined area cannot be less than forty or fifty times as great as that of the United King- dom. A third part of our export trade is Colonial: if, indeed, raw material and manufactured goods be excluded, our Colonial exports are fully one half of the whole. In 1770 our North American Colonial population, amounting to 3,000,000, cost us 64,700/. a year to govern: but at present the cost of governing the 5,000,000 people of our forty or fifty colonies is 5,000,0001. At home, 30,000,000 people are governed for 24,000,0001., which is at the rate of 16s. a head per annum: the cost in the Colonies is at the rate of 28s. a head per annum. Newfoundland now costs us more than all the eleven American Colonies cost in 1770. Lord Grey is a man the most highminded, and anxious to promote the true interests of the Colonies, of any existing; but he is overburdened by the weight of the Colonial Office, and cannot possibly fulfil the legal, judicial, political, naval, military, religious, and state duties, springing from such a field of administration. Lord Grey himself declared, in 1845, that it was impossible for any one hu- man being of whatsoever powers to administer adequately the complicated af- fairs of the British Colonies; and he counselled a wise return to our ancient policy of allowing them to govern themselves. But Lord Grey's views have changed since he has gained the power to carry them out to their fullest extent. At the foundation of most of our colonies no Colonial Minister or Colonial Office existed; and those colonies governed themselves cheaply and well under their own charters. In 1670 a Committee of Privy Council was appointed to conduct certain matters relating to the Colonies; and the same policy sprung up, of taxing the Colonies and altering their constitu- tions without their consent, which ultimately lost some of the most valu- able dependencies, and which seems still to be pursued by the Colonial de. partment. In a letter dated 12th April 1848, Lord Grey proposed, as a remedy to some evils, that certain duties of the Colonial Minister should devolve on the Privy Council: but the scheme would have afforded no real relief, as such matters only were to be submitted to the Council as the Minister chose; it would have been a mere device for shifting responsibility from the Minister to the Council,—a proceeding doubly injurious, inasmuch as the Council assigns no reasons for its decisions. The rulers of our Co. lonies have for years past been changed, on an average once every eighteen months; during the last four years the Principal Secretary and Under Se. cretary have been changed once a year; and in addition, the chief rider changed his own mind once every six weeks; so that the most important decisions seldom reached the end of their journey to the Colonies unrevoked, —a battledore and shuttlecock course of proceeding, which may be very good fun to the Colonial Office, but is anything but amusement to the un- fortunate colonists. The treatment of the land question in the Australian Colonies illustrates the suffering to individuals and the retardation to gene- ral prosperity, caused by the various plans adopted. It may now be are_ vanced that free institutions have been given to some colonies; hut, generally speaking, the constitutions are no more like the English constitu- tion than is the government of Turkey; and in reference to the North Ame- rican Colonies, the very grant of "responsible government" in Canada is calculated to promote dissatisfaction in the neighbouring province of Prince Edward Island, from which it is withheld, and which is still ruled at the will of a "family compact."

The principle of the Colonial Office is to impose extravagant expendi- ture. Ceylon, with a trade of 600,0001, is mulcted 408,0001., and a civil list is exacted of 236,000/. Mauritius, with a trade of 1,000,0001., is burdened to the amount of 300,000/. Jamaica, with a trade of 894,0001., a revenue of only 190,0001., and an adverse balance of 395,0004 is charged with an expenditure of 235,0001.

Emigration, as managed. by the Colonial Office, has been faulty and• extravagant. In 1848, 148,000 of the 248,000 who left our shores went to the foreign settlements of the United States; and our own emigrati n to Canada cost 1,000,000L, with a loss of 16,000 souls. The expenses of emigration are never audited, and the Parliamentary returns on it are

The guarding of the Colonies has been as objectionable as the governing of them; the troops in them being so small as to be of no service for de. fence.

In none of the Colonies is the parent constitution, in government or society, visible: the position of some is perfectly anomalous, and in all there are great evils to be corrected. If we longer delay justice, we shall live to see, if not the dismemberment, at least the alienation in heart and soul of the best portion of her Majesty's Colonial dominions.

Mr. HAWES opposed the motion; deeming that such an inquiry would be quite beyond the grasp of a Committee, and would not he likely to see an end within the Parliamentary life of any one present. With regard, however, to discussions on the subject, he entered on them willingly: in- deed, he was sorry that the House seemed to take less interest in the sub- ject than he could desire. [There were scarcely forty Members then pre- sent.] He would embrace the opportunity of placing before the House a knowledge of *bat our Colonial system is.

