Banta anti Vroatbings in Varlfament.

POST-OFFICE REFORM.

In the House of Commons, on Tuesday, Sir TnomAs WILDE moved for inquiry into the progress made for giving effect to Mr. Rowland Hill's plan of Post-office improvement.

First, he reviewed the circumstances of Mr. Hill's appointment ; beginning with the publication of his pamphlet in 1837. The writer proposed to reduce the postage of letters to the uniform rate of one penny; anticipating as a con- sequence a considerable temporary deficiency in the Post-office revenue, and a small permanent deficiency; but he expected to make up the deficiency, in a great measure, by other parts of his plan—principally, by increased facilities of delivery, increased security for commercial and trading correspondence, and economy in the whole of the Post-office arrangements. These were portions of the same plan ; one part of which was not to be carried out without the whole. Mr. Hill was appointed by the late Government to assist in carrying out his own plan. The information which he thus acquired fully bore out the statements which he had made, that many officers of the Post-office were ignorant of its working. When examined before a Committee of the House,

1

they did not know how many letters passed through the Post-ol in the course of a year ; and one gentleman, high in the department, estimat \le loss

by the adoption of Mr. Hill's plan at 2,400,0001.—more than the w roils

revenue of the Post-office ! With such notions, it was not surprisi -.If the department should entertain a very strong hostility to Mr. Hill's pled. It was, hoaever, carried into effect as to some important points; but much remained to be done, when in August 1842, Mr. Hill was compelled by the Government to retire ; the Chancellor of the Exchequer putting the reasons for his retire- ment thus—" I readily acknowledge the honourable motives which originally prompted, and which have now induced you to repeat your offer of gratuitous service ; hut I am influenced solely by the consideration that it is not advisable to give a character of permanence to an appointment which, originally created for a temporary purpose, has now, as it appears to me, fulfilled its object. The penny postage has been above two years established, and the principle of it is now thoroughly understood. So long as a Post-office shall continue, so long will opportunities present themselves of effecting important improvements, and the necessity arise of adapting the arrangements to the ever-changing circum- stances of the times and country. But the retention of an independent officer for the purpose of conducting such improvements would necessarily lead either to an entire supercession of those who are, by their offices, responsible for the management of the department; or to a conflict of authorities, highly pre- judicial to the public interests. Under these circumstances, I think at incum- bent on me to decline the offer you have made of further service. But I will take care that your past services shall be duly acknowledged and recorded in a minute of the Treasury." During his occupation of office, Mr. Hill had made repeated suggestions for carrying out the other essential branches of his plan ; and he appealed to Mr. Goulburn and Sir Robert Peel against being denied the means of carrying his scheme into full effect : but those Ministers re- iterated their determination ; and he retired. When Mr. Hill was appointed to a post in the Treasury, it was understood that all his communications were to be made to his superiors ha that department : a prudent arrange- ment, considering the temper of the officers of the Post-office. It was only proposed that he should remain until his plan had been carried into full effect : the three years that he remained there must have sufficed to show what pos- sible inconvenience could result from his position ; and the Lords of the Trea- sury actually reported that the efficiency of the Post-office arrangements had been materially promoted by his care and intelligence. During his engagement, Mr. Hill had brought distinctly under the notice of the Treasury, the heads of the various suggestions which he proposed, in order to the full accomplishment of his plan; but that portion of the plan which entailed a loss to the public revenue had alone been adopted; the suggestions relating to more economical arrangements had not been carried into effect ; and now the individual who had brought forward these improvements was dismissed from the office to which he had been appointed, on the ground that the system of penny postage was fully established, and that the principle was thoroughly understood. But a Committee of the House had recommended other things ; and the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had recorded a minute at the Treasury, ordering the establishment of post-offices in 400 rural districts which were without such accommodation: no definitive arrangement bad been made to fulfil that order.

It should be remembered that the Postmaster-General is a temporary officer, who must derive much of his information from subordinates, hostile, in this case, to the innovator; and some competent person was needed to correct their statements, which sometimes differed widely from the facts. During the period of Mr. Hill's appointment, some extraordinary blunders were detected. In one instance, in checking an item among the payments for the conveyance of the mail by a railway company, it appeared that a payment had been made for a

greater distance than the mail had really been conveyed : this was brought to the notice of the Lords of the Treasury, who desired an explanation from the Post-office: the explanation sent back was that it was all right ; and he be- lieved that a similar answer was returned to a subsequent call for explana- tion: on an inquiry being instituted, however, it was found that it MU all wrong, and that a payment of 400L a year had been made above the amount which was properly due. In another case, it being considered that the charge for the conveyance of the mail by railway was excessive, inquiry was made; and it was found that the average weight of the mail-bag was 8011).—about

equal to the luggage of one passenger, while the space appropriated to its reception was equal to that occupied by sixteen passengers. Some of the

officers, sanctioned by the heads of the department, requested a rise of salary, grounding their demand on a comparison with salaries which they received in 1837: it was found that their statement of salaries of 1837 was quite incorrect. Another instance : some gentlemen in the Post-office in Ireland declared that so much more trouble was necessary in consequence of the establishment of the money-order system, that they must have an allowance for a clerk at 70/. a- year : this representation came through the Post-office to the Treasury : Mr. Hill caused an inquiry to be instituted how many money-orders, so productive of increased trouble, were passed in a day, and it turned out that sometimes

