Debates anti Vrocetbinns in %Jar!lament.
CORN-LAWS.
A large number of petitions both in favour of and against the repeal of the Cora-laws were presented. to the House of commons, on mon- dav, Till,: preliminary busin,ss Navin; been accomplished,
Mr. VILLIERS rose to move, " That this House \rill immediately re- solve i.self into a Committee of the whole :House, to take into coesider- ation the Act regulating the Importation of Foreign Corn." Be com- menced his speech by some observations on the importance of the sub- ject, and the general consequences Of the law, for the maintenztoce of which he presumed his opponents were ready to state their arguments. He reoretted that before they had resolved to decide this question, they had sa far I:ins:rotten what was expected by the country, as to refuse to receive the tendered information—to hear befit' they determined ; but he suppos;2,1 they would now et le:ot stow the grounds l'r retaining the Corn-laws og,etast the O•eliiios aed wisims of tbe comoninky. h strange--it was :doel.,1 el \o:ble--tho at the pres,m daythe I louse of Commons slimald he (II:massing the question, whether F.oglishinen shotild be pe'::Ilitted of trade with the best easmimars :m- etes to the bast markets. to .1 is ed, they who went out 00 the din ishai
a;eillel his eimien, meet he ily lauJt at the ignorance and intheeility
ofd pi,ophs who could sobmit to such lle understood that 31r. Cayiey would propose on amendment, declaring the Corn-laws zul- vantogeme; 0) the productive &lasses. he would divide the prieloative classes into two—doise employed in the production of food, and those employed i i the p a eetion of other things; and he would tell Mr. Cayley. that it was innerly impossihle fir hint to prove that the high price of boat ever h of been or ever could be advantagemts to the :seri- culture! labourer. Mr. Villiers referred to the Report of the Commis- sioaers eppoimed to investigate the operation of the old Poor-law. proof' ;Ise a high price of provisions Ilad invariably been atteeded with distress of the labouring population in rural districts ; whence there lied been cerstant eloiossation, in search or employment and subsistence, both to foreign edit tt rias and the man tithe; luring towns. 'rite gm-co test dis- tress, and. in I sao eonlinotian. its consequence, prevailed in the as! rieultu- nil (list ri•os, not W it 11Ctaieli t l'orn-laws. Neither were other classes of working. 1100100 IMIOtitCd. by those la's ; heir Ito could prove by a table of price:: and wages, that vo shins (less ri otians of:mi.:lots obtained a larger qaantits of wheat. by the same ammeit of labour before the preseut Peru-laws came into operation, than to v do now. Rising from the working classes to their employers, it could be proved that timenfacs taros, were prevented by the tax 011 food from entering into isneeessful competition wilt foreign rivals. He knew it was said that the morm- facturers detsnaled mainly on the home, not on the foreigt.; detimed : it that were the case, the home consumer's power to purchase sholid be increased by em.bling hint to procure more .food for less ineeey, so that he might have more :messy to spare for other purposes. With respect to the thrums, he was prepared to hear it said, on one side, that Corn- laws were useessary to pro' et hint—on the other, that they ceased his ruin. For his own part, lie wished. that the whole ques:iesi could he decided with refereees ;o the Ymil'ore of the firmer. Tito lute went to the landowner as a eapitalist. iu a commercial :till price :it which lie obtain, a his to ad was regolated by the pre., ailed value prOthle?, coati W11;.!11 existed at the time. It was s.ti l that the flintier reouired pro:act:1m from ]goal eleirees but
these irges were known haforehand, and the farmer considered ;limn in hi.: ;SO..: of' rent. The amount of the pi:sr-rates, and tht espense of elk^ t t catths were inereassel bas ad,iimr to the price Of
• st 1 Veen .-r cared limb.. for these out!::oio'r',-1-1e (%,!:``lated th'a't in 1:i .s't'ar Of rent : it bad happened, however, lint be had not made sanicient oi:tetions for those oingoings, and hence the numerous com- plaints with whiell the House had been essailed by distressed temoos. Within twenty yeaa•s. five committees llad sat upon tehat was called
" unparalleled agricultural distress." Now, he wished the farmer would consider whether the delusive promise hold out by the Corn-
laws had oe, oeisisioned his ruin—whether he had not been tantalized by the Imo.• ihm they would keep grain at a remunerating price ? The period be!esean 7;:f to 1;92, when there was only a nominal duty of sixpenee :t Iptarter iso foreign wheat, was one of little fluctuation and general vs:sperity to the farmer. But passin;s front individuals and cdas,es, how is the emonmeity at large atfact(s1 ?--that is the serious consider:elms The lowest amount or loss to the emnroueity by the Corn-lows had beta estimated at ten mill:hies mutually. Now that was e•otal to a poll-tax of ss. or 2/. to each family, upon the lowest calcula- tion of the reward of labour. Aseototing that au operative worked ten hours a day, it would lie found tltat ihree-quarters of an hour daily out of the ten were devoted to payment of charges occasioned by Corn- laws. The cost of maintaining the poor wits augmented to the extent of 4,000/. a week by the eimminents which mule bread dear, and which at the same time created paupers. The cost of maintaining schools, hospitals, and other similar establishments, of provisioning ships, main- taming the Amity and Navy, and carrying on a great variety of neces-
sary occupations, was augmented by the artificial dearness of provisions. Once remove the ('urn-laws, and the increased consumption of many taxed articles would enable Government to reduce the duties on many others which were now heavily burdened. It was frequently said that the politic credit of this country could only be supported by continuing the Corn-laws ; but how could the interest of the Debt be paid without the twenty millions of Customs, and what would become of the Customs but for the export of manufactures?
Ile would next advert to the influences which opposed the repeal of the Corn-laws. It was the almost universal belief that those laws were maintained solely by, and for the advantage of, the landowners, who possessed uncontrolled authority in the Legislature. It was also said, that had not the working classes been more anxious at present about the shadow then the seta:stance, the House would now be legislating under the degrading influence of fear. ']'here was to() ninch truth in these observations. Now lie would tell the landowners, that there was
110 danger to their interest in cl:ng justice to the people, but much
danger ill withholding it. 'limy ought at least to declare distinctly their reasons for retaining those laws by which it was alleged the com- munity at hinge was deeply irjitred. Ile knew it was said that they had a right to the protection in esesoptence of an undue portion of local taxation being imposed. upon ; but he reeolleeted that Sir Robert
Peel warned the landowners who pressed for a repeal of the 'Malt-tax, that if that tax were abolished, the abolition of the Corn-lasys would be pressed upon Parliament with irresistible force; the clear inference
being, that the contiouanee of the 'tots-tax alone jostilisrl the main- tenaaee of the Coin-laws. N W, lie shotdd like to know in what way the .,\Ialt-tax, which fan- millions and a hell', iiiilomoified the puilic for the immease loss they sustained by the Corn-laws? 'J'o indemnify the Imelowner for the tax on home-geown barley, the simple :Mid V.) tax foreign barley, not Mreign wheat, by which
bread. was 10!,!1- dear, and the unrolls or purch,,ing barley reduced. Ile w^e- tai :'r. l:.iwc,er, 10 Plat' a bargain, toil abandon the Ittlt-
tax---'hie four and a half' would s,wn be made up—in return for t'se of the Coro-laws. But if the agricultural interest wool.: see :see pt these terias, what others. would they offer? To make
010 ,t CURT colopmiset1m, eollIllintatilln of taxes.
good a coltipems:01mi. 1;roorof loss must Ile giveo . and if it were
saiJ that woultl arise from land g-oine: nut. of 14116V:6011, lie would
;t:ree to pureliese every acre of such lan(1 tier the public, and inaislei•i tie. people wIt, lived upon it-11) return for the abolition Of the I o.ou!..1, he thought, be dainserous for the landowners
to 111,1!;ik'y as to ill:, tlegrce of taxation borne by different : In then their eass.ps:mis from taxation \votati be pronlinemly beau rho '.afore the public. Far instanee, sloes. the commencement of the Pseliste 01111 :leo:sissy Duties. fifty titillioes Lad 'aeon paid mit of persem:I propeisy, itatl tilt one singing out of landed propmey. Other
exe:,P,:tioas immonted thirt-en ittiIlions Inoue. 'nue a'.so sufferea Sy restrim ions oo the imp:Nation of aeinial food, imposed for the es:elesive lseit 'it oil Leidowaers. All these metiers would he taken
it to coesitlerm ion, t'imld it be supposed that th svould sub- mit to the eomilloanee of the ('oriolows, oil: delleoled by such argil- imams lie had milt ed ? could not 111,., ditellords discern signs of the thims, which slimild make them pans:, lit fore they determined to main- t.. by 11K. industry, emomerce, foulligence, and
nilefeees tlie einnory ; which they could not, beyond a limited thee, expert to retsiti S--
t'an they blind tlie•astves to the fact, that the peon;,:. tote :a:iv are demanding: the repeal of these laws. are thus:: who have hitherto placed confi-
dence it; the I,:gisiature. and have relh:d on its ad.alttacy to redress
tyruu air.' 1.■•5Wlil CAW it he they 0.'0 tar weal: ill
pur-
pa,• and meet: in Pniu,l, that they Will sit thoW11 11110..1' Plitt reht111.? or that th-y: wilt he diverted from the ohrimis reflection Butt they
Imre mil:laced emir this !loose? or that, in Of their
opinion and undo' a so:N-. of ,,coie•, they will not call for Chltige,, in the constitution which will plies it more in unisoo with Biel:- ii•sesets? Sorely, then, it is a matter of s .rooms com :eh:ration for the Is; iLovaers to determiuG whether they will, for the paltry profit which hit sv la.,s till a4hid them, for• fait the respaet and esteam of larg,, classes of their fellow subjects, :Ind place in jeopardy that great social and station tallith, though accident had con- ferred it upon them, it would Iis their power by their Cln),111Ct to enufirm.