The forty-three independent governments of our Colonial empire may be classified under the heads of governments representative and responsible (using a popular name); governments representative but not responsible; and governments not representative, but administered by a Governor to- gether with a Council which sometimes admits unofficial and sometimes is confined to simply official members. The first system—the most perfect— exists already in Canada, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia; where the Executive Council is dependent on a majority of the House of Assembly. The colonies of Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland are preparing themselves for this system; and no opposition to its introduction will be offered by the Colonial Office: the only obstacle to its introduction at once, and the only condition on its introduction, is the acquirement of a certain amount of population and a certain amount of intelligence; for free insti- tutions may be prematurely and injuriously conferred on a colony. Where the responsible system of government is introduced, the Crown exercises its veto but rarely; generally in relation to points of trade and commerce only. The next system—the representative but not responsible form of government—prevails chiefly in the West Indies; from which the respons1! ble system is withheld only because its application would be impracticable at the present time, from the numerical preponderancy of the Negro race: but even there the further extension of the principle, wherever it is found proper, will meet no opposition from the Colonial Office. Even in these colonies the representative body has the power of the purse, and exercises entire control over its local taxation and expenditure. No instance of direct interference with this control has occurred of late years. In Trini- dad, the revenue having fallen below the expenditure, reductions were as- sented to. With regard to British Guiana, Lord Grey has stated his per- fect willingness to consent to the reduction of salaries though there is a distinction between the two cases; a civil list having been granted in Bri- tish Guiana for seven years, on the surrender by the Crown of considera- ble revenues. The representative bodies of the West Indian Colonies must not be considered altogether popular assemblies, but rather oligarchical bodies, the franchise there not being extensive. In fact, they often repre- sent only a few merchants and capitalists; as is notoriously the case in Guiana. But if so, it is right that the Crown should exercise a certain amount of control. In cases where there has long existed a dominant class on the one hand, and a race in a state of subjection on the other, it is use- ful, just, and necessary, that the Crown should be the arbitrator and mo- derator in all questions of difference. Such a power should be retained, 81 least until the mass of the population should have made an advance in the march of intelligence and in the knowledge of the principles of self-ge- vernment. There had beee, undoubtedly, many collisions between the Colonial Office and the Legislatures of the West India Colonies. It was not for him to say that the Colonies were always wrong, or that the Colo- nial Office was always right. The Colonial Office had a great duty im- posed upon it,—a duty which it could not shake from itself without aban- doning the protection it owed to the most defenceless portion of her Itik jesty's subjects in those colonies. New South Wales must be added to the West Indian Colonies are among the class of representative governmental for its Executive Council is an elected body. Among the class of non- representative colonies, South Australia, the Cape of Good Hope, New zealand, the Mauritius, and Ceylon' have Executive Councils into which non-official members are admitted. The remainder have Councils con- gsting entirely of official members: they are either military colonies or settlements partaking of the military character. Of our forty-three colonies, nineteen actually possess representative in- stitutions; eight others, including New Zealand, the Cape of Good Hope, nod the Australian Colonies, have had them conceded in principle, and are included in the bill which Mr. Hawes hopes shortly to lay on the table of the House; and sixteen are either not yet arrived at a condition to render the concession of such institutions wise or practicable, or are denied them on grounds of Imperial policy. The policy of the Colonial Office may be generally described as a policy involving the grant of political institutions and franchises upon every colony fit to receive them. In every instance in the numerous list of our representative colonies, the grant of free insti- tutions preceded rather than followed the time when the colony was fitted to receive it.

The general system of our Colonial government reflects honour and credit upon the country; but there have no doubt been causes of discontent. The Colonial Office has had to bear the brunt of discontents which have been originated by a policy dictated from without—dictated through the Parliament, by the public opinion of the country itself. In four leading in- stances this has been the case—those of slave-trade abolition, slave eman- cipation, free trade, and sale of waste lands. In each of these the Colonial Minister was only the organ and instrument for carrying out the policy adopted by the Parliament after long debate.

With respect to the financial bearing of the motion Mr. Hawes called to mind that large assistance had been granted to the Colonies from the Im- perial treasury. Up to 1831, Mauritius had received about 800,0001., and Ceylon upwards of 1,000,0001. These things must come to an end; and accordingly, the aim has been to assist the development of each colony's resources, so that it may the sooner take upon itself the full expenses of self-government. The time is certainly coming, though this is not the year for it, when the large civil expenses of many of the colonies must be seriously reviewed; but at present the salaries of most of the West Indian Governors are not a considerable burden upon the tax-payers of those co-

lonies. The naval and military expenditure is already a subject of inquiry, and in course of time those forces may be subjected to considerable reduc- tions; but Parliament must first provide adequate force in lieu. Much Las already been done in this direction by the establishment of local corps, and the despatching hence of pensioners with promises of land-grants to be holden on condition of military service.