two and sometimes three a-day were passed : that application was consequently negatived. Again, the Postmaster-General boasted of savinob 40/. a-year in relation to the mail-guard of the Glasgow and Ayr railway : it turned out that he bad dismissed a guard appointed by the railway company at 40/. a-year, and appointed another at 100/. a-year. These statements went to show how much depended on the Post-office ; and it also showed that the Lords of the Trea- sury could not effect improvements without the aid of some person whose at- tention was exclusively directed to the subject. The public were left so much in the dark with respect to the packet system, that it was not certain whether it yielded a revenue or not. It was clear that the Admiralty kept up a steam- marine which was not needed for the Post-office, and for some time the ex- rose was paid by the Admiralty : in a return to the House of Lords, the net income yielded by that source to the Post-office was set down at 600,0001.; but in another return to the Commons, the expense also was transferred to the Post-office, absorbing 200,000/. or 300,000/. of the income. Mr. Hill pledged himself to prove an error in the latter return of 100,000/. Among the altera- tions proposed by Mr. Hill and neglected by Government, was a junction of the general and district postmen in the Metropolis, so as to furnish the means for an hourly delivery of letters. As a security against the fraudulent inter- ception of letters, he suggested a registration, at the large remuneration of 6d: each letter, (for it could be proved that 3d. each would more than cover the expense): a registration at la. was adopted, on the plea that if the fee were 6d. the business of the Post-office would be inconveniently increased!

Mr. Hill undertook by his plan, if it were fully carried out, to add to the commercial prosperity as well as the private comfort of the nation ; he anti- cipated from the maturity of it an enormous saving. Would the public be content that the department which the present Postmaster-General stated had never improved but when it was forced should be left entirely to itself? Nei- ther economy nor facility was permitted to be carried into effect before Mr. Hill undertook the public service. There was no guarantee that any thing would be done to effect those desirable results now. Taking into considera- tion, therefore, these statements as to the numerous cases in which great savings might be made—on the other hand, taking into consideration the utter absence of all evidence on the part of the Post-office of a desire to carry the whole of the improvements besides that one alone which went to diminish the revenue into effect—and giving credit to the individual who offered to spend his time in the public service gratuitously, credit for sincerity—he thought a case was made out for inquiry. The terms of the motion were, for a "Select Committee to inquire into the progress which has been made in carrying into effect the recommendations of Mr. Rowland Hill for Post-office improvement ; and whether the further carrying into effect of such recommendations, or any of them, will be beneficial to the country."

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved an amendment—

He maintained that Mr. Hill had been suffered to complete the plan, not perhaps as devised by himself, but as recommended by the House of Commons; the heads of the plan so recommended being the payment of id. postage for every half-ounce of weight, prepayment by stamp, and the establishment of day-mails to the great towns. The contract between Mr. Hill and Lord Mel- bourne's Government was limited to carrying into effect "the penny postage "; it was to endure for two years, and for one year more ; and Mr. Goulburn had strictly and bona fide fulfilled the terms of that contract : if something different was meant, he had really misunderstood it. In a very short time, however, he observed that a practice prevailed of referring to Mr. Hill every thing, however minute, which had the least reference to Post-office transactions—of sending to him papers connected with the Post-office without reference to their con- tents, and leaving him to submit them to the Chancellor of the Exche- quer. He soon found that the regularly-appointed officers of the Post-office department were thus left in entire ignorance of most of the transactions connected with the Post-office; and knowing that the appointment was given to Mr. Hill merely for a limited period, and that the time must arrive when the Treasury would have to take the same course with the Post- office as they did with the other public departments of the State, he took an early opportunity of intimating to the Secretary for the Treasury, that he expected he would deal with the Post-office business in the same way as with the other business of the Treasury. He considered it necessary that the Treasury should have the control over the whole of the subordinate departments ; and he had acted with regard to the Post-office in the same way as he would have done with regard to any other department of the state. He was afraid at the time that the arrangement would give some dissatisfac- tion to Mr. Hill. It was not, however, from any want of confidence in that gentleman but solely from what he conceived to be his duty in rendering efficient the services of the Post-office, that he had acted in the manner he had done. Government merely laid down the principle, that the interposition of a third party between the Treasury and the department to be controlled was in- convenient. If this was to be a permanent condition of the Treasury with respect to the Post-office, why should not the same arrangement be adopted with respect to the Commissioners of Excise, Customs, or Taxes? He could assure the House that any such appointment would be a most inconvenient mode of conducting business, and would deprive the Chancellor of the Ex- chequer of that control over those departments which it is his duty to exer- cise.