And if they skould after al! that has bill said on this
subject—otter ;111 the imp:Haat ;:e:nee, o1;:ell bare beet: traced to this lea—now to r. fuse to take it into that tlwy will la: taking a
step this import:oo ael rasp of sloth they cannot appreciate."
:o.s. waling Pm imitosi, tliat twenty- three year' ;on, be hal is:.m.:al to joie with It; frimiils awl neighbours is liolsteri op' tip a iwriouct: proved, had been moat I:jai:it:us to the cnnotry. lie coM"ntled, that wlmlt.ver Cheelied tirinut;wittritig and eo111.1ereial seas lalric,..! to; gri- cultue; and the s...verc ni'il oC multitudes of farmers,
showed h:rn-hiws had The s: stem which raised
rents by taxing the lemal of tha stout eruel---was morally
%%Twig; slot eohmosli los 50:15 aWsire uf in the present
artificial st:ite ,ocietv, of at oeis• i sro leelas. it trade, yet he could too sec :toy 1•0:0011 or j0,tioe in to t:Ikt into cor):i(lonition the petitions Or thoS: who (2.00111,1 ie.1 of griero:t.: injury front the Corn- laws.
Mr. CAN't.t.V that .,.•1 t.) I?) nc the Tee°, which the opponents of those laws laid to their charge. Mr. Cayley admitted, that the foreign trade of the country was a valuable adjunct, while it remained inuoxious to the other interests of the community; but, he said- " I will notc.onsent to place the whole employment of my countrymen on so insecure and treacherous a base as that of aforeign trade, daily, we are told, slipping from under our feet, and hourly at the mercy of the caprice, the termini, the necesdty of other powers. And who are the advisers of u policy like this? Those who declare they owe no allegiance to this soil. From the list of their moral obligations they do, indeed, seem to have excluded grati- tude ; having been nurtured, fostered, even fondled into existence, at many a temporary sacrifice of those on whom they would now turn again to rend them. Owe no allegiance to the soil "Then, Sir, fitr, tier distant, ay, and cursed be the day, when they and their schemes shall preponderate in our councils— schemes which Iroultr place the welthre awl happiness or our people on a foun- dation, to-day expanded to a world, to -merest concentrated to a point ; re- deicing us to the comlition of a pyramid. inverted on its apex—vibrating, reel- ing, tottering to our ; ni11t no stability for our institutions—no protection for our poor. No! give me the broad lands of England and Ireland on which to rest the solid and hosting fabric of our national greatues. Hold we and abide we by them N.110 hold and abide by us, rather then by those who boast of their pewee to fly from us—who are the tenants of a day, and have no interest in the inheritance.' Yes, Sir, the land and the labour of our country have thriven weedier fa many a good long day, and with God's bless- ing they will yet; yielding to us the sztme symbols and the same fruits which they lane 11..1 et ..!ien ,leselened—a. Lepey, grateful, contented peasantry —a joyetts, open-hearted yeenettil•y—a littera! and hospitable gentry; each in their place and degree, and throttAlt the wiA, romifications of society and in- dustry to which their inthenicc ex tende 1, iliTensing vnice am! gond-will to all around them; awl forming, in the close identity of interest oii chi they ex- hibited, and in the high honour and devetion of character \dilch they dis- played, the noblest and strengest bulwark ea.:till:it eNternal invasion or internal oppression that ever ex.1.ited in any age or any country."
• Mr. l'ouLErr TitomsoN was always opinion, that his friends, who, so much to their credit, had begun aeitation on this subject, injured their cause by narrowing their grimed. He wished to argue the ques- tion on the broad prinei tile that the Ce-rnslaws injured the community at large ; an•l be rejoiced that it had been Mann:lit liewrard in its present shape. Ile bad not beard Mr. Villiers state his intention of pressing entire abolition of the Corn-Jews, and he was not himself prepared to go that length : he sleethl vote for going into Committee, with the view
of making such alter:: t.s w, hl benefit all parties and injure none. Mr. Thomson then spelled hims.lf to a demonstration, by numerous returns of prices, and recorded c eoplaints of the agriculturists, that the existing laws hod not worked well nir the landed interest, inasmuch as
they had fail•al in producing e s of price. '1 liter they had de- stroyed a large amount of flereign trade. and raised np competition abroad, was notorious. He ',yea col:staidly receiving communications front foreign countries re the effete., that it was almost useless to attempt to obtain a relexmiim t' the prohibitory system of other nations, as long as the British Legislature maintained the Corn-laws. lie con- tended that the exclusive meatien of which the landowners complained, was very slight, if it existed at P. Sir Robert Peel had himself ad- mitted that the Malt-tax a di:vie the censtotter, and was only a griev- ance to the iambi-in •r Ike-mm.11 as it ihtafured with the distribution of crops. He referae te :he imeensed demand for wool, caused by throw- ing open the trade in that article, as proof that it by no means followed as a matter of course :lett reduction of the dety on grain would lessen the demand for or redeee the priest of henteerown wheat lie ridiculed the idea of danger to this country from dependence on other nations for a supply of wheat. .1st present, indeed, tbreigners looked upon the occasional British demand as a nuisance : it raised prices and deranged their own calculations : but the ease would be diftbrent were a regular and profitaide trade carried on in grain. Ile only asked Members to go into C'ommitttn and take these things into consideration, and not
reject a nee i. Css stteee:s of which, he believed in his conscience, the prosperity of the country depended.
Sir EDWARD Ft seTesthem, expressed his astonishment that a Minister of the Crown should have declared himself favourable to agi- tation. He had certainty expected, that when n Cabinet Minister ad- dressed the House, instead of giving utterance to such doctrines, he -would have stated the course which Government intended to take on the question. That was what Mr. Canning had done, and why was not his honourable conduct hni7ated? Bet Mr. Thomson only said—" Let us go into Committee, awl then we shall see what we shall do." For his own part, lie firm ladieved, with -fir. 11 uskisson, that ^ a steady home supply is tie: only safe foundation of steady and moderate prices." By the Corn-laws, this safe Inundation was secured ; and he would not consent to reing,,..e of meddle with then].
On Sir WILLLAM YIOLE,W.,RTIC:i motion, the debate was adjourned ; and the House rt.s.: at half-past two.
On Wednesday, the Order of the Day for resuming the dc-bate having been read from tie chair,
Sir WILLIAM 3rohessaeserti suldrassed the House. He called atten- tion to several p tints which feel not been discussed, or only slightly al- luded to in the 'esent or pre rieas discussion,: on the Corn-laws. Full is. 1».4., ,,au co,,,,r;.,ac, Z.—Low profits occasion general uneasi- ness. (Chows f 1141; looghtr.) Small capitalists find it dittiettlt, with th,ir tatnictst e aerthas, to realize such returns as will enable them to PluiLlaill ±t n-Thly DiAl'eSS among such perSOOS is in- tense, and numb.., ome eapeelally of the small limners, whole generations of ell aid converted into agricultural la- bourers. It r•,,ty ov.I.,rs of very large capitals who can well maintain themselves on the !l t • of their enormous capitals, and the difficulty they find in eaduiliing nrefitahle investment has induced them to enter into occupations which belotge:l exclusively to small capitalists; for instance, into
the retail trade, n here the most skilful arrangements, by the nw.,t compre-
hensive, as well tl. :.,:t minute di% ision of employment*, by carefully watching the h si a6 t., p;trtloo,e at a favourable opportunity, and by other moans hi Into pow, r of the passe sere of large capaids, they are able to undersell the ..;11.11 detler, mai to dispose of their go;ie at a price se low as to ruin the cmopeti td.e do not enjoy the same advantages. It is this fierce cotrip.tition, for profits, however small, which explains a fact that seems awn the Mereitstd investment of capital, and the establishment of fr t v omit mills in several branches of industry, whieln accordiet: to 1O111;e1:,A, have erased to be profitable. Wh.tu, how - ever, the subject is earefolly ex 11111NA it will he seen that the circum- stances arc taking p' ..c it. coo: as in that of the retail desnrs ; that large capitalists are availing themselves of the superiority which the masses-of their capital give them to effect such small savings as enable them to uedersea their competitors; and at the same time to realize a trilling profit. Inks manner the doctrine that the 'Corn-law, 'by confining continually increasing capital within a limited field of investment, occasions low profits by mamma
competition, is supported by facts which have- been adduced as proof that the
Corn-law hums no usturious consequences. That doctrine, I say, is supported by the vast and constant increase of manufacturing capital in the shape of
mills and machinery. Competition is so great, and profits are so low, justlie.
cause of the great increase of capital within a limited field of investment, whist increase of capital some persons would urge as a proof that the Corn-law hot not retarded the prosperity of the nation. I admit that the Corn-law hosed prevented the increase of capital ; but I attribute low profits and all the atilt attemlant thereon, to restrictions on the means of investing this continually
increasing capital. Of these restrictions the first and most mischievous is the
Corn-law. This restriction is so injurious, chiefly because the capital isso great. It follows that the pro Corn-law argument, which is founded on the
increase of capital, may be good for nothing, and may even be used as coned the most fothible arguments against a Corn-law on account of its produeius "an overgrown capital," "a great superfluity of money," and " severe com- petition."
