arbafc# mitt Prince/final in Parliament._ 1. REPORT ON THE ADDRESS.

The Earl of ORMELIE, On Monday, appeared at the Bar with the report on the Address.

Mr. O'CONNELL opposed it. He considered that even the delay of a day was something gained for Ireland. He had been accused of in- gratitude, in opposing those men who by their advocacy of the Catholic claims had placed him where he was. Many of the Ministers, how- ever, had formerly been admitted to office upon the express understand- ing of sinking the question of Catholic Emancipation. The late Mr. Canning had done the same thing. But had Ministers shown no in- gratitude to the Irish members ? When Parliament was dissolved in consequence of the success of General Gascoyne's insidious motion, Ireland returned sixty-five Reformers, who supported Ministers through thick and thin ; and yet, while they gave Scotland a full and officient measure of Reform, Ireland got nothing but a miserable, jejune, nugatory bill. Talk of ingratitude, indeed ! who fought the battles of England? When did she ever cry for help, that the arm of Ireland was not stretched out to support her? He threw back indig- nantly the taunt of ingratitude upon Ministers and their partisans. The Irish Secretary had said that a strong Government was necessary —one which should be feared before it could be loved. It was an atrocious sentiment, worthy of Robespeirre and Marat ; whose reign, however, was short and bloody; and such, he predicted, would be that of the present Ministry. A great mistake had been made regarding Irish agitation. There were two kinds of war raging there,—a prwdial or agricultural war, and a political war. They required different re- medies, but were too frequently confounded. The present laws were amply sufficient to detect and punish crime; which, in some counties, was unusually rare even now. The counties of Cork, Limerick, Kerry, Clare and Sligo, were quiet. There had been disturbances in Mayo; but ;hat was owing to the misgovernment of the Lord Lieu- tenant, the Marquis of Sligo. He denied that the Trial by Jury was inoperative ; and mentioned several instances where convictions had been obtained, and where the jurors, informers, and witnesses were all walking about unmolested. The men who had been acquitted were acquitted for want of proof of their identity. All agreed that the ex- isting disturbances must be put down; and the questions to be con- sidered were—whether there was any necessity for further powers for that-purpose, and what would be the effect of the employment of those powers? He denied the necessity for those powers ; because the existing laws were amply sufficient, and had been proved to be so by the result of trials in various parts of the country. The consequence of granting additional powers to Government, would be to allow Mr. Stanley to stalk like a dictator through the land, and to multiply outrages and the causes of complaint. It was said that it was impossible for Ireland to have a local Parliament; but what had been might be again. The Irish Parliament was calumniated by the Whigs, the authors of the Penal Laws and the Insurrection Act—the concurrence in which lost even Grattan his popularity. He had been taunted with not bringing forward the Repeal question in Parliament. Mr. Stanley called upon the Re. pealers for their arguments, like the beggar in Gil Bias, who asked for alms while he presented his loaded gun. Mr. Stanley bad his gun of coercion in the Address, and then asked for the arguments which were to draw down its fire. Mr. O'Connell was not afraid to meet the Anti-Repealers on financial details. He went into an arithmetical statement to prove that Ireland had suffered in her trade, and in the ar- rangement made as to the payment of the National Debt, by the Act of Union. He was utterly opposed to the introduction of Poor-laws- not for the sake of the poor, but of the rich, against whom they would operate with all the force of a confiscation. They would work ill for poor and rich. In fact, they would soon leave no rich men in the land. Let the English attend to their own Poor-laws, and improve their own wretched system, before they thought of bringing an additional curse upon Ireland by their introduction there. Ministers, he saw clearly, were about to introduce a reign of terror into Ireland, which would end in its ruin. They were resolved to prevent free discussion in Ireland; but let them beware how they proceeded. If they attacked the press, there should be a run for gold on the banks. This he had never en- couraged before, although be had been charged with having done so, but he would do it now, if the press was to be gagged. The state of England, with her starving, discontented population, ought to make MiniAters pause in their course. They were not safe at home. He warned the Ministry, moreover, that there were, almost within hearing, one hundred thousand Irishmen, who would be driven to despair by the announcement of the intentions of Government, which would at once convey to them the idea of the murder of their parents, wives, and children.

Mr. SPRING RICE was glad that Mr. O'Connell had at last brought forward the question of Repeal upon tangible grounds. He would fol- low him through his statements ; but he must first defend the conduct of the Whigs against his attacks. Mr. Rice referred to the conduct of Mr. Fox, who was the first to bring forward the Catholic question in Parliament—to that of Mr. Grattan, Sir John Newport, Lord Charlemont, and others ; and asserted that the Whigs had always been the true friends of Ireland. He quoted two passages from speeches of Mr. O'Connell