Mr. Goulburn 'proceeded to state that some of Mr. Hill's suggestions had been adopted : after some protracted inquiries and preparations, it was resolved to make a selection of rural districts in which posts were to be established, taking all such as show a weekly receipt of 100 letters; considerations of ex- pense would prevent the accommodation being extended to others. As to an hourly delivery, he doubted Mr. Hill's assertion that it would increase the number of letters. The plan of Mr. Hill proposed to combine the whole Post- office system with an hourly delivery: now, there were 252 general and 316 district postmen when Mr. Hill's proposition was made, being in the whole 568; but Mr. Hill, in proposing the -hourly delivery, made no allowance in his calculation for human strength and power with respect to the labour which would have to be undergone if an hourly delivery were to be adopted : three relays of the present number of men would be needed, at a propor-

tionate increase of expense. And it was not certain that men in business would like to receive their letters in so many successive parcels. Nor was it certain that a plan of registration of letters would offer all the security sup- posed : it would not, for instance, insure any particular sum enclosed, nor the safe transmission of that sum by servants to the Post-office. Whilst a money-order could be obtained for from 2d. to U., and whilst a remittance could be made with perfect safety, why adopt a system which would expose the sender to a loss and other parties to temptation? The yearly sum trans- mitted by money-orders under the present plan has increased to a very large amount in each quarter. As to the conflicting statements of returns, some- times they arose from the fact that returns were moved for in different terms and for different objects ; and such was the case with those relative to the packets. The sincere desire of Government to carry out the measure was proved by their selection of the nobleman who presided over the Post-office : the person selected was Lord Lowther, who had been the subject of Mr. Hill's eulogy as the person most likely to appreciate his plan. This was the strongest evidence that the Government was desirous of giving full effect to the new plan. With respect to revenue, be considered that Parliament had abandoned the idea of making the Post-office a source of revenue ; and the only object was to secure that the advantage gained was commensurate with theism' of revenue. Expenses had been incurred not contemplated by the original calculation, nor attributable to Mr. Hill's plan, but arising out of the new facilities for con- veyance afforded by steam-boats and other modes of transit. These, though not attributable to Mr. Hill's plan, still added to the expense of the Post-office. It was not to be denied that there were errors in the Post-office; but if there were errors and miscalculations Mr. Hill must share some portion of the im- putation. That gentleman looked to a fivefold increase in the correspondence, the actual increase was from 80,000,000 to 220,000,000. It was true that the increase of the expense in the management had not been more than Mr. Hill had stated in his calculations. In his pamphlet, Mr. Hill stated the in- crease of expense at 300,0001.: when he began his operations the expenses were 600,000L, and they now amounted to 900,000!.; and therefore, when the Government was told that they had been the persons Who had prevented him from saving hundreds of thousands of pounds, they might at least be allowed to say, without imputation, that his views on the subject were in some degree ex rated.

afflementioned further improvements effected by Government. By the new

treaty with France, the expense of conveying letters to all parts of France had not only been materially diminished, by which a large impulse had been given to correspondence, but this country was enabled now to send its letters in closed boxes through France to other foreign nations on the French frontiers, and thus to keep accounts with those countries, by which the postage could either be paid on the transmission of the letter or on its arrival at its destina- tion. With other countries similar treaties had either been concluded or were now in course of negotiation. Again, in the year 1838, there was only one day-mail in existence; whereas now he believed that on every road out of Lon- don day-mails were established and in full operation. He might also point out the establishment of additional deliveries of the general post, by which the re- sidents in the suburban districts of the Metropolis received their letters at a much earlier period. Those and many other improvements, which he need not state to the House, had gone on from time to time progrevely, and as cir- cumstances appeared to justify, without greater sacrifice to the revenue than the Treasury felt themselves justified in granting. He objected to Sir Thomas Wilde's motion, that it would authorize a Com- mittee to plan improvements, and to supersede the responsibility which ought to rest on the Post-office department and the Treasury : but instead of shrink- ing from inquiry, they challenged it ; and he moved, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the measures which have been adopted for the general introduction of a penny rate of postage, and for facilitating the convey- ance of letters, and the result of such measures as far as relates to the revenue and expenditure of the Post-office, and the general convenience of the country ; and to report their observations thereupon to the House."

Mr. F. T. BARING was glad that the motion would be substantially agreed to without a division— He explained, that in the "bargain " of the late Government with Mr. Hill, the term "penny postage" was taken to mean more than the mere reduction of the postage. Mr. Hill's conduct in office had been such, that if the Chan- cellor of the Exchequer found that he could not get on with that gentleman and the Postmaster-General, Mr. Hill ought to have been provided with some other situation, in which his talent and abilities might still have been useful. He did not blame the Post-office ; but it was absurd to rely on it for carrying out Mr. Hill's plan. As to the registration, be did not intend permanently to retain so high a fee as Is. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had over- stated the money transmitted through the Money-order Office—in fact doubling the figures ; as if the quantity of water passing through a pipe were measured by the amount entering at one end added to the amount discharged at the other end! [Mr. GOOLEURN admitted his mistake : he had read the figures from a wrong column.]

Mr. WALLACE contended for a registration, as necessary to counteract plunder of letters, especially in Scotland ; and for a Board of Commis- sioners to perform duties which are too great for one man. He was most ready to admit that Lord Lowther was fitter than any man he knew for the office : but in his opinion the duties could only be per- formed with thorough efficiency by a commission.