Coalition of the British labourer fouler Corn-laws,—" The most important question fur the labourer is not the money value of his wages, lee the red value of his wages ; can in other wordy, the number and nature of the thins; that be can buy with his wages. That is the consideration upon which al happiness depends. The labourer may be said to be well MT when, with a mo. derate degree of labour, lie is well fed, well clothed, and well lodged, nai7riittiliyJr:e: still remained a surplus both of his time and of his earnings to be espendel fu amusement and recreation. Such, Sir, is not the state of tlu British labourers. With an immoderate degree of toil they are frequently Drily Ole to obtain just food enough to appease theircraving appeti doing, their whole time and enereies are expended. This arises from the high rive of foal. Open our ports, Huts diminish the price of fond, and in proportion to the fall in the price offend the real value of the stages of labour will increase, and the labourer Will be comparative] v well off. Some persons contend that with a repeal of the Corn-laws there would be a cousiderablo iliminutimi in aerieul- tend employments, in consequence of which many agricultural labourers will become manufacturing labourers. Then, they say, flee will lie a great in- crease in the supply M labour to the manufacturers, wEicii w ill cm: ,e c Gdl in wages. I must first observe, with regaial to this supposition, that unt: the 111:1 Jta wz1,es be greater than the bill in-the prices of loud, the real wages of the labourer Oill lie and he Will, at tlE! Worst, same as he was before. But I am convinced that there will b.: tin tidl in money wages be a repeal of the Corn-laws, both for time reasons 1 have already stated, and likewise of account of the incseaae of employment which must Let:us:oily arise in consequence of the increase in the exports of our manuntctures to pay for the food we slmuld import." Advantages pttsFesie,T by the British baulowners.—" TIM Corn-law gives to the possessors of the soil it larger share of the wealth of this community than is naturally due to them ; it gives to them a monopoly of that article which tin rest of the community must purchase, whatever be its price. The owner of British land has enormous advantages over the forei,,:n producer ; first, lie re- sides in the ' mediate vicinity of the best markets in tun WOrl !, those of tick densely-peopled cottutry—a consideration of the utmost importance with regard to so bulky a commodity as food ; secondly, he can obtain at a low rate of interest any capital fur the purpose of improving his land and cultivating it in the bet possible manner ; and lastly, his pnainc:ions are of a kind for which there is and ever will he a steady and pressing demand, for nothing is more absurd than to suppose that any very eon:lb:table portion of the fecal of this country ran he unportal. Nut content with these natant! advautoges, which must at all tittles make the landowners the most powerful class, they have availed themselves of political power in order to grasp ail endue share of the we:0th of the country. For whom do our maindaeturen toil early and late? Mr whom do they compel their untiolunme children to work even in their tendert st year;? ibr whom do our metchants cover the seas with their fleets ? for whom do they collect from every portint of the globe the luxuries of evert: clime ?—For the owners of the sell—for :11 oe who, 1103- Svill; the monopoly of Real, CAII ntul do compel all others to minister 11 their wants. TlaS rt is that causes this country so freqtteutty to odor the spectacle of the two extremes of splendid wealtli and abject •.ry ; a cow tract inconsistent with any considerable degree of social welibuin Mr. CHRISTOPHER followed Sir William Molesworth. He dwelt upon the unfairness of the demand for a Committee on ihe elorn-laws- the farmer's protection—when Mr. Villiers should have tetived for a Committee to consider the propriety of repealing all restrictive duties whatsoever. lie contended that the agriculturist needed protection snore than the manufacturer ; and read a table which sitowed, that under the four-course system of cultivation, the farmer's atinuttl profit was only 5s. ed. per acre, after payinl,, rent at a guinea an acre, and other outgoings. [While Mr. Christopher was speaking, natty Member: left the House, the usual dinner-hour having arrived, end the attendance became very thin.]
Mr. GROTE showed, by reference ti undisputed returns of prices, that the Corn-laws had not benefited the landowner and .ormer to the extent or in the maner it was pretended they had, while they injured other classes and the community it large in a variety of ways.
Infuryfroin Coru-laws to the labourers and artisans.—" The price. of where in December 1635 was 36s.; in Hermetic!. 15;3 it was 76$. Lvt ■o•atlemea any artisan in this metropolis, whether tits variation in his a .Igee has h•ta such as to enable him to command as much of the neces6aries end cmnti rh of life in tire first of these periods as list? This is it question simply of matter of fact ; and I rejoice that it len- been distinctly put in issue in the pre- sent debate. Our speeehea ire this Ilona: tend be read by artisans and journey- men, and will be discussed at their Varif;11,4 meetings. The honourable Member for Yorkshire truly last night, that on this point the labourer's experience was worth mere tiller any theory ; and I shall be quite content to leave it to the judgment of any artisan or labourer who afar read these de- bates, whether his condition was better in December le:le, When the price of wheat was 78s., than in Dieember 1535, when the price of wheat was tais. per quarter. This is a puha which every artisan and every labourer will be able to determine by nu an.3 of his Mill fiylinp and his own recollection ; and it will then he seen Is ltich of the parties Is rant teetirately intimeed of the real con- dition of the operative chases. Bo, Sir, it' 1 should Mr at moment admit that the wages of artisans and journeymen have increased to such an extent as to make the artisan as well off in beeember 13:38 as he was in December 1835, at whose expense must this variation have taken place ? At the expense of hit employer. And out oh' what fund is the employer to be compensated ? ile can neither claim nor obtain any compensation whatever. you will, the hardship must somewhere-111M 0110 orlo‘atkheerit ‘t\ett.);) parties—either upon the artisan, if .,-ca.es do not rise, or upon the employer, if they do rise. The rise of 'the loaf from 74. to 101/, lashing at the lar..! proportion Or an ati:atilS illi!elne which is spent in bread, must abridge the comforts of himself and his family to a material and ells- wooing extent—to an extent which would appear to every gentleman present aoupportably calamitous, if we were to enlarge the figures representing in- creased cost to the dimensions requisite for adapting them to the higher in- comes. And this is a comparison which is but too apt to escape our notice, from the small proportion of an opulent man's expenditure which is devoted to the purchase of the actual necessaries of life." Are dear or cheap things best for labourers?—" If we inspect the table of the cages of various descriptions of labourers and artisans given by Mr. Porter, in
page 252 of the second volume of his work, for the period. between 1800 and
18ne, we shall find that the theory of the better condition of the labourer when bread is dear is totally opposed to the facts of the case. I lay the greatest
stress on the question of the Corn-laws as it bears upon the wellheing of the labouring classes. I do so, because I consider this beyond all comparison the most interesting point of view in Ivhich the question can he looked at. I am quite content to meet the right honourable baronet the Member tbr Tainworth, and to argue this as a labourer's question. I desire no better than to have it determined upon a review of the condition of the working people generally, during a high price and a low price of bread. Out of the 15,000,000 quarters
of wheat consumed in this country, by far the .greater portion is consumed by the Elbowing classes; and it will require an nwenttity surpassing even that which is possessed by the right honourable Menilter .14 Tantworth to demon- strate that they, the chief consumers, are better fed and more comfortable when they have to pay Is. for their loaf than when they can purchase it the tit. Be-
sides, let me ask, is it intended to apply this same doctrine to the other articles
which the working Man consumes ? is it alleged that the labourer is better olf when fuel is dear, when clothing is dear, when soap, candles, tea, or sugar are
selling at a high price? ' Would it be a good thing for the labourer if woollen
stuffs were as dear now as they were a century ago, and if soap were subject to as high a duty as it was during the last war.? if dear corn he so very good
a thing, why do agricultural gentlemen complain so much of the dearness of
malt and beer arising out of the Malt-tax ? I believe we have not yet dis- continued the old and primeval feeling of gratitude and soti,titetion when our
harvest is cbnudant, and mournful anxiety when it proves aefect ire ; but if the doctrine contended for by the Member tier Yorkshire were just, that the general lady of ]boaters are worse off and less comfortable when the prlits of corn is low, most certainly an abundant harvest would be a uatienal misfortune ; tlic mere urokillul our husbandry, upon this supposition, the better would it be t'cr the country."
tongement of the rorreneg.—" There is another evil of serious meanitude which arises nut Of the Corn-laws, and which lam the Inure anxious not to omit, as it obtrudes itself foreilay on the attention 01'01 commercial men. I allude to the periodical derangement which the Corn-laws occasion in our monetary system. The effect of our present Corn-laws is to interdict any regular and steady import of corn, and to leave us in seasons of ordinary productiveness with a very low stork of corn nt the moment of harvest ; so that when our harvest falls short, we become large and extensive purchaeera at extravagant Fives. These purchases are certain to produce a powerful effect upon the ex- changes, and to cause a great and continued ex.eort of the preehms metals. Such it disturbance cannot take place without being seriously felt throughout all the trading classes in the commueity, who find themselves crampod and restrieted in their ordinary sphere of borrowing, by the neces.iity imposed upon the Bank of England and other bankers, of adjusting their lualls so as to meet this sudden drain (tom abroad. Let me imprest mon tio Mouse, that this is in itself an inconvenience of no light magnit ode, pre,dag upon the trotting community at large—upon the prudent as well as upon the imprudent, But it in an inconvenience! which might well he aggravated into a fearful national calamity, if the drain fur lia'Cign corn should wise at a moment when other circumstances are of themselves battling to produce a drain upon the rati...r3 of the Bunt:. If, for example, we had experienced the misfortune of a bail harveFt. in 1823, so that the drain upon the Bank, which was at that time going on. leal been aggravated by tunblen importations of corn Boren abroad, it is very ceitain that the difficultiesef the Batik most have become all but instil.- mountable. And it' we refer Lack to a period still more recent—to the com-
mercial embarrassments which marked the close of the year very sore, if we had had a bad harvest in that year, and if the Bank of England Inol hail to contend with the additional difficulty of a large export of gold arising from this specific cause, that the pressure upon our money marlsot, and spin the trailing interests generally, would have been most severe and ca,:enitous.
It has so- happened hitherto, o. 1.1l that. Lemand hut gold in payment the hirge imports of corn has not coincided in point of time with other causes of drain Upon the Bank of England. I hope most sincerely that no such coincidence will take place ; but we have no right to presume that it will not ; and if un- fiwttomtely it should take place, gentlemen must make up their minds, that not only will the state of trade be,:nine must calandtuas and distressing, but the (Leger to the Bank of England itself will be extreme. I entreat the House to keep this consideration carefully in mind, in weighing the general bearings of the Corn-laws: it will he too bite to take precautions when the moment of pressure actually arrives."