Mr. Hawes repelled the imputation that the Colonial Office used its patronage for the benefit of the aristocracy: he believed in fact, that part of the unpopularity of the department was due to disappointment at dis- covering how few appointments are at the disposal of its head.

Some of the ablest of the Governors undoubtedly belong to the aristocracy ; and be hoped the time would never come when they would cease to select mem-

bers of the aristocracy for office when they happened to be men of ability. Ile

believed that few men could compete with Lord Elgin in the qualities of a good Governor. Few men had more distinguished themselves for moderation and wis- dom than Lord Harris. He thought also that he could find ample ground for saying that Lord Torrington had made an able Governor of Ceylon. (Laughter and cries of "Hear, hear!") He never liked to flinch from a difficulty. ("Hearr) When all the papers and despatches with reference to Ceylon had

been fairly and impartially considered, he believed it would be admitted that, as regarded the administration of local affairs, Lord Torrington had proved himself

to be a man of ability. (Cries of "Oh, oh!" and "Rear, hear!") He main- tained that this would be found to be the case; and he should be ready to defend the measures of Lord Torrington when the proper time arrived. ("Hear, hear!")

Lord Grey's appointments have been distinguished by disinterestedness and per- fect purity. lie had gone on the avowed principle of promoting able Governors whenever he found them ; and had in this respect limited the amount of his pa- tronage, because if a man distinguished himself in an inferior office, and was pro- moted to a higher, the inferior appointment alone was left to be conferred on new men.

Mr. Hawes stated some facts to refute the charge that emigration has been either neglected or mismanaged by the Colonial Office under Lord Grey. In 1846, not more than 200 persons went out to New South Wales, and 2,154 to South Australia. In 1847, these numbers were swelled re- spectively to 809 and 3,073. In 1848, twenty-three ships, containing 5,923 emigrants, went to South Australia; and filly ships, with 12,287 emigrants, to New South Wales. The number is still increasing. When Lord Grey took office, there were no available funds for emigration, and the land-fund was in debt 100,0001.; since that time 300,000L has been raised and ap- plied to emigration, and the fund is now amply sufficient to pay both the principal and interest due. So much for neglect: as to mismanagement, the emigrants had gone out in health, had arrived in health, and had found immediate employment. Mr. Hawes made a final allusion to Mr. Gladstone's recent inquiries con- cerning the proceedings of the Canadian Parliament on the indemnity ques- tion; asserting the full right of the House of Assembly to entertain and discuss that question, and of the Governor to send the act to this country, without interference from Members of the House of Commons.

Mr. GLADSTONE agreed with Mr. Hawes, that no good could arise from granting a Committee on a subject so extended and complex; and was in- deed convinced that the granting it would more serve than defeat any Corrupt interests which the Government might be presumed to have on the question. He also agreed with a good deal of what had fallen from Mr. Hawes in regard to the charges made against the Colonial Office and the Unpopularity which has attached to it, not on account of principles, Views, or notions of its own, but because it has been the organ of Parlia- ment and the country at large in reference to the questions of slavery, free trade, and waste lands. But he could not go far in his admiration of our Colonial system. Compared with that of any other European state, 1Kr• Hawes might have grounds for satisfaction; but a very broad line is to be drawn between our own modern and our own ancient policy: the policy of the last sixty or seventy years has been not only very much less bene- ficial, but more expensive in its character, than that under which our Ame-

rican Colonies were established and fostered. Important as is the question of a - growina and enormous money cost, there is a more important question

"I thoroughly thoroughly believe that a sound Colonial policy has no tendency to separate the Colonies from this country. Yet 1 do not think that the expenditure of large gime from the Imperial treasury tends to strengthen or perpetuate the connexion; and this, at least, I do not hesitate to say, that I think it is a mistake to propose the :maintenance of that connexion as the one and sole end which we ought to keep in view. What we ought to keep in view is, the work and the function which Providence has assigned to this country in laying the foundation of mighty states in different quarters of the world. What we ought to keep in view is, to cherish and foster those infant communities on principles that are sound and pure—on the principle of self-government; and if we do that, I am convinced that the political connexion between these states and the mother-country will subsist as long as it is good for either that it should subsist; and when it ceases, I hope that instead of the connexion being severed in the midst of bloodshed, as was the case with the United States, it may arise from the natural and acknowledged growth of these communities into states perfectly fitted for self-government and independ- ence, and that after the termination of the political connexion a community. of feeling will still subsist in a similarity of laws and institutions, and in a close union of affection. I do not hesitate to say that this would be infinitely more valuable than any political connexion with England." (Cheers.)