Sir ROBERT PEEL said that he and his colleagues were conscious of having done every thing in their power to give effect to Mr. Hill's plan— He had never doubted the social advantages of lowering the duty on letters ; his only doubt was as to the effect on the revenue. In all other respects, the result of any inquiry would show, that whatever might have been the loss to the revenue, much advantage ad been derived in what concerned the en- couragement of industry, and the promotion of communication between the humbler classes of the community. He had already, elsewhere, given his full testimony to the ability and disinterestedness of Mr. Hill; and he willingly re- peated that testimony now. It was wrong to say that Mr. Hill was "dis- missed"; it only was true that his temporary appointment had not been con- tinued. If such opposition was to be apprehended from the Post-office depart- ment, the late Government were to blame in the course which they adopted. It appeared to him that, had it been deemed necessary to retain Mr. Hill's services, and had it been conceived that the Post-office authorities were hostile to the plan, prejudiced against its principle and its details, and indisposed to lend themselves with zeal and cordiality to carrying it out, the proper way would have been, not to retain Mr. Hill in control over the Post-office, yet unconnected with it, but to have at once made him Secretary of the Post-office. ("Hear, hear!" from Ole Opposition benches.) That department would thus have been no longer in a position continually to obstruct, as the complaint was, the due execution of the plan ; but Mr. Hill himself, the person so deeply anxious for the success of the scheme, would have the immediate control of It. The other mode, of keep- ing Mr. Hill on from year to year, uncertain of the tenure of his office, was, in every point of view, most inconsistent with the public interest. All the argu- ments of the right honourable gentleman were in favour of the permanent rather than of the temporary employment of Mr. Hill ; because, if his services were essential to the proper working of the plan, then his appoinment should not have been renewable from year to year, but a fixed appointment. Sir Ro- bert went on to repeat Mr. GouIburn's vindication of Lord Lowther's fitness for his office, admitted by Mr. Wallace: and he insisted that Colonel Maher- ley's honourable character forbade the idea of his obstructing a fair experiment. Ile did not think the Government would be justified in refusing a fair inquiry into the general operation of the plan, without the Committee's wasting its la- bours in a fruitless supervision of mere matters of administration. But, what- ever course the House might take, he should feel it his duty, as well as bis right honourable friend, to continue to do that which they had done—lend all their weight, influence, and authority, for the purpose of securing justice to the plan of Mr. Rowland Hill.

Mr. MILNER GIBSON complained of arrangements by which the communication between Manchester and Hull, and some other parts of the country, had been impeded ; and the Post-office had not vouchsafed either redress or notice to a statement of the grievance, made nine or ten months ago. Mr. AGLIONBY, Mr. HOME, and Mr. Hurl' spoke on the same side ; Sir GEORGE CLERK on the Ministerial side. Sir THOMAS WILDE made a sharp reply. The original motion was withdrawn, and Mr. Goulburn's motion was agreed to unaminously.

On Thursday, the following Committee was nominated, on the motion of Sir THOMAS FREMANTLE-

Sir George Clerk, Viscount Ebrington, Mr. Emerson Tennent, Mr. Wallace, Mr. Beckett Denison, Mr. Ricardo, Mr. Trotter, Mr. Francis Baring, Mr. Cripps, Mr. Hawes, Mr. Escott, Mr. Wyse, Mr. Bramston, Mr. Milner Gibson, and Mr. Wilson Patten.

IRISH ARMS BILL.

The House of Commons went into Committee on the Arms Bill, on Monday ; Lord CLEMENTS, and Mr. WALLACE as a Scotch Member, having previously declared their intention to oppose the bill to the utmost.

On the first clause being proposed, Lord JoHN RUSSELL asked Lord Eliot, whether the object of the bill could not be attained by retaining

only those clauses which were similar to the old Arms Act—in fact,

merely by reenacting the existing Arms Act ? Lord ELIOT remarked, that Lord John Russell and Lord Palmerston had admitted an Arms Bill to be necessary : the question was, whether it ought not to be made effectual for its purpose ; and, without saying that the existing law was inoperative, some means was obviously necessary to facilitate the identification of fire-arms, such as the branding. He could not, there- fore, accede to Lord John Russell's suggestion. Lord JOHN RUSSELL rejoined, that then Government lost the benefit of the argument that the bill was merely the renewal of an old law, and therefore he felt himself at perfect liberty to oppose the measure. The branding was a more odious provision than any which had passed ; and the present object should be, if a measure of the kind were necessary at all, to pass one of such a nature as should not irritate Ireland. Lord ELIOT observed, that what had fallen from him, Lord John, with his usual ingenuity, but with less than his usual ingenuousness, had distorted ; it being, without doubt, very convenient to build a change of tactics on the reply just made! Let Lord John compare the bill with that of 1838, and see if the present were not the milder of the two. Mr. HOME wished that Lord John, when in power, had put aside all manner of Arms Bills : but better late than never. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that Mr. Hume mistook him : he thought an Arms Bill necessary, but not the new clauses.

After a desultory discussion, in wh;ch Lord CLEMENTS, Sir H. W. BARRON, Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN, and Mr. PIGOTT, urged previous ob- jections to the measure, Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN moved an amendment in the first clause, to render unnecessary a reregistering of arms already registered. Mr. WYSE objected to the vague words "fit and proper,' as applied to the applicants for certificates ; and he instanced the recent case in the county of 'Waterford, where a man of excellent character, who rented forty acres of land, having purchased arms, was refused by the Magistrates to allow them to be registered, on the ground that the applicant lived in a thatched house, which had no second floor. Ulti- mately Mr. O'Brien's amendment was rejected, by 85 to 50.

Mr. Sstrrn O'BRIEN moved the omission of words requiring the applicant to specify where he intended to keep the arms, as it would be inconvenient to sportsmen. Lord Ewa' offered to insert the word " usually." The amendment was rejected, by 107 to 36, and the word "

usually" was inserted.

Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD opposed the clause as a whole. It was affirmed, by 123 to 62.

Clauses 3d and 4th, relative to the branding, were postponed. Clause 5th was agreed to. Sir ROBERT FERGUSON moved the omission of clause 6th. Mr. REDHEAD YORKE moved that the Ch-airman report progress: the motion was negatived, by 229 to 24. Mr. Yorke's amend- ment was rejected, by 169 to 96 ; and the clause was agreed to.

On the motion of Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN, the House resumed ; and the CHAIRMAN reported progress.

The Committee was resumed on Thursday ; when Mr. WYSE moved an amendment on clause 7th, which grants an appeal against the refusal of Magistrates to give a licence. The clause provides, that, pending the appeal, the applicant shall give up his arms: Mr. Wyse proposed that he should deposit them with the nearest Sub-Inspector of Constabu- lary, or some licensed dealer in arms. The amendment was rejected, by 127 to 67.

The 8th clause, which orders arms to be marked, gave rise to some loose discussion ; Lord CLEMENTS ridiculing the " concession of sub- stituting the word " marked" for " branded ;" and Mr. HOME depre- cating the waste of time in disputing " whether arms should be branded with a hot iron or a cold punch." (Laughter.) Mr. MORGAN JOHN O'CONNF.LL objected to a proviso in the clause, that persons might have their arms marked by gun-makers of their own nomination, because it would produce inequality between the rich and the poor who could not avail themselves of it. Lord ELIOT did not think the proviso liable to that abuse; but, yielding to the urgency of Members, he consented to omit it.

On the question that the clause as amended should stand part of the bill, Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved to strike it out— It was supported on the ground that the heads of the Constabulary declared such a measure to be necessary. All persons engaged in any particular depart- ments, if consulted with respect to any thing which they were connected with, would suggest measures that, if the Government were disposed to contract the liberty of the subject, would, no doubt, render the operation of the laws more effective. In the same way, English gamekeepers, if they were consulted upon

the best way of protecting game, would suggest that the best mode would be to pass an act enabling them to enter into the houses of suspected persons to look for gins and snares,and to destroy any dogs they might find upon the premises. Some chief constable of William the Conqueror time might have justified the

curfew on the ground that it tended to prevent robberies and violence; yet of' all William's lawless and cruel acts none made so great an impression as the curfew. Another illustration : during the late Government, the Lords of the Treasury thought it necessary, because the marks on taxed carts were not sufficiently distinct, to introduce a regulation compelling people to paint their names on the carts two inches high instead of one inch high. This regulation appeared unimportant, and yet it created great indignation among the farmers; and such strong representations were made to Members of Parliament and to the Treasury on the subject, that it was thought necessary to repeal the regu- lation the next session. Lord John stated what he thought ought to be the general policy of a Government with respect to an Arms Bill: if they found the offences diminishing, as, he maintained, they were upon the whole, they should rather continue the bill from time to time, with the view that it would be put less and less in operation, and at length discontinued ; thus making the transi- tion gradual from the more rigorous enactment to the less rigorous law, and ultimately to its erasure from the statute-book altogether. For these reasons, be called upon the House to omit this new clause.

Lord ELIOT defended the clause with reasons already adduced in previous discussions on the general measure. He cited the authority of Mr. Warburton, an experienced Magistrate, in favour of its neces- sity; and maintained that there is special difficulty in tracing violence committed by fire-arms, which can be used from a distance; while the use of a bludgeon commonly leaves traces which lead to detection. Lord CLEMENTS stated that he had been obliged to bring Mr. War- burton, on whose authority Lord Eliot relied, before the High Sheriff of Leitrim, for improperly interfering at an election. He thought that if the Viceroyalty were done away—Dublin Castle cleansed out, and the Court there abolished—it would do more to restore peace to Ireland than an Arms Bill. The other speakers in opposition to the clause were Sir ROBERT FERGUSON, Mr. WALLACE, Sir DAVID ROCHE, Mr. AGLIONBY, Sir THOMAS ESMONDE, Mr. Ross, the O'CONOR DON, Mr. WYSE, and Sir THOMAS Wu.DE,—who remarked that the arguments in support of the clause applied only to fire-arms, while the clause applied to arms generally, a term that might be taken to include spits and billhooks. The clluse was supported by Mr. VESEY, Mr. VILLIERS STUART, Mr. T. B. C. Satins, (Attorney-General for Ireland,) Sir ARTHUR BROOKE, Mr. W. MARTIN, Lord BERNARD, and Lord JOCE- LYN. On a division, it was affirmed, by 178 to 104.

The 9th clause permitted a person who has not registered arms in his possession at the first sessions after the passing of the Act, to do so at the subsequent sessions : Sir ROBERT FERGUSON said, that an am- biguity in the wording tended to prevent the registering at any future session after the first, and he moved to strike out the ambiguous part. Sir JAMES GRAHAM proposed to meet the difficulty by adding a proviso to the clause at a subsequent stage. Mr. CoLLETT wished the clause to be postponed altogether, so that Members might vote upon it as a whole, after its amendment. Neither side would give way ; and, after a motion that the Chairman report progress had been rejected, by 152 to 92, the motion was repeated, and agreed to; the Committee to sit again on Monday.

CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.

In the House of Lords on Monday, the Earl of ABERDEEN having moved the recommitment of the Church of Scotland Benefices Bill, the Duke of WELLINGTON signified the Queen's consent to the con- sideration of the measure.