The others speakers were the Earl of DAnt.iNtrrox and Mr. Wono- norste against the motion, Mr. CLAY" and Lord Howler: hi support of it. We cannot find any argnments or statements with which the reader of the fiweaoing speeches is not familiar, The House }weenie very noisy and inattentive, especially flintilyg the delivery of Lord Howiek's long speech. The noble lord repeatedly ropiested attentiou,but in vain. Ile particularly alluded to Mr. Cecil Forester, who was talking with other Members at the bar: but Mr. FottosTon said he was not loud in his remarks. Lord flowrcie wan sure Mr. Forester did not Wend to
interrupt him, Mr. Footetarent asked the Speaker, wheiln:T Lord Howick's pointed allusion to him was in order ; but the Speaker did not interffire. Sir Robert Peel left the !louse while Lord Howick was speaking, followed by Sir George Clerk and many other 3lembers.
The debate was adjourned on Lord WoRSI.EY's motion, and the !louse rose soon after one o'clock.
Lord Woosaos spoke first on Thursday. lie assured the House, that in voting against Mr. Villiers, he truly represented the wishes and opinions of his constituents : they went along with Moo not only in opposiug a total repeal of the Corn-laws, but also the substitution of a fixed duty for the present graduated scale. It was true that many farmers preferred a fixed ditty, but Inc never heard of one who would be satisfied with less than 20s. a quarter duty ; and what chance had they of obtaining that ?
Sir HUSSEY VivIAN believed that a change in the present law would benefit both manufacturers and agriculturists ; he would therefore sup- port the motion for a Committee. It had been said that front the ranks of the labourers our armies were recruited during the last war, and that it was unjust in time of peace to reduce them to the condition of ope- ratives in manufacturing towns : now on this point he might be sup- posed to know something, and he could assure the House, that the Manufacturers took their full share in the toils of the British Army, in- • f. be-
(dm 1,uple :t- most I,•,I
1.1... %II his !dford,, • 11,,,. He is v. ill • 1••:, due, though l,rlion.
'-1 carted neighbour, himself' and his tinnily
7,110 then lived and they
• ' ■s: passed
I•• i
cw:••idt rattle ..t time I .1,.:,ti• part- ner, who bad the whole of the day a Ar....,g; .:.; t :it 11,sr
breast, :and which had shown itself mi.. t". -71 re ual. oW:og to having no allow. fund direct if t!,•• he fretontittly entreated her to remove the let CIL 0.01. 1,..• I +ale haring (1,‘sigliatol 14,4 t.11,111 3 111'10' slumber. he inquired how she felt herself, and foun I !lot she had O.inted : he immediately :twee, took the meal-Lag, turned it oaf, '-hook it over t table ; the few grains detached therefrom Ia. 1. :mute ,:f them a bow-I of water-gruel and with this, he really belie, ed, her in.,- had lkell preserved. How many were present at some ball or ore •itt evade. the exp,ms.. of admission to which would have victualled his little facile a tit.ottlt or snore? But how little do such men, although deriving the ci hide of the :abundance they enjoy, care or feel for that condition which their own pride or avarice bath alone created."
Now, continued Mr. Ward, if the wealthy aristocracy of England maintained that laws, which produced such a state of things, were ne- cessary for their support. in what position did they place themselves ? In the same position as the ulel French aristocracy—
And where was that nobility now ? There was au end of their career and their exactions. He believed that there was great truth in the remarks of an historian, who, he believed, he might say belonged to the other side of the and were no less effective in maintaining the military honour and glory of the country than the agricultural labourers.
Mr. EMERSON TENNENT asked attention to the state of agriculture in Ireland. He ascribed the recent improvements there to the protection
afforded by the Corn-laws, which secured Irish landowners and farmers an opening for the sale of wheat in the British market. England was much benefited by the supplies from Ireland, which rendered her almost entirely independent of the foreign grower.
When Mr. Tennent sat down, nearly every Member in the very thin House rose to address the Chair. The Speaker pointed to
Sir HENRY PARNELL; who, in a very low and indistinct tone, sup- ported the motion. He especially dwelt upon the relative prices of
British and foreign wheat, with a view to show that free trade would not materially depress prices in England. It was a gross error to sup- pose that either farmers or labourers, or any class but the landowners, were benefited by the Corn-laws. He also utterly denied that an undue share of the burden of taxation fell upon the landed interest.
Lord Mat naToxf; hoped, that on this occasion every Member would he allowed to say all lie lied to say : so that the subject might be ex- hausted, and the tow ion settled. I !Weed. he had thought that the ques-
tion had been settled for twenty y..w7s Yote of last session. when there was a majority of '10 fast !'.vet pre:sitnt Corn-lows. He wished to know why Ministers nm,le the yiestion open,"—if indeed it could be called " open," whim every meeehee of the Government in that 1-louse would probably support Mr. Villie:s. lie hoped that there would
some ha a Government would it together On this as on other subjects.
Mr. WAR]) said, that Lord 3Ialdstone's speech would go far towards convincing the comm.; that the Coen-law question was tried before a packed jury, resolved to edecide it upon a tbreame eonelusion. His own opinions this sobject had unde7g-one a co:nplete chr.na.e. After the deepest consideeat hm, he bad formed the de,:ided opinion that it was to manufietziving industry that 1,:n !,-.-.eners mainly owed their prosperity. Tiro rent in this cOlt:tiry AvaS so mneit hooter than in others, :woo? em ti rely In was therefore suicidal in the landowner to injulo inootiiietto.es otel cow:tierce. But by the opera-
thin of the Corn-lows...--eciell voe, ist severely folt in Sheffield, where there was little- noteIlita-ey, oielos were produced by ma-
nual labour.—access to ■% t,mstantly becoming more difficult. 11-bile Cool-laws eecei! injori- -oe to other classes, Mr.
Ward said ie could 1-.• l ruse-1 th. ni.tti:i,ta would not be detri-
mental to tile Itiod,•-1 iaterest ; Iota a dotailed :statement
of prices eo, t s to this country, to show
that no very' -7, • -rii-;ed into -England. He reminded thel.m.1•■••• 1.• r zil 11.t.•y possos.;ed over the foreign grower. 1111,1,' emiured by the labouring1;,„ the Pt.or-law and the
Corn-law, and ..1 1:1•.• . to rely upon their oe r lie cote idered. the
two laws iteconie.tiIdo. A lee-a. wine]: town Lord
Stanley appeeledto ilInstrfa' e te, described
the wretched contliiii in of he/
would react extract '.Tuna it to the
.1‘opulation ; and he
" Tito edfeet of the- .i.,ruts
comere-alLy fonci. ,1 tliar
nLunt he :11'01111.;
111111.1111d he I. ,
oti,ers ‘rint, ::intiliat I •
di±i,,a from
1
the ciuortli.c., rl • kind of work, friend,. in the-, L111 found freqiielit , piece of cloth which 1,, i of throe, fottr. in. live 1-1,
IvItich lie is ashamed . and the greater part io171' litingry to COu.m.311.1.• • •.!
The writer him,. I..sa I. 1, 7 i.,, any'Ilai food wt V,1 :Oa
bo olditilied. litre oecasimially the seoips 1 1'. who had a knoe le of f.
taineel. But Oa: net :1 I. ! : , e n
Ivere thus toilert iinate ;1“:1..Itio:,■:,1 the stole, big wa, 'a Toe, with hire, to t his v, , ,,f ' Aveut to rest tie:, ei;ht atvity, and still had to ii:u ta' . once t and ail the sehi Ines o 1' . t1 which thiy i-,m1,1 to it ha 11, '•, :
length time previous. 'Zoe describable, not so touch f his on it
llouse, in ..raking of the condition of the working classes before the French Revolution, which every one knew was distinguished by such fearful excesses. The writer he referred to said—" What is the constitution to them (the people) but bread to eat ? Fancy five millions of gaunt figures starting up to ask their upper classes, after lung unreviewed centuries, virtually this question-4 How have ye treated us? Ilow have ye taught us, and fed us, and led us, while we toiled for you ?' The answer can be read in flames on the nightly summer sky. This is the feeding and leading we have bad of you—mimetic:se of stomach, of pocket, of head, and of heart I Did ye mink anionget your rights of mamthat man seas nut to die of hunger while there was bread reaped by him ? It is amongst the mights of man; and so will ye find it. Such an arraugement must end ; hut, oh! most fearful is such an ending! Let those to whom God, in his mercy, has granted time and space, prepare another, and a milder one, before it be No late!"
Such were the words of Mr. Carlyle; and M. Ward was deliberately of opinion that there was a stylising similarity between portions of the English landowners and of the Prenell aristocracy wader the old rgite- lle could not look without deep alarm at the consequences of a perseverance in the present system. Ile did field: that the connexion between it nod the sutTerill,.S 1111411 tilt w,ai.ing clase:s endured could he clearly, palpably, and distinctly trac.il ifs own means tie :nthc-istenee depended wholly on land;
yet they would talk of his heitig. :mil of his pandering to minter
passions. II • woele, rest supprt of th, Oil a principle of self-pee- servatiem and alien on n it:hie:pie of jostle.. ; and it' the House crone to the de- cishm to which they (n eat to come, to Nvb.,I1 a regard for their own character and the it hat we n due to• the interests of the coronm:.icy would lead therm they would be acting on a priurij k not oidy °Oust:, c, but of common sense.
Sir JAME, CRA I1.1 ii wkwthl ...:::eta to the motion, because be did not believe it to he founded oa a prineiple just, necessary, or true. With 101m11 rcducuutcc and a stvoyen. settee Of his own Inability, he still felt it his duty to graeple with the queetiou. And first, he would call attention to the danger of legislating ou the subject iu tI ',time of scarcity, when inflainutation leas eueatest- If ,vat fed ;in illostiation of the dangerous spirit likely to he prevalent at such a 1i:on, r .rer to the speech of tho himourahle *genii...1;1,111 Who had just Sat Iltra to the topic, with which he hail concluded- ( 0141,S;IiI,11 I rings of a hinid-;,,.,in wtaver at Prebt011. Wilt% it nits quite notorious Clint eirctinistonces of the Rand-loom Waletrti were leee'liera Ire hod COMpionA 16111 with the s:! withm of the population of France heron: the French lieveett ion, and to the m,i,ilitc of the same period he had de- 1,:nerately compared tlk: al'istOCIIWy of England. ( b./ Cheers. on the Onlo-
s:tUat beaches.) Stall was ;ha nature of the topics used at such a
time. It is true that the price of provisions was It Wa,■ a mistbrtune: les admitted it. But was it within the cold rel oC the landlords? was it within the cowed of the Legislature? Thant was the tra,.-:tioa, anti to that eahject he meant to addrese his rent:arks.