Mr. Gladstone briefly replied to the two allusions made by Mr. Hawes to Canada and Guiana. He protested, in the first case, against the asser- tion that the Members of the Imperial Parliament have no right to " inter- fere " in the discussion of the indemnity question.

Mr. HAWES—" Pending discussion." Mr. GLADSTONE--" Clearly. You cannot interfere afterwards, without re- pealing the act'

As to Guiana, it was true that Lord Grey had declared himself ready to concur in reductions as vacancies should happen; but Mr. Gladstone de- nied that Lord Grey had redeemed his pledge. Mr. Hawes had shown, what certainly disappointed their sanguine hopes, but still had great truth in it, that there are circumstances attaching to the social state of a large portion of the Colonies which limit and fetter our ex- periments in the application of representative principles. Where a domi- nant race has long enjoyed ascendancy over a population inferior in social condition but larger in numbers, it is necessary for the central government to retain control, and to exercise a jealous vigilance. There are also colo- nies where the Imperial interests may, from military or naval considera- tions, be deemed paramount; and some others where the society is too small to be self-sustaining by the resources of self-taxation. But as to the class of colonies which are self-supporting and have no dominant race—as Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island—he could not understand why there should be any exception to the extension of free institutions to them. Why should a large population be necessary to work free institutions?

"Be it recollected that I set aside the military pasts; I set aside the colonies where there is a dominant race; and I set aside the colonies which are dependent upon our annual votes. But I do not understand why our other colonies, and es- pecially our Anglo-Saxon Colonies, should not be ready for the possession, in their own way, of the principle of self-government—why they should not be ready for the possession of free institutions, whether their numbers be large or small. The question may apppear to be a small one, but I hold it to be of the utmost extent; because I believe it to possess an elastic force, which, though small at present, will expand with our future necessities. (Cheers.) I believe that if this prin- ciple had been acted upon some time ago, we should have escaped from many of the difficulties which now environ us as the consequence of former errors. I confess—though I am unwilling to refer to matters which cannot now be discussed in a satisfactory manner--I do not hesitate to say that it is this which leads DM to deplore the course taken by Lord Grey with respect to Vancouver's Island. ("Hear, hear!") There, there was no dominant race, no military post, no in- convenient proximity to other colonies; it presented the fairest field which any Minister has had for generations, perhaps for a century, to found a truly free colony; and that opportunity has been wantonly and most miserably sacrificed. I trust we shall go Into this question in large detail at an early opportunity; because it is impossible that a question of such large importance as this should, fail to attract the deliberate notice of Parliament. But I hold that we must dis- embarrass ourselves of the fallacious notion that a colony is to be reared and fostered by a Government in Downing Street,—a Government which I do not re- spect one whit less, but rather more, than any other department of Government which has its seat in this country ; we must get rid of the fallacious notion —for if it is a.fallacy at all it must be a dangerous one—that we must raise a colony to the extent of a population of forty or fifty thousand, like Newfound- land, before it is fit for free institutions. That is the point on which the old Colonial policy differed from the new." He attributed but little importance to specific resolutions with respect to the Colonies governing themselves, inasmuch as there must be so many qualifying circumstances that those who assert the principles embodied in such resolutions, and who hug themselves on the felicity of having asserted them, would be much disappointed at the tardiness of their being brought into practice. "When par- ticular cases relating to our Colonies come before us, let us apply to them prin- ciples which are in themselves firm sound, and of permanent duration; and by following such a MUM; we shall best succeed in placing our Colonial policy on a footing worthy of this great country and the character of this enlightened people:" (Cheers.) Mr. MANGLES praised the honesty of endeavour and the industry of re- cent Colonial Ministers; among whom, Lord Grey had done all that per- sonal ability could do: but he reiterated the condemnation of the system, and offered a suggestion— The Indian and Colonial systems were so different that both could not possibly be the best. But why should the system applied to India not be applied mutates mutandis to the Colonies? As Spain had a Council of the Indies, why not have a Council of the Colonies, consisting of retired Governors, who should assist the Secretary of State in the administration?

Mr. Homo, who had seconded the motion, made a speech in support of it, at this stage; strongly urging Mr. Scott to persevere in pressing it to a division. There ought to be an inquiry into every colony, such as was now pending on Guiana and Ceylon. Mr. Hume disapproved of Mr. Mangles's suggestion to govern the Colonies by a body like the India Board. Mr. ANSTEY supported the motion.