Lord CAMPBELL opposed the motion ; Lord Brougham, who took a deep interest in the measure, having left the House in consequence of severe indisposition. Lord Campbell had understood the Lord Chan- cellor to say, that an amendment should be introduced to convert the hill from a declaratory to an enacting one ; and he proceeded to argue, that, conferring the liberurn arbitrium on the Church of Scotland, it was an insult to those who decided in the Auchterarder case ; that it would, ruin the Church of Scolard ; and that the constitutional party in that church had averred that such a power could not exist without the erec- tion of a spiritual tyranny wholly insupportable. The opinion of the Law Lords, that the bill was not a true exposition of the existing law was unanimous.

The Earl of ABERDEEN defended the bill— So far from the constitutional party in the Scottish Church disapproving of it, several who would have seceded had deferred their secession in hopes of seeing the bill passed; and it was his firm belief that if it did not pass, a hun- dred and fifty more would secede. The difficulties which he had encountered in Scotland with regard to the bill had entirely arisen from its inadequacy to meet the expectations of the people and of the Church. As far as it went, however, be considered the bill a just and proper bill. It was a measure which he could not abandon; for in abandoning it he should be abandoning what he considered the indisputable right of the people and that right no power under Heaven should make him concede. The bid had undergone a careful revi.ion by the Law Officers of the Crown, under the direction of a learned Judge who pronounced it to be in accordance with the constitution of the Church of Scotland. He did not see that the Auchterarder decision would be affected by the recognition of the people's rights.

The Duke of WELLINGTON contended that the bill had nothing t do with the Auchterarder case : in that case the decision negatived the right of the Presbytery to refuse collation because the majority of male communicants objected to the presentee; whereas the bill said nothing about the majority of male communicants ; and it went to put the presentee on his trials.

Lord COTTENHAM denied that any thing had been said to prove the bill not a declaratory measure; and he challenged the Earl of Aberdeen to name any learned person who had read the bill and had given such an opinion. The Lord Chancellor did not think so, and no Scottish lawyer had declared the bill to be consistent with the law, of Scotland. And he went on to repeat objections against the measure.

The LORD CHANCELLOR replied to Lord Cottenham's challenge— The 3d clause expressly, and in terms, stated that no objection should pre- vail, unless it was founded on some defect in the presentee's ministerial gifts. Unless the objection, therefore, ranged itself within that character, it could not prevail ; and consequently there was an end at once of the argument, that the

bill was an iunovation on the law of Scotland. The question in the Auchter-

artier case was, whether the Presbytery bad the right to refuse to try the qua- lifications of the presentee, not what those qualifications should be. The bill bad been submitted to the Lord Advocate, the Solicitor-General for Scotland, and the Lord Justice Clerk ; who as Dean of Faculty, argued the Auchter- arder case at the bar with great ability. That learned Judge expressed himself with respect to this bill in these terms—" As the bill stands, it is the deliber- ate opinion of myself, of the Lord-Advocate, and of the Solicitor-General, that it embodies the existing law of Scotland." In another passage lie spoke more in detail. Be said—" I beg to state most decidedly my clear opinion, that your bill is only declaratory of the law of Scotland on the subject of the collation of ministers by the Church ; or as another statute calls it, the examination and admission of ministers; or as the statute of George I. describes it, of trying the qualities of ministers. I admit that the law has never before been so ex- plained and cleared up ; and your bill goes to the full extent of the principle of the suitableness of the minister, as admitted by me in my judgment in the Auchterarder case." The former bill was also a declaratory bill ; and the late Lord President pronounced that to be really so. The present Lord President also said, in a letter to Lord Aberdeen—" I hold that the enactments proposed in your bill are in consonance with the true principles of the constitution of the Church of Scotland. 1 cannot, therefore, persuade myself that there is any solid ground for holding that your Lordships' bill can be justly viewed as impeaching the authority of the judgment in the Auchterarder case. In that Cage, nothing was, in fact, judicially determined as to the extent of the power of the Presbytery in trying the qualification and completing the admission of the presentee which the Church had thought proper to devolve upon the com- municants." Lord Corebouse, Lord Jeffrey, and five others of the Judges, were authorities against the arguments of the Opposition; and Lord Lynd- hurst rested the case on the authority of the Scotch Judges.

Lord DENMAN did not feel competent to argue the question merely as one of Scotch law ; but the arguments for passing the declaratory law seemed to him to be alarming : a very strong case should be made out before the judgment in the A uchterarder ease, with the reasons given for it, should thus be set aside. It was remarkable that the Lord Chancellor himself abstained from giving an opinion on the subject.

On a division, the amendment Was rejected, by 30 to 8; and the House went into Committee. But the Earl of ABERDEEN consented to defer the further consideration of the bill ; and the Committee was ad- journed to Thursday.

A strange irregular discussion arose on Tuesday on the attempt to force the bill forward on Monday.

Lord BROUGHAM complained that Lord Aberdeen had not complied with the request to postpone a measure which could only have for its object to in- sult and affront the Judges in their Lordships' House, in order to gratify the self-importance of certain other Judges elsewhere. " So much," exclaimed Lord Brougham, " for having a relation in the Cabinet !" He threatened to give a detailed explanation of the circumstances of the insult.