Langeoge similar to Mr. Ward's had fe"lase Lena Mr. l',"arburton and ;1r. (ley ; whin steil that nothing could be got front the landlords except by preseens 1'am! y. ithout—unless their fears were acted on— Now, honomehle wl,) contended far a free trade in corn might &mailmen the lee hells ler eshisleass tit y mieet held them up to public
exeeretien eine, -.tad ; Out- rc'sfird Om as blind or as
stolid es tee men v fed; I.. or this ,dr.,kinc,
trdth, E;:d Ili, of England. le!
ended Ili s %onion-nide tinily it nu s—tInit they were willing• to listen to r, osoe---t!lo! t:i.‘y would hearkeo to argin anent; and if it were p. .red to t hc1.■ th.kl 1'4,2 huPtel.s Which tainted hied were considerably eahlea d, he wit ftiese ties- at ouef he adding to cousi,kr a readjustment of the
duties on corn. 13;tt it iii ;c!vocates of free trii them to yield to
fear—(Lou,! )--110 011,400k 11154 ch,,r,ctur greatly if he 4101C11 it •.:■;,■;;L:lee that from Suit. ,s that, al they ought tort, so they never nor'd 1;,■■• as to Co...I:mg.:I: of this species of agi- tation, he would jiL-t rennoli, that it this cinillict were pushed to extremities, there might he son.... shalt as To abut would hecome of the present owners of the soil, but the teed is all relied a. Columerce, credit, 1101lting capital, were exeties, which tleurislad ie the sum:bine of natirond tranquillity ; and if a segete, sere oe to. s. coot etup'ated oit the other side, were pushed to ext rend- ties. 'the very ;want:tames which they sought to encourage would make to theinseleae eIng, arr.: to lauds ■vhi. re they might hope that twined liens, meant he lee-set:ea 71:10. deny and ill'or,rt; he secured.
Sir James adverted to the conduct of the Ministry on this question. To their policy the line of Panne was apelleable with an alteration,
" A mi,;hly :.sits, all Wi■laatt a plan. '
Ile could not divine w hat was their abject--whether they desired a fixed duty or not ; and his bewilderment was increased when he re- ferred to the declared opinions of Lord Melhourne on this subject. lesel Melbourne :eh], in July last, that the present duties worked well, and he would not tomtit th eiii what had occurred which rendered it expedient now to unsettle that which in July it was so desirable not to touch ? But it was the practice of Ministers to loosen and disturb every thinee—to v. ind up and seti is nothing. Sir James adverted to the statement that in Lord Grey's Cabinet the Core-laws were an open
question : this he distinctly denied. At great length he contended tient the real oleeet of the Corn-law It epettlers was to reduce prices, whichmust cno-e a redaction of wu_.t s, thereby diminishing the com- baste and degrodiug the cheraeter at' this labouring clauses, Ile argued that it was to, vain, to expect reetpreeity on the principle of free trade front the Continental nations. Experience prayed that the present lasts worked wail : even within the lest seven mouths, under those laws, two millions and a half of quarters of wheat had been imported. He adverted to the heavy char, es on lam', and the tax on malt, as a
justification of the protective duty on wheat. With respect to an opinion Ile heal declared twenty years ago in fitvour of a fixed duty, he must remind the I louse that it is as danTivered before experience of the excellent working of the present syetem had been obtained. One strung reason for opposing the ne elms, was his reluctance to aid in effecting a weed change iu tits b:,b;ts and occupations of agricultural labourer:, mid their fianilieee-
It was vas, 1. well to talk of the displacement of labour ; but lie begged, in conclusion, to observe that they could very ill estimate how much suffering and how much sorrow lay hid under the smooth surface of those gentle flowing. words: change of habits—of home—of manners—of nature—nay, oilife itself. What a change—more cruel than lie mule venture to describe, more cruel than the House (Amid think, would it be from " The breezy eat! of incen,...t,r,atiang thorn," to the sad sound of the factory-bell—from the rent thatched cottage, the blooming garden, and the village-given, to some dark garret, to some dank cellar in the nuisy alley of u crowded city—from the rural walk anal the inno- cent amusements of the rustic servant, to the debauchery, the temptation, the pestilence, and the sorrow of the city. Where were the moralists now--where the sentimental moralists? Talk not to hint any more of the cruelties of the conveyance of the Poles to the wintry wastes of Siberia—of the transportatioa of the Hill Coolies from Coromandel to the Mauritius; a change was contem- plated by some Members of that House far more cruel—far more heart-rending m the bosom of our native land; for the measure which was proposed that night was the first step in that direction. They wished to make En hued de. pendent on a foreign country and to distant lands for the production of its food; but they would not succeed in their attempt. If this were done, this would he the last country in the civilized world wheel he would wish to inhabit. He agreed wills the noble. Lord at the head of the Administration, that next to the evil consequences produced by change, the fear of its taking place was disad- vantageous; and therefure he could not hesitate in giving his decided 0ppo. Salon to this motion.
Lord Jon Bussrea. said, that often as the Corn-law question had been diseneeed in the House of Commons, he had never spoken upon it ; and he approached the subject with much diffidence. He now took an opposite view of the subject to that which he had expressed, in a letter to his constituents, of Huntingdon, in 1822. But he claimed with Sir James Graham the privilege of altering his opinion on further cense iteration; he also might, he presumed, be permitted to profit by Cape. rienee. Ile non' withdrew the opinions be conscientiously expressed to his constiteente in 1822. The time, he thought, had arrived when the question of admitting foreign corn ought to be taken into serious consideration by Parliament—unless the hope of amending a system, which had riot worked well, as he believed, for any class, was to be utterly precluded. lie thought the present a thvourableboiefeicicoisiottriepnili,itoey.f for coneeleriog than question. The landlords had received
from the l'oor-taw, Land though the late harvest had not
ductive as cooled halve been wished, the failure in the crops had only lanisa It:tale! ; and it was more prudent to tidies up the question under such circumstances than when the failure might be general. Admit- ting all that had been said by opponents of the motion, he saw no rea- eon wily the Ifoeee should refuse to go into Committee. Surely those Members who weee load in their complaints of the sufferings and poverty of agriculturists, ought not to reject the offer of amending laws, by which they, it appeared, were so little benefited. Lord John went over mach of the same ground as previous speakers in the debate; referring to the history of Corn-laws and prices at various periods, to prove that the agricultural interest were not gainers to the extent they inneeined by levying heavy duties on the importation of foreign corn. It was manifest than if the landowners determined to maintain the pre- sent scale of duties, they had resolved upon trying the experiment of fbediree on the same quantity of land, double the amount of' population which tornterly derived sulteietenee from it. Iris own opinion was in boleti• of a moderate fixed dui y. Lund John Russell defended the conduct of Government on this question. He referred to the policy of Tory Go- vernments ou the Catholic claims as a precedent for making the torn- laws an open question. In 1e27, Mr. Abercromby and Mr. Tierney entered Mr. Canning's (Satinet on the condition that Parliamentary Reform should be an open question. And, in spite of the assertions of the Duke of Richmond, Lord Ripon, Lord Brougham, and Sir James Graham, he maintained that in Earl Grey's Cabinet the question of the Corn-laws was "open."
When Lord John Russell sat down, Mr. Miteees rose to address the House ; but the cries ef " _Adjourn" and " Divide" were so loud that Ire could not proceed. The SPEAKER, in very sharp terms, called the House to order. Mr. Miteees resumed his speech ; but there was a rush of 31embers to the door ; the cries of adjournment were renewed; and finally, on Mr. Iluete's motions, the debate was again adjourned. The House rose at a quarter before one o'clock.
The House of Lords had a discussions of the Corn-laws ou Thursday. Many petitions pro and contra were presented. One by Lord Fin- WILLIAM, praying for an alteration of the present duties, bore 78,000 signatures. The Duke or RUTLAND, on presenting it petition iu favour of the Corn-laws. said it Walt signed by many agricultural lit'.ourers, one of whom he had himself asked whether he knew the purport of it : the labourer reeited, " It is to maintain the present law a' the Duke, how- ever, putt another question—" Why did you sign it, belonging as you do to a class said to he favourable to the repeal ?" the labourer said, " 1 thought the petition was to prevent a revolution !" Now, quoth the Duke of Rutland, he could not use any stronger argument than the la- bourer's ; fbr the repeal of the Corn-laws would inflict a severe blow on the aristocracy ; and the landowners and labourers would be plunged into an abyss of ruin together.
Lord II emou wished to know if the Duke of Rutland had asked the labourer, hone a repeal of the Corn-laws would produce a revolution?
The. Duke of R terteven said, he had not put that question, but he had put others : he asked the labourer, whether he thought if wheat went down to etts, it punter, be should receive 12.e. a week wages; and the labourer replied that he did not— lit also asked not only him, but six or seven other labourers who were pre- sent, what they thought their masters could grow wheat fits, and he fitirly and properly remunerated : he begged them to take time to consider the point : he would not tell them what Was his own opinion upon the subject, but said that lie wished to learn what was theirs, telling them that they had as nmeh right to have all opinion upon it as any one of their Lordships haul. After a little while, they replied, that they thoeyht their masters should have 3/, em quarter.
Lord Raoson asked if the labourers knew the fact, that Corn-laws had never kept up the price of wheat to 3/. a quarter?—To this ques- tion no reply was given.