He believed it was impossible to correct the abuses of the present system, un- less they did, as Lord Stanley had done in the case of Canada, where they had on the spot a Governor in whom they could confide—not interfere with him, by remonstrance or in any other manner. A few days before Lord 3fetcalfe that lamented statesman told him, that during the whole time he was in Canada he was not interfered with by the authorities in Downing Street ; and that was the solitary instance of success in our Colonial administration during the last thirty years.

Sir WiLtiaar MOLESWORTH dealt with the two questions, "Should there be an inquiry?" and "By whom should the inquiry be made?" The honourable gentleman near him (Mr. Hawes) said there was no case for ioquiry. He maintained that the Colonial policy of the British empire was per- fect; that nothing could be better than the conduct of the Colonial Office; and nothing more admirable than the appointments made by it. Such might be the opinions of honourable gentlemen connected with the Colonial Office; but there was a growing conviction, in the House and the country, that there were grave errors and defects in the Colonial policy of the British empire; there was a grow.

ing distrust of the Colonial Office, and a growing feeling that not overmuch re-

liance was to be placed in its statements ("Bear, hear! Now, which of these two sets of opinions was correct? Rightly to answer the question, it ap- aesred him to be sufficient to count over the most important events which had liappenesi in our most important colonies within the last ten or fteen years. In our North American Colonies, there had been a war of races—two rebellions, one in Upper the other in Lower Canada, both of them suppressed at great cost; there had been, he knew not how many constitutions suspended; and at the pre- sent moment, the war of races seemed to be on the eve of renewal. In the West India Colonies, there had been universal ruin of the planters: the constitu- tion of Jamaica had been proposed to be abolished: in two colonies, British Gui- ana and Jamaica, the supplies were stopped: in St. Lucia there had been insur- rectionary riots ; and all over the Antilles there brooded a discontent bordering on despair. In South Africa, there had been an interminable series of border feuds between the settlers and the savages, and two wars attended with lavish expenditure and discreditable results: three times the Boors had revolted, intent OR escaping from the hated dominion of Britain; and, lastly, we had made the ac- quisition of a vast desert and useless empire, inhabited by wild beasts or wilder sa- vages. ("Hear, hear! ") In Ceylon, there had been abuse of patronage, official inaptitude, lavish expenditure financial embarrassments, riots, and martial law, military executions and punishments which were a disgrace to England. ("Hear, -hear, hear! ") In Australasia, we had planted communities more thoroughly vicious than any of which mention was made in ancient or modern history; while in New Zealand they had suffered from imbecile Governors and discreditable wars with the natives. Some of these events had occurred since this time last year. Such were the apparent renewal of the war of races in Canada the stoppage of supplies in Guiana and Jamaica, the rebellion at the Cape of Good Hope, and the melancholy events in Ceylon. During the more extended period to which be had alluded, we could not have laid out less than 60,000,000/. on our Colonies. For that sum three millions of emigrants could have been conveyed to Australia' and nearly double the number to the Canadas. But what was the state of facts? There were not above 1,600,000 labourers of British extraction in all our Colo- nies; and our export trade with our dependencies did not much exceed that of the United States with those same sossessions. Therefore it was evident, that the most striking consequences and results of the present Colonial policy had been' war, rebellion, recurrent distress, dissatisfaction, and extravagant expenditure. If, then, it were lair to judge of a tree by its fruits, there must be some grave errors in the Colonial system of the British empire. Thus the case for inquiry was established. But Sir William doubted whether a Committee of the House of Com- mons could well perform the duty of inquiry.

Without an intimate knowledge of the affairs of our Colonies, he doubted whether a Committee up-stairs could conduct such an investigation with much advantage. To insure the proper conduct of such an inquiry, he was of opinion that a Commission, consisting of not more than five persons, who bad care- fully considered Colonial questions, should be appointed. The recommendations of such a Commission might be made the basis of sound reforms in our Colonial system. But, should the House agree to the motion before it, he felt persuaded that the Committee nominated would soon discover that the best course which could be taken would be the appointment of a Commission, such as he had suggested. ("Hear, hear ! ") Major BLACKALL advocated the treating of our Colonies as our own children, not as step-children: we should attach tilt m to us by the ties of interest.

The House divided; and negatived Mr. Scott's motion, by 81 to 34.

FOREIGN Potiev.

On Thursday, questions concerning the actual state of Foreign affairs were asked in both Houses.