The Earl of HADDINGTON said that Lord Brougham could not have taken a more inconvenient or extraordinary opportunity of mentioning his intention ; and the Earl disclaimed for Lord Aberdeen all insult or affront to the Judges in the House.

Lord BROUGHAM—" What does the noble Earl mean by my taking an ex- traordinary opportunity 2' Extraordinary! What care I for a public break- fast P That 's 'extraordinary,' if you will. It is' extraordinary '—most extraordinary '—that the noble Earl should not be in his place."

The Earl of HADDINGTON—" His bill is not before us tonight." Lord BROUGHAM—" But why is it not ? The noble Earl knows that I was here last night, and asked, as a personal favour, on the ground of indisposition, that the Committee on the bill might be postponed. I was the party about to be put on my trial. I was the party whose law was about to be declared to be wrong, by this political act, which interferes with the functions of the Judges in your Lordships House. I was not, however, to he indulged, it seems ; for, to any utter astonishment, the bill was debated in my absence, and my law was declared to be erroneous, behind my back. That is what is extraordinary ; and not that I come down on the first occasion to complain of the treatment I have received. I will not condescend to discuss the question of the Scottish law with any noble friend. It is not with him that I intend to debate it, but with the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack ; and if it please God to spare me, 1 will enter fully and in detail into the question on Thursday."

The Earl of HADDINGTON---" I am exceedingly glad that my noble friend does not intend to condescend to discuss a point of law with me; and I can as- sure him, that if he did condescend to do so, I should take the first opportunity to_get out of the discussion."

CAMPBELL—" My Lords, I wish "- The Earl of SHAFTESBURY, (from the woolsack)—" Really I think it is high time to put an end to this very irregular conversation."

Lord BROUGHAM—" We'll make it regular. My Lords, I move that this Rouse do now adjourn."

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY (addressing Lord Campbell, and resuming his seat)—" Ah! well, then, now you can go on."

Lord CAMPBELL only wished to observe, that he thought his noble and learned friend was quite justified in the course he had taken. And he went on to condemn the hill.

The conversation dropped, and the House adjourned.

On Thursday, there was a conversation in perfect contrast with the foregoing—

Lord ABERDEEN said, that on Monday he had left Lord Brougham with the understaccling that be did not mind the bill's being advanced a stage, if he had a subsequent opportunity of opposing it. He would not aggravate the pain of being opposed to Lord Brougham by any act of discourtesy on his own part. As Lord Brougham's illness continued, the Committee en the bill should be postponed till Monday.

Lord BROUGHAM said, had it been an act of discourtesy on the part of the noble Earl, it would have been the first of which he had been guilty : of course, it was clear there had been a misunderstanding between his noble friend and himself.

Certain amendments, which Lord CAMPBELL intended to propose, were ordered to be printed.

BANKRUPTCY LAW.

In the House of Lords, on Monday, Lord Corrnwrram presented various petitions from bankers, merchants, traders, solicitors, and others, of Boston, Cambridge, and Gainsborough, praying for an alteration of the Bankruptcy Act of last year ; and he moved for a Select Committee to inquire into the operation of that Act.

Be supported the motion,with a long speech, alleging many sources of incon- venience and expense in the working of the present law. There are many pro- COWS before a fiat of bankruptcy can issue ; the creditor being obliged to prove severally, that he is a creditor, that the debtor is a trader, and that be has committed an act of bankruptcy. Up to the recent change, lists of Com- missioners of Bankruptcy were made for all large towns to the number of 140, and the fiat was directed to the one nearest to the bankrupt's residence : now corn- missions are fixed in certain districts. To take the Birmingham district alone, that comprises several populous towns—Leicester, Nottingham, Boston, Nor- .ich, Louth, and Yarmouth, varying in distance from Birmingham trout 45 to 122 miles; and from those towns the bankrupt is obliged to proceed and to reside in Birmingham during certain inquiries into his affairs, at a great expense to the estate. The expense of the mere fiat proceeding averages from 30/. to 601., having been increased by 20/. In country bankruptcies, the dividend seldom exceeds 5s. in the pound ; and was it to be supposed that for such a dividend small creditors would travel 80 or 100 miles ? Yet a large proportion of the debts are under 10/. or 20/. This was in effect taking money out of the pockets of the poor creditor to put it into the pockets of the rich one ; because it was worth the while of the latter to prove his debt ; and all the dividends which would otherwise be paid to the small creditors would fall into the general fund, and be divided among the large creditors. The expense of preparing an affidavit is from 30s. to 31.; then the creditor must employ an agent, and when the dividends were payable he must find some means of receiving them : owing to all these expenses the small creditors were actually excluded. But he had been furnished with particular instances. At a place 44 miles from Exeter, the bankrupt's books showed that, before the commission issued, the property was 8,7991., and only 700/. was realized under the commission, and there were but two creditors who proved under 10/. In anotherinstance, at Leicester, 112 miles from London, within two months of the balance-sheet being brought in, though there were eighteen creditors no creditors had proved, and no creditors had attended the meetings. He asked for a Committee to investigate such allega- tions.