Lord IleolesifeM entirely agreed with the Duke of Rutland in attach- ing importance to the opinions of agricultural labourers, but hoped he would agree that manutiteturing labourers ought also to be consulted on the Corn-laws and other questions ; and when he should bring before the House a subject on which, not six merely, but six or seven mil- lions agreed—the extension of the Reform Bill—he hoped due weight would be attached to their wishes and opinions.
The Duke of Ittemeteo concurred with Lord 'Brougham, that manu- facturing as well its agricultural labourers should be consulted; and he was happy to present to the House a petition against any alteration of the Corn-laws, front the important manufacturing borough of Leicester, bearing the signatures of 1,175 manufacturing labourers, 1,600 and odd shopkeepers, 71 master manufacturers and bankers, 118 gentry and clergy, and 307 other residents—the whole number of signatures being 3 osa ; and if Lord Brougham would go with him to Leicester, he could engage to take him to the residence of every man who had signed the petition. The Marquis of WILSTMEATII, 011 presenting a petition from the Grand Jury of Westmeath in favour of the Corn-laws, asked Earl fitzwilliam, whether he had considered what the effect of his propo- sition to alter these laws would be in Ireland? It would, he felt con- flared, tltrow five millions of persons, or the greater part of the popu- lation, out of employment and reduce them to ruin.
The Order Of the Day having been read, Earl FITZW1LLIAM rose, and said, he would answer Lord Westmeath's p •
wstion as well as he could; and he was not aware that he could. pre- face what be had to say better than by expressing his doubt whether that noble lord had formed a correct opinion of the effect an alteration of the Corn-laws would have upon the prosperity of Ireland. It was, however, neceesary to ascertain what was meant by " Ireland." If he meant the six or seven thousand persons who owned the fee of the soil, or the larger but not very numerous class of lessees, possibly Lord 1Vestmeath might be right in his view of the consequences upon " Ire- land" of altering the present law. It was just possible that the altera- tion might, for a short period, reduce rent of land in Ireland— Bat that it would have any bud elicit upon the cm[dition of the people of Ireland, he did not believe: on that point he entertained an opinion diametri- cally oppo:ed to that of the noble i'lfarquia—dinnetrically opposed to the eplifions of those ',rho said that the interests of ir,land were Orp■;,:j to the
[notion he was about to make; because if there were :my part of t pvula-
tian of the empire—if there were any clone any seethe: of society in :h. ted Kin line, wait teeny interested in havina the ;•.;.[..1, and wholeounc, and tHefol means of stthsistence, placed whhin Cie! raa,•11 (v.-111:11 pc,,s,.•:;; they had not)—it was the great mass of the poled:I-1,m it Ireland, The unite talktd of thrse being live lniiiiu ms of peoi[ly ag.,:":,1 iii agriculittre in In:kind: he could only say, that he wished I here \v,•re any thing like that nand;er of p:rson: emsa..::ad in any thing that rifiild la; called itgriculture iii that country. There hlight indeyl he five millio,o; of poHens, and more, who lived upon the hest in latield: awl who, so livinaiq ei the hod, pail :ill the sur- plus beyond I he sl:art rtiaus necessary to it wre[ei:ed existeacc to the landlords it' that country in the shape of rent. But to say that thera Were tiya 11111■1011- of masses engaged in any oecupation that could he dignified by the mune of '•1.116 to CO1111114 0110 Of the grOS.ri:1. i111s:ill:CS that 111011::1 c ■111.i fill hil■1; ;tild if any of their Lordships, 'rho wen. unacaittainted with Ireland, should run aavoy with tleit idea, and think it tin:: duty on that groand to resist the mali,[a heshould have the honour ([1. com:Isdin7. he could :ads say t kat y would, in his opinion, take a most crron,,.lis y:•,:v of the interints tir the wry. Sonmeli for saljeat \Odell CLItaini1 V.1■1:1■1 out natIltally have heen the ono with which he should have commenc,si; his address to their Lord:laps upon the eahject of the Corn-laws.
Ile proceeded to reemornend the suisiect to the earnest attention of the limes!. There were ansay connictieg °philters upon it, and it was natural that their ieirdships' opinion should be Liasstal in favour of the Cora-laws ; but he called upon them ii to sepaitate chaff' from wheat—to ascertain what °pillions had a solid tbundation, anti. rejecting all others, act upon them. l to thought he could show by reference to theta and
the km 1IlV 011(.; io of the 1:Urn-laws, that they hail failed to answer the puresees cat' their enactment—that they had net secured to the agri- culler: e a steady, teenanerating price : and he watt into a long state• meat of prices at ditierent periods, and under various moditiemious of Corn-laws, which proved. that notwithsetieli:ig those laws, there had been frequent amid loam! fluctuations. The veal (aliject of' the present law was to raise the price of wheat, and its immediate effect, to impose an enormous tax upon the consumers of bread. lie was ashamed that the landed interest of England should attempt to justify such a meaattre by the assertion that they paid more than their due proportion of the Million. of the country. Because many other articles of consumption were taxed heavily, the landowners drought it right, by imposing another tax, to raise the price of bread! it was said, indeed, that the Coen-laws were a benefit to the labourer ; lint the pretence was an insult to the uuderatanding. The increase of wages never kept up with the increase on the price of food. It; therefore, the present laws had failed in securing steadiness of price, they had elao failed in bene- fiting the labourer ; and moreover, they had nut secured to the people of tlfis conutry a sufficient supply of home-grown corn. Since 1765, the population bad been outgrowing the power of production. Large
quantities of foreign core had been necessarily imported. Ile would abstain from pressing the manufacturing and commercial points of the question on the House ; lie knew persons engaged in commerce and nianuffictures suffered much, but he was convinced that the agricultural interest suffered most. His chief object was to impress the i louse with
the cant-le:ion, that the Hosea laws, which had been passed to prevent fluctuation, had proved a failure; and lw rested his attack upon them on that ground. Lord Fitzwilliam moved- " That the Act. Oth George the Funrth, enti ' An Act to amend the laws relating to the Importation of Corn; has ii•iled to sCI'llre that steadiness in the price of grain which is essential to the interests of the country."
The Duke of Biletunonam denied. that it was au argument for the repeal of the Corn-lairs, that they had not always preveated fluctuations in price, or the distress of the tanners and the lalieuring classes. No laws that could be passed would insure a fined and steady price. or afford security against the recurrence of seasons of suffering. In 1 el5, Lord Fitzwillinin himself, then Lord Milton, wits a stremmea advocate tbr a high protecting-duty, and maintained that cheap food injured the labourer. 'Phe Duke quoted a speech by Lord]Tilton on the Corn-bill of 1815, coetaining these opinions ; and then went on to contend, that great suffering would ensue from au alteration which would throw arable land out of cultivation, or convert it into pasturage. Farmers and labourers would be deprived to a great extent of the means of sub- sistence. as well as the landlord of his rent. He trusted that the vote of that evening would show that the Corn-laws were not to be done away with; and he would. meet the motion with the " previous question." [Several Lords said.—" A direct negative"]—Well then, he would 11101'0 a "direct negative" on the resolution.
,.ion he lieved that time repeal of these lees si
Li n h.. ii 111:v our IV ‘1 11 11 111 V lit IVO 11111 \ Oilier . s; Nviatati 'Like a I tti t 1,1111.tr, Whi•111 he klILV, tO i S N:11'.r■■•■■ s tt.,e 1 seek 111: liotnae in other la......
Lord 1\leimoriZNIII would not allow the ytestion ' c± N■:;110Ilt
joiced in the meitttriee of the I questien : mon.
seyiug fete Oil the subject : though he a. ss .1 ml than
many other topies. Mitch heti been -
- , he made by Mr. I've:tot Thomson ill time 1 , t .1.
Thontniee: lends r :Or -al mein-ter. shoe's: :mire tun oa that
•
ewation rat that re- subject; but for himself Me tagy touch resin, fe 1 ;Ito .
• se it
Ile ;was sorry that ;he been [1,til , ,1 was -was a sailtiyet :nit only of [4...ad h.:pommy. I" e, moreover in a saljeei of a iiisag,reeal,le•- i.. --ainst and that the tendency of those laws was to prevent fluctuation. There had been within the same period greater fluctuations in the prices of silk, cotton, and other articles largely consumed. lie would not allow that the Corn-lases prevented foreign nations from trading with Eng- land. Had not Austria recently concluded a cominerciel treaty with this country notwithstanding the Corn-laws? Foreign court-ides had made improvements in manufactures, which their governments natu- rally protected and cherished; and to this cause he mainly attributed the decline in the exports of manufactured articles.
The Duke of WELLINUTON, agreeing with the 1)uke of Beehingham, considered it unfair to find. fault with the Corn-laws hesteint• they had not secured absolute steadiness of price. It would 1t. niti:ei that at
Dantzie, Hamburg, and in the United Stales, the 'P.C.': in the price of wheat were greater than in England. The co c steadi- nese of price he attributed to the Corn-laws. Whim :.em before hint, he could not avoid the conelusiou that the gronial • a which Earl Fitzwilliam resind his motion had failed bins entisely. I teirned the country against placing reliance on foreigners for a soul:: e The power of taxation, which would he thrown into the linen ,i• tlanign
powers, in the event of the repeal of the Corn-hoa.s, coa•ti; • ;., view a most important feature of the case. Suppe,: lye vryce . lo •; arduous c:ato[c[ition with ;Prussian or liussian manufactureis par- t:co:le article: if We :31.0111:1 111ak0 up 0111' 1111114.1i:1 those countries toy a supply-of cant, es we were called t,, . aesnts
of the C w
orn-las,—aud if the coyness of our nye:Mate e ;hes.,
. s
:Mend:owe and cheap:It ss of corn r !II ong nor oca,
according to the usual course of mankind, that the corn :•••. . those countries would lie taxed 01 as to rander the our ma; • as it would be muter any oilier cir, ■:• the
he wottlil stroviye [inn; ace ; th[s youi.lay :it-pendent upoo. ',eel saes: turd of this cianitry and mereasiog; lie i;;•••,[;:: los
duce to nimost possible de;arec, and render ;di tl ;;;-,
a, y ; and then lit 1 its ima:rests : but it them, ho catenate i
her ,,i,jee[s a :
d of the best tied from th jesty': oonnions.