In reply to Lord BEAUMONT, the Marquis of LANSDOWNE stated that an ex- pedition had been despatched by France to the coast of Italy: it had not been suggested by this country, bat he could not say that this Government disapproved of it.

In reply to Mr. DISRAELI, who inquired concerning three mediations, now con- verted into three blockades, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that the Sicilian papers should be produced forthwith; but pending negotiations prevent the production of the Schleswig papers. In reply to Mr. HUME, Viscount PALMERSTON explained, that a letter from the Danish Minister, enclosing a proposition to be submitted to the Prussian Minis- ter, was received by Lord Palmerston on the 26th of March: "ii was not made in - the usual official way, and was by accident mislaid; and it was not until Thursday the 29th, instead of Tuesday the 27th, that I was able to communicate the contents to the Prussian Minister." But as the proposal was quite inadmissible, the result was not affected by its transmission on Thursday instead of Tuesday.

ABOLITION Or OATHS.

Mr. PAGE WOOD having moved that the Affirmation Bill be read a third time, Mr. Goueneraer renewed his opposition to this bill; urging ob- jections which he had been prevented by illness from advancing at the stage of the second reading. • The act provided that any person applying to a Justice of the Peace with one credible witness to testify that such person was of good character, should obtain a cm Melte, by virtue of which he would henceforth be released from the obliga- tion of taking an oath. Ile at first understood this to be an exemption founded on a religious scruple; but now it appeared to be one which was to be decided by merely the question of good character; so that any man having one witness to bear testimony to his being a person of good character might, on paying half-a- crown be entitled to be heard, whether in a court of justice or elsewhere, on his affirmation, without the solemn sanction of an oath. Many men would not hesi- tate to affirm facts to the truth of which they would hesitate to be sworn. A le- gal penalty, teerefore, was a most inadequate protection against the violation of truth, even when it could be inflicted; but the difficulty of proving a false affir- mation would reduce the law imposing the penalty to a piece of waste paper. Mr. WOOD sketched the history of the gradual relaxation which our law has undergone on this subject; beginning in the time of Charles the Second in favour of the Quakers, and, attaining its climax in the first year of her present Majesty's reign in favour of the Separatists. This last sect had at that time only three congregations in England, four in Scotland, and six- teen in Ireland; and a congregation might consist of but three persons. So that the last alteration had been made in favour of a sect which might not have exceeded forty-three persons in the number of its members. The cases of individual hardship have multiplied of late. One llostade' a con- scientious and respectable man, was imprisoned five years for refusing to take an oath, and was at last set free only by an act passed for his special case. A Miss Ashley had been imprisoned, and only escaped by the agreement of the litigants who required her oath, and her payment of their costs, 1501.--equal to her whole income for the year. The bill has the special sanction of Lord Chief Justice Denman. Its machinery has been specially contrived to prevent cases of excuses got up on the spur of the moment.

Mr. HENLEY added a special ground of opposition—

Unless he misunderstood the principle of the bill, there was no reason why the honourable Member for the City of London (Baron Rothschild) might not, under

its provisions, go before a Magistrate and say that he had conscientious sei; plea against the taking of an oath, and obtain relief from doing so in any cue thereafter.

Mr. Woon--" The declaration must be made on the tree faith of a Christian." On a division, the third reading was carried, by 70 to 46.

The question that the bill do pass was than put. But Captain Hawes spoke in opposition till six o'clock arrived; whereupon the House adjourned without a decision.

THE IRISH MEMBERS AND LORD JOHN RUSSELL.

A late edition of the Globe on Wednesday evening contained what was styled an " authorized report " of proceedings at an interview between Lord John Russell and a deputation of Irish Members of Parliament, " atNo. 10, Downing Street," on Wednesday morning. Fifty-four Members, of all parties, attended in pursuance of an invitation from Lord John Ituesee, addressed to the Irish Members generally. With Lord John were the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Sir George Grey. A short-hand writer was present.

Before the business of the interview commenced, Mr. John O'Comiell drew Lord Jelin Russell's attention to a report in the Times newspaper, of an interview between the Irish Members and Lord Clarendon, and to as official or authoritative correction which had subsequently appeared.