The LORD CHANCELLOR opposed the motion— The bill in question had come into operation only in November last : it com- prehended a variety of details, the working of which could only be ascertained from the result of experience ; and it should not be taken out of the hands of Government before its machinery was completely developed. The measure itself contemplated successive improvements : it lett it to the Queen in Council to form the particular districts and the stations of the Judges, and from time to time, as experience should suggest, to alter and new-model the districts, and point out the places where the Judges should he established. The principle of the bill was this: a district had existed round London for more than one hun- dred and fifty years of forty miles for the jurisdiction of the Commissioners established in London ; this system had always been found to work well, and it had been considered right that this jurisdiction should be extended—that forty miles, in consequence of the alterations that had taken place in the means of locomotion, was too small a circuit ; and it was considered proper to establish a similar system in the country. The petitions against the bill all seemed to emanate from the same origin, and to demand a return to the old system; which had been condemned by the merchants, hankers, and traders of London. Al- ready the new system has detected cases of peculation. There was one in- stance in the Wentworth bankruptcy ; the expense of working the fiat in that case was represented to be 21,000/. and upwards, and of that sum 12,000/. had been paid—to whom ? why, to the Commissioner. In another case the estate was 6,0001., and the agent's charges allowed amounted to 1,100/. Under the old system, Commissioners used to meet two or three times in one day, and make separate charges for each meeting, and even charges of travelling for each. The Lord Chancellor justified the extent of the districts by comparing it with the old London district ; a hundred miles beinga lees inconvenient distance now than forty miles forty years ago ; and all traders in Ireland must proceeed to Dublin in Bankruptcy affairs. Lord Lyndhurst cited instances in which the expense has been lessened by the new measure: a solicitor's bill, for exam- ple, reduced from 28/. to 72/.

Lord BROUGHAM gave his testimony to the diminished expense tinder the present system. Lord CAMPBELL contended that Lord Cottenham's objections had not been answered.

The motion was negatived, without a division.

MISCELLANEOUS.

THE PRINCESS AUGUSTA'S ANNUITY BILL passed the House of Lords on Monday.

EXTRADITION OF CRIMINALS. In the House of Lords, on Monday, the Earl of ABERDEEN introduced a bill to give effect to one of the articles of the late treaty between her Majesty and the United States of America, relative to the surrender of offenders, and also of a bill to give effect to a treaty between her Majesty and the King of the French for a similar purpose. The bill was read a first time, to be read a second time on Friday.

CAPTAIN MACONOCIIIE'S SYSTEM OF CONVICT DISCIPLINE. On Thursday,. Mr. G. W. HOPE obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend so much of an act passed in the last session of Parliament, entitled " An Act for the Government of New South Wales and Van Dieman's Land," as relates to Norfolk Island.

CUSTODY OF INSANE OFFICERS. Captain PECFIELL moved, on Wednesday, for a Select Committee to consider the petitions of Mrs. Forbes, Mrs. Rick- etts, and Mrs. Porches, whose husbands, officers in the Navy, had been con- fined gratuitously in an asylum at Iloxton, but subsequently removed to Has- ler, where a deduction was made from their pay for their maintenance, to the serious injury of their families. Captain GORDON opposed the motion. No reason had been shown why the decision formerly pronounced on the subject should be reversed. The charge for officers so situated had been reduced from the half of their pay to Is. 6d. a-day. In the case of Lieutenant Forbes, he had become insane after he left the service. In the case of Lieutenant Porches, a pension had actually been granted to his wife. After some discussion, the motion was rejected, by 96 to 47.

ENCROACHMENT ON HAMPSTEAD HEATH. In the House of Lords, on Thursday, the Earl of EGMONT withdrew the Wilson's Estate Bill. It had been called a bill for the enclosure of Hampstead Heath, but it was really a bill for the improvement of Sir Thomas Wilson's estate, to enable leases to be granted for ninety-nine years instead of twenty•one. Lord BROUGHAM ob- served, that the object of the bill was very clear, as people could not build on a twenty-one years lease, but they did build on a ninety-nine years lease : but as the bill was withdrawn, he would say no more. The order for the second reading was discharged.

TOWNSHEND PEERAGE. It will be remembered, that in the House of Commons lass week, the Earl of Leicester denied that the Marchioness of Townshend had expressed her disapproval of his claim ; and he said that Lord Brougham's statement to that effect was made on the authority, not of a communication', from the Marchioness, but of one from Mr. Ridgway, an honest gentleman, but an agent interested for the Marquis. To this con- tradiction Lord BROUGHAM adverted in the House of Lords on Monday ; remarking, that by setting :up his claim after evidence, which was not gain- said even by opponents of the bill, the Earl of Leicester made himself a party to the conspiracy : and Lord Brougham read a letter from Mr. Ridgway, dated 129, Piccadilly, 3d June 1843, saying—. The Marchioness Townshend called on me in Piccadilly, smarting under the odium which attached to her Ladyship, in consequence of the proceedings then pending in the House of Lords, and re- quested me to disabuse your Lordship of the impression that she had been a willing party to the attempt to impose her children on the Townshend family : the real history of the transaction being, that the whole proceeding, com- mencing with the baptism of the children in 1823, was planned and executed by Mr. Dunn Gardner and Mr. Margetts, and in direct opposition to her wishes; that she was then and had been always strongly opposed to it, but that her oh

jections were overruled by her father and Mr. Margetts. Three days after the interview, her Ladyship requested me to authorize, beg, and entreat your Lord- ship, as an act of justice to herself, to make this statement in the House of Lords before the case was closed."