Tlas Ear! of 11.tare:)11 [-call that more it \Vokid:s :on ;rad Oven respecting prices is lsli.ve the Ilmise placed much
;• It when it 'vas notorious that lit Abistec,Iy,
yyars in•foro the bill ISl.i seat loser(! tio
was steli lv tie in nty cornesimwitet country. ml• etudil eet (letelel. the: ie Elatoll.
sem:idle:a; mid , s. emin ;Immsmo: of free i• aides s !le i•alsenee in entatt of , the :die ;inf.. ',wool triode, tis of the s
ini,dit ac to the•plieation
cont.1ile; ila,e a free trmle inai sent would boleti: net
The 1 itm itooNo sel that if Lord Fitz',
line'. t e ;Coy ;a repeal of the Corn-laws,—anti
were "LItit' fty,';11.--t111.::: would act a more nee. streighttbs :anal :o their iiljt et. end net keep 12i:ening what the elleet of repealing the Core-laws would lin--
Core wool'! I, in for Lame co:en:midi:le.
labcotrar. but ley [errs. anti ,,,• consequenee m.„' 1;1[1:1 in .; orotr;.• i[i; 1... ,ten out of must know w:11 while thi: was ner ill which it it el Len, no man would lay out t,.•• was tio way in which employment was so nutul: _siren a: a ! [i: ;;;;estion not IlirrCly as a hiadlord.: ,[a.• :Fes; io a ad ;.: ,,:last ion in whieb the cgrien,;;;;;:ai interest.e. the liclieN el. Ilea if[!, r, oec1e.1, ;sal: , t 1 em W:111111 deeply time the ti1. t 1 11.: advice 01' !..: were now sa clan:one:- 1.ct tli•; ra‘noka•titrar: jest h, , plc aes with the s'+ 't' hint -1-,a,■-•• to riainey the duty upon silk from :;ti py.• a • t
he id led like to go throte41 :dm:chest, r the day would be untie to argue this tio,that further. Ile cam: I
iffit•ri".1., of the 1:01:11try, ;Ind Orive away capital fro other parts of the -.could, where ■1 could be more
1.a 1 aeau
• el; add
islt
of 1 ,;nd
11
ere
. 1145 —.ant , nil let
and ; it Duca.- i)ot
ion to
,'.. tie it ia
;o1 would.
i• ins en on eei'7‘ of ; le was t•
I. Lord • tenons
.1; Sul- - •
knew
,tine
of t, as teed eat
'to
It
duties which afforded. them a protection, which they pretended to devise, must -necessarily be kept.up for the sake of the revenue. (Cheers.) Therefore, the manufacturers were perfectly safe in throwing these duties on the carpet, and declaring that they were ready to part with them.
Suppose much corn were to be supplied from foreign countries : what might happen ?— Let their Lordships remember the times in which they lived ; let them re- collect what they had seen. ("Ikar, hear r) He knew not what might happen—what might be done—what might take place, by the caprice, the vio- lence, the hostile passions, of other powers and other men. Who, in 1792, would ever have thought or dreamed that he should have seen the Berlin or Milan decrees, or that he should see the measures which Bonaparte adopted— the remorseless application of all the means he possessed Mr the destruction of this country ? in his opinion, it was not a sensible thing to depend in a very great degree for the nourishment of a large population upon foreign supplies : On the contrary, he thought it would be rather wise and prudent to sacrifice something of manufacturing and commercial prosperity, for the sake of national safety and national independence. That was his strong and decided feeling upon the subject ; and he very much doubted whether they would not he acting with extreme unwiseuess and imprudence, if they were not to look to that point, even at the expense of something which might otherwise tend to promote the augmentation of our capital and the increase of our commerce. He entirely agreed with what had been stated by his noble friend on the oppo-
site side of the House : he teas not in any respect bigoted to the existing itself ; but it must be felt and admitted on all hands that change was in tself a
great evil. Their Lordships all .knew how much it must ritIcet all sales of investments iu land—all improvements in laud—all interests with respect to land. Therefore, he for one was not willing or ready easilv to make any change, unless he was perfectly convinced that the change would be for the better, and so much for the better as to he worth the while of making the alteration. With respect to the resolution proposed by Earl Fitzwilliam, he certainly shnuld give his vote in Mil' shape that it might •go to a division against the adoption of it. lie woula rather that the noble Duke 1001 moved the previous question, as was at first intended ; because it would undoubtedly
- 'place one in a situation of some difficulty to adopt a resolution the filets of
which were not proved. At the same time, he was not very nice about which side of the House the question Caine from; and, therefore, as he thought the resolutioa not a good (me, if the noble Duke persisted in moving the direct negative, he should certainly vote with him in support of it. ((heurs.) Inc voted, 00 0 full consideration of the ease, against the motion, but without pludging himself to the present law as the best that could be devised, or against any amendment of it which might hereafter he 1):•opostd.
Lord i3itoix:u0st entreated their Lordships to call to mind his mo- tion of the lath of February, and his offer of facts on which they might found a wise decision of this question ; and then to bear in mind, that during the whole of the present dobste, not one fact had been stated by one noble Lord, to which another iiid not immediately give a flat stuid distinct denial. All these disputes and denials might cause them to suspect that there was more ground than they were willing to admit for the inquiry he had proposed. They seemed resolved to settle this question in the dark—the right way or the wrong way, and caring little which. Was that the conduct or rational men ?—
It was evident the noble -Viscount who spoke last felt what it was that he was about : the noble Viscount evidently Iblt that he was about to vote what was nut true. Therefore, it would have been a relief to the noble Viscount if the noble Duke opposite would have met the proposition of the noble Earl by moving the pm viUll6 1.111CS0011. Bite, suit the guide Viscount, 1 am tint very
nice" at—ut the matter. I am not very " nice " whether, in the solemn dis-
Aaharge ■luty ab ❑ Minister of the Crown, 1 affirm by my vote that which is not tile in point 01 La. Some men, to be sure, were more nice, and some lessmee, slum others ; but this was the most extraordinary want of nicety that he had ever witnessed in a Minister or State. lie knew that nothiog that he could say would !noel tleir Lordships back from the course which they seemed unretleetimiy, heedltssly, beadlongly beta upon pursuing ; but it was his duty conscientiously to warn them how they plated themselves in a position which rational men ought not to wish to be recorded in after times, or seen in their own old age,—for all men would not hold these things so lightly as their Lord- ships 'Ult. All men would not be so little "nice?' upon the conduct of others, as some n1-11 hail been finind to be upon their own. As other people did not view its s the eyes whit which we viewed ourselves, su might their Lord- ships dep.•:,d upon it, that that Heise was the only place in all England, Scot- land, and Wales, in which precisely the saute satisfaction would be felt at their conduct that night, that their Lordships all scented to enjoy themselves.
Lord Brougham proceeded to notice several of the arguments used in the discussion ; denying that this landlords were taxed beyond their due proportion, and affirming on behalf of the manufacturers the good faith in which they offered to give up all protecting-duties.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that as a direct negative, not the previous question, was to be moved on Lord Fitzwilliam's resolution, it -was necessary for hint to explain that the vote he should give against the resolution ought not to be taken as an affirmation that the present system was the best possible, but only as convenient and proper to he retained till tt better one could be devised.
The M: rquis of NORTHAMPTON conceived that, by negativing the resolutiou, the House only voted that the noble mover had not made out his ease ; while, by supporting the previous question, the Ifouse avoided expressing an opinion one way or the other.
Lord BROUGHAM said, that by negativing the proposition, the House affirmed the contrary position.
Lord Fri smuts st, in reply, said— Re had heard with great satisfaction the speech of the noble President of the Council, trim hall with his usual eloquence and powers of language ad- dressed their Lordship:, because, although the noble Marquis had, by means of his very beautiful and judicious selection of svonls, rendered it very difficult for noble lords to form any very accurate perception of the noble Marquis's dews on t1,(2 Subjevt, yet he thought that throughout his discourse faint glim- mering, was appreciable of some alteration of the law being in the noble Mar- quis's contemplation.
The flouse divided— Contents
Present 14
Proxies 10 Non-contents : — 24 Present 111 Proxies 113 224,
Majority 200
Lord BROUGHAM gave notice of a motion for Friday, that the Itsus; should. go into Committee to consider what it is expedient to do With respect to.the Corn-laws.
The .1-louse rose at a quarter before one o'clock.
- THE NAvit.
The discussion on the Navy Estimates was resumed by the Conimons on Monday, in a Committee of the whole House ; the resolutions 'pia. posed. being-
1. That 34,165 men be employed for the sea service for thirteen hum months to the 31st day of March 1840, including 9,000 Royal Mariaes and 2,000 boys.
2. For wages for ditto, 1,080,089/.
3. For victuals for ditto, 546,6251.
The Chairman having put the first resolution, Sir ROBERT PEEL ad- dressed the Committee. The main object of his speech was twofold. He argued that the present Ministry could not repel the charge of mis- managing time naval resources of the country, and of reducing the Navy to a state of inefficiency, by alleging that their predecessors of Tory politics had brought forward lower Estimates and placed ftwer ships of war in commission. lie contended. that the Tory Administra- tions with which he had been connected, took care always to have a sufficient naval force for the exigencies of the country. The same number of men and ships which were ample in 1822 might be to small in 1539. The relative force of other powers, and the state of the foreign relations, might be, and he maintained that they were, very different, requiring a much more powerful fleet at present than at the former period. But he went on to contend, in the second place, that the naval force which .111inisters could command was not judiciously distributed. There were eleven vessels of war in the Mediterranean, which he considered too many ; whilst other parts of the world, where British commerce was extensively carried on, were left comparatively or entirely unprotected. Ile earnestly recommended a large reintbree- ment of the Navy ; for existing circumstances. howsoever produced, demanded it. The seizure of the pilot in the Gulf of 3Iexieo, he was disposed. to regard in a very serious light ; but he had no doubt that the wise and great man who now ruled over time destinies of France, and exercised a greater influence over his countrymen, because he possessed higher qualities to command their respect, than any man since the time of Bonaparte, would make ample reparation for any wrong his officer may have committed.