" As to the details of what occurred at that deputation, I will say nothing; because, though I was one who signed the memorial, I was not one of the eve. talon. It certainly, however, appears to he rather an extraordinary assumption, to say the least of it, that a member of the Executive should take upon himself to lecture members of the Legislature—Representatives of the People—in the discharge of what they consider to be their public duty. Bat, as I said, I shall say nothing upon that; but I come to the official statement. It is stated that Lord Clarendon intimated his intention to return an answer to the deputation in writing. He made no such intimation, nor was there any question raised as to his doing so. But we have reason to believe that this is not the first time tbat garbled reports of official interviews with Irish deputations have been famished to the newspapers; and we strongly recommend all official persons, for their own protection, as well as for the information of the .public, never to undergo those ordeals except in the presence of a short-hand writer. I do not know, my Lord, in what way the nobleman to whom I allude is justified in this, which purports to be an official statement, in offering what is really an insult to members of the Legislature ; and what I have to ask of your Lordship is, do you approve of sech an imputation being cast upon us ?"

Lord John Russell declined to give any answer or explanation respeee ing interviews with another member of the Government: he maid only answer for himself and his own experience of deputations.

"I certainly thought it necessary, in a late deputation, to ask a gentleman, a Member of Parliament, who was present, to show me any account which he thought could be given to a newspaper, that I might see that it was correct be- fore it was sent to the newspaper. Be was good enough to do so; and his ac- count was very correct, except that there was an omission of some particulars which I thought were of importance. I requested him to insert them, which he readily allowed had been omitted; and the report was afterwards inserted in the newspaper. I must say, iii regard to deputations, not Irish deputations espe- cially, but deputations English, Scotch, and Irish, that I think it is very much the habit of those who come to the Minister with deputations, to make a report of the proceedings, in which all the arguments which seem to them forcible, and which occur to them to urge, are generally very well represented, but the answer of the Minister is not in general so fully given. I have known, in the case of deputations from Birmingham, from Liverpool, and other places, reports to be given of what passed, in which the Minister is made either to say, or to appear to acknowledge, that be is completely overwhelmedby the arguments; when cer- tainly the impression upon my mind has been totally different. I have therefore thought, with regard to deptetations which are composed of any considerable number, it inadvisable to have a correct report of the proceedings."

Mr. Tennant mentioned another instance of misrepresentation.

"On one occasion, when I had the honour of being a member of a deputation to your Lordship, a report appeared in the newspapers a day or two afterwards, which entirely misrepresented both the speakers and that which they said. It represented the deputation as making use of language which I have no hesitation hi saying was offensive, and was entirely unfounded in fact. I then communicated with every member of the deputation and with every gentleman in the room ex- cept your Lordship and another gentleman; and they entirely denied all know- ledge of any communication to the paper whatever."

Lord John Russell—"In that instance, I think lhad real reason to complain of the report."

Viscount Castlereagh believed that people are now getting pretty well aware of the onesided nature of reports in the Times with respect to Irish matters.

Mr. O'Flaherty was ready at any time to substantiate a great part Of what occurred at the deputation with Lord Clarendon. Lord John Russell now turned to the business of the meeting.

He reminded the deputation that in the early part of the session, the Chan- cellor of the Exchequer moved for a grant of 50,0001. to relieve distress in certaia parts of Ireland; but it was objected, by Members of different political parties, that this relief was no longer occasional, but continued from year to year; and that some coarse ought to be adopted with respect to the future. Some Members, especially a gentleman who is a leader on the opposite side of the House, called upon Ministers to state that that was to be the last grant; a pledge that Lord John Russell declined to give. "However, the opinion, I think you will allow, in the House of Commons, generally was, that there ought to be some course adopted by which, grants having been made for several years, and the prospect being eery uncertain as to the sufficiency of local funds for the next year and the year after, there should be some contribution made from Ireland more than was made in the last year for the purpose of the relief of Irish distress. Now, there were two ways by which this could he effected. The one was, putting on a special tax or

I a special rate ou eland for the occasion, ma i

king t limited in point of time, limited in point of amount, and leaving the country at the end of that time with the immediate want supplied, and without at all raising a precedent that should be injurious for the future. On the other hand, it was said that such a Fee& dent would be most injurious; that it would be a separation of Ireland, which was contrary to the principles of the DRIOD; that the way in which the rate was proposed to be raised would make it press more severely upon one class of per- sons, and upon one kind of property, than upon others; and that the better course was to consider whether there were any taxes which were paid in Great Britain, and were not paid in Ireland, to which Ireland might be fairly called on 0 contribute ; and then hi the contemplation of such taxes, to make such grants as were required in peculiar exigencies, whether they occurred in the West of he' land, or whetber-they occurred in the Highlands of Scotland, or in any other part of the Uuited Kingdom, from the Imperial Exchequer. The proposal which the Government made was founded upon the first of these two views; but upon the proposition being made, an amendment was moved by Major Blacken, that there should be a property-tax instead of that which was proposed. There was a verf considerable division. The amendment was supported by a great number of Irish Members who were in favour of that view ; while at the same time I think many explained afterwards, that what they wished to infer was, that they were against the rate-in-aid, and not in favour of a property-tax." Major Blackall—" Might I interrupt your Lordship? The question was, whe- tter a rate-in-aid should be fixed upon all descriptions of property above a cer- tain amount." Lord John Russell—" I quite admit that it might be considered that it was not in favour of an income-tax; but in subsequent debates that view of the question has been very much pressed." Another suggestion was, not for an income-tax, but for a contribution from the Fonds, and from the salaries of persons holding official situations,—a tax involving an impracticable breach of faith. There ap- pears, therefore, no alternative between a rate-in-aid and some such proposition as that of which Mr. Herbert has given notice. "When we propose a rate-in-aid, he proposes to leave out all the words after the words 'distressed unions in Ire- bid; in order to add the words—' And that in consideration thereof, that an in- come and property tax be assessed on incomes and property in Ireland not liable to income and property tax under the Act 11th and 12th Viet chap. 8.' That is, that there should be a grant, and that that grant should not be charged on a peculiar income and property tax for Ireland, but that, as there is such a grant tote made, the income and property tax should be extended to Ireland."

Lord John felt that the majority of the Irish Members might be in favour of Kr. Herbert's proposition, though many might vote for the Government proposi- tion, from confidence in Government. He was bound to say, that if Ministers were to propose an income-tax they should feel bound to accompany the proposi- tion with others relative to taxation in Ireland. It might not be unjust, but it would be as inexpedient to enforce the Assessed Taxes in Ireland as it was when Lord Ripon repealed them; but "we should, if we propose to assent to Mr. Her- bert's proposition for the extension of the income and property tax to Ireland, hold ourselves at liberty to propose an extension to Ireland of other taxes which are now paid in Great Britain, and which are not paid in Ireland now, to a certain amount. The whole amount would not be more than we now expect to raise by the rate-in-aid. I have stated generally the view which the Government take. I do hope, that by eleven o'clock tomorrow mornins. I may be informed of what the course is which at five o'clock the Irish Members would generally take with respect to Mr. Herbert's motion. I shall now retire from this room; but it may maw to you that there may be some questions which you would wish to ask me, or some farther explanation which you wish to have; and therefore I shall be in the room next to this, and if you will send me a message that you wish to see me any further, I shall he ready to attend you." A Member [Lord Castlereagh]—" There is an answer at once to be given to you Lordship." Lord John Russell—" I think it better that I should retire."

Lord John Russell, accompanied by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Sir Sorge Grey, then left the room.

Thus far the official account. For the sequel we refer in part to another

"

authorized" announcement in the Globe, and in part to the explanation by Lord Castlereagh in the House of Commons.

It seems from that explanation, that a meeting had been held by some of the Irish Members, and that they had determined the answer which should be given to Lord John Russell. Before they went to Downing Street, they waited upon Lord Castlereagh, who had not been present at the pre- liminary meeting, obtained his concurrence, and induced him to act as their spokesman. In that capacity, when Lord John Russell had made his proposition, Lord Castlereagh advanced and endeavoured to attract Lord John's attention; but did not succeed in obtaining it. Lord Castle- reagh afterwards wrote a letter, substantially embodying the reply given below. Lord John Russell explained to Lord Castlereagh, by note, and also by word of mouth in the House, that his perseverance in retiring was not caused by., any want of respect. "Before stating my intention to retire, I stopped to hear the noble Lord's state- ment; but several other gentlemen called out No, not ' It then appeared to me, if I received the noble Lord's answer, I should not be receiving that of the meeting: other gentlemen, after the noble Lord's statement, would declare that they were no parties to it; therefore I should have been involved in a debate as to the real sense of the meeting; and, as my original intention was, I retired into the next room."

Lord John added, that he intended no discourtesy: he regretted that any mis- understanding should have arisen; and if it were necessary he was ready to make an apology.

From the authorized sequel in the Globe, it appears that the reply trans- mitted by Lord Castlereagh was adopted by the general meeting of Irish Members on Thursday morning, and transmitted to Lord John Russell, as follows- " That, as a body, we are not prepared to pledge ourselves to the adoption of any particular tax to be imposed upon Ireland.

"

We are not unwilling to discuss any proposal for this purpose upon its own merits in the House of Commons; but, without hearing the arguments which might be adduced upon the question, and ascertaining the capability of Ireland to bear increased taxation, we could not be in a position to answer for our constitu- encies, and must therefore abstain from offering any opinion to the Government as to the course which it may think proper to adopt. "Lucius O'BRIEN, Chairman."