A desultory discussion followed : in which, with little variety, most of the statements and arguments used on previous occasions, when this subject was before the House, were repeated. It will tl terethre only be accessary to quote a few passages which present new ffiets.
Mr. CHARLES Wools said that Sir Robert Peel would find that an in- crease of force had been made on all the naval stations, where it was usual to place ships of war Mr the protection of commerce— If the right honourable gentleman had more closely referred to the returns which he lout quoted, lie would have &mud. that tahlog the tine principal sta- tions where ships are generally stationed for this purpose, namely, the East Indies, the Cape of Good Hope, Sent h America, Isortli America, and the West Indies, there had been an increase on all these stations, to such an ex- tent, that whereas in December last:, the aggregf :natant of force was sixty- six ships, in December the ne:it yem• rile ainottilt was eighty-eight ships. HUN: right honourable gentleman took the station N'Alere he seemed to think there was the greatest need of protect:0u fur our sLips-7".:Orth America and the West Indies—he would find, that while in 1A5 there were only twenty-seven ships on this station, in 18:38 them were linty.
Lord PALstimwrosz maintained, that everywhere British commerce had been fully protected ; and le ebailenged any Member to mention a single instance where the aid required had been withheld. Even in the Gulf of 'Mexico, at Vera Cruz, it could not be pretended that the least injury had been inflicted whish a iRritisli force could have pre- vented. lie contended that ten slips—not eleven—were required in the Mediterranean, in consequence of OW reletive position of' the Sultan and the Paella of Egypt ; and they who feered a war with Russia could scarcely say that that force was Inc large. Ile believed also, and they who wished well to the cause of the Queen of Spein, and were aware of the importance of trade with Spain, would agree with him, that the squadron off the Spanish coast had been usefully employed.
Mr. Homo complained of the estravaganee of the Government. lie could not account for their new course of extrevagance-
Ile bad not at first objected to it. 'because he tie eight that the matter would
get better, but it had got worse every day; and if the right honourable baronet would take that course which he represented lie would adopt it' he were ia a situation in which he might do sit, he would wit find him so much opposed to him and his MertS MS as he had been before. (" (fear, hear!") l'he other speakers were Mr. I...mot:en sons Captain A'Coitter, Lord Asitsstv, Mr. Sosnsomer MAXWELL, Captain PECIIELL, Sir ,l.AAEe Giutt.sst, Sir GiecdtesE CLERK, Captain Bosoms, Lord Joux lliyssts.Lg and Mr. WARECRTON. Mr. WARBURTON Said— lie did not hear a word now of the pressure of taxation upon the country ; and all the evils which might lie expected from the adoption of thepresmit course would only spring up when the drums of hit:dilation had passed away, which now seemed to posses: the Home. Was not the country already suffi- ciently taxed, that they must allow this neiv addition to their liabilities to be placed upon them ?
The resolutions were adopted, and ordered to be "reported " the next day.
THEATRICAL AMI.:EMENTS IN LENT.
This subject was again brought before the House on Monday, by Mr. THOMAS DUNCOMISE ; who, on the motion for going into a Com- mittee of Supply, proposed the filliowing resolution- " That this Douse having on a former day agreed to the following resolutibn, That it is the opinion of this douse that during Lent no greater restrictions should be placed upon theatrical entertainments within the city of Westminster than are placed upon the like amusements at the same period in every other part of the metropolis,' this House learns with regret and surprise that her 'Alajesty's Ministers hare' thought fit to interfere with the wholly unfettered discretion which the Legislature has been pleased to vest in the Lord Chamber- lain with respect to theatrical entertainments in Westminster, by directing that officer of her Majesty's household so to exercise his discretionary authority as to .defeat the manifest object of a resolution of the C'utnuells House of Par- Lament." Mr. Duncombe contended that the interference of Ministers with the Lord Chamberlain's exercise of his exclusive authority was imeonSti- tutional and unbecoming. As well might they instruct the Lord Chan- cellor, or the Lord Chief Justice, in matters of legal administration, or the Archbishop of Canterbury in the government of the Church. They Blight have endeavoured to rescind the resolution, as in the case of Sir Eardley Wilmot's motion for the abolition of slavery ; but their mode of interference in the present case was irregular and despotic. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that it was usual for the Lord Chamberlain to consult the Home Secretary on matters connected with the exercise of his authority. The Lord Chamberlain had done so in the present instance ; and in consequence of the resolution of the House, Lord John Russell had thought it necessary to consult his colleagues. They had all agreed that it would not be advisable to interfere with the established usage ; especially as, although Mr. Duncombe's resolution had been car- ried by a majority of 92 to 72, a similar motion had been defeated in a much faller House. It was his opinion, however, taking into consider- ation the change of custom in the observance of Lent, that an alteration of the law was required as respected theatrical amusements ; and it was his intention, either by a separate bill or by a clause in one of the Po- lice-bills before the House, to effect some changes in regard to lieens- jug, and this might be regulated at the same time.
Mr. Lstassn remarked that the alteration in Lord John Russell's tone, though it did not exhibit his consistency in a very favourable light, was certainly gratifying.
Mr. WAnnunTox, seeing the spirit of conciliation displayed by Lord John Russell, advised Mr. Duneombe not to press his motion.
Sir ROBERT Isows and Mr. PLUMPTRE opposed the resolution of Censure.
Mr. O'CONNELL thought, that when the substantial observance of Lent "had been done away with by so many persuasions of Christians, it was ridiculous to attempt the preservation of this relic of ancient times in any part of England.
Mr. DUNCOMBE asked Lord John -Russell, whether he would pledge himself that the restriction on theatrical amusements should not exist another year ? Also, be wished to know whether Lord John had the Bishop of London's sanction for the alteration in the law he now pro- mised to effect ?
Mr. CHARLES BULLER said he thought Mr. Duncombe had been ex- ceedingly triumphant, and ought to withdraw his motion.
Lord Jonx RUSSELL said it was a motion of censure, and he would not allow it to be withdrawn, The galleries were cleared for a division, but none took place ; and the resolution was negatived.
PUBLICATION OF PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
Lord LYNDHURST, on Monday, called the attention of the Lords to the report of the Select Committee on the petition of Mr. John Joseph Lawson (publisher of the Tines) for the production of evidence given before a Committee of their Lordships' House. He stated the case of the petitioner. A Committee had sat last session on the subject of New Zealand. The evidence taken by that Committee the House of Com- mons had requested and obtained liberty to publish ; and accordingly it was printed by Hansard, and sold publicly and freely. In the Times newspaper part of this evidence had been quoted in support and illus- tration of some remarks ; and the quotations were alleged to contain libellous matter on a Mr. Polack, who brought an action against Law- son, the petitioner. The defendant " justified ;" and was advised by his counsel, the Attorney-General, to adduce the original evidence given before the Lords. This could only be done by their Lordships' permission to their Clerk to attend at the trial and give evidence. The petitioner had prayed for that permission ; and his petition was referred to a Select Committee, who reported against the application. Against that decision Lord Lyndhurst protested. He contended that the object of their Lordships' privileges was to promote, not to thwart justice. He quoted a precedent of the House of Commons for the course he recom- mended to the House of Lords, on the broad principle that they were bound on all occasions so to construe and to exercise their privileges as would best promote substantial justice ; and he submitted that the prayer in the petition of John Joseph Lawson should be granted.
Lord Chancellor CorrssarAst opposed the motion. He. said that there was but one question properly before the House. Here was a person who had violated their privileges by publishing evidence given
before a Select Committee of their Lordships' House, and now he called upon them to protect him from the consequences of that violation, on the ground that somebody else had violated their privileges—that the House of Commons had directed the papers in question to be printed. That was the petitioner's case ; and he did not think that it justified in-
terference iu his behalf.
The Earl of SHAFTESIITIRY entirely concurred with Lord Cottenham. Lord Ilnordurdst professed much surprise at Lord Cottenham's re- marks, knowing his disposition to lend assistance on the side of sub- stantial justice. Ile exposed the injustice, absurdity, and inconsistency of treating the publication of extracts from a document printed with the sanction of the House of Commons, from a copy granted by the
Lords, as a breach of privilege ; especially when they provided accom- modation for reporters, who came nightly to the House to conunit breaches of privileges with their Lordships' express permission.
Lord Homes:en and Lord ELLestionortai agreed with the Lord Chan- cellor.
On a division, Lord Lyndhurst's motion was carried, by 31 to 18.
MISCELLANEOUS.
CRIME IN IRELAND. The debate on this subject was resumed in the House of Commons on Monday. The speakers were Dr. LErnoy, Mr. FRENCH, Colonel VERNER,.and Sir CHARLES STYLE. While the Mast-named gentleman was speaking, the number of Members present was reduced to 3; ; which being " noticed," the House rose, at a quarter past two.
CARLOW ELEeTtosr. A petition has been presented from Mr. Gis- borne, against the return of Mr. Bruen for Carlow ; and ordered to be taken into consideration on Thursday the 11th of April.
CHURCH OF SCOTLAND. In the House of Lords, on Tuesday, Lord MELBOURNE. stated, in reply to a question from Lord GALLOWAY, that
Government was under no pledge to propose a grant of money to the . Church of Scotland, and did not ,intend to bring forward any measure on the subject.
NEW Wan% On Thursday, a new writ for Leicester was ordered, in the room of Mr. Duckworth, appointed a Master in Chancery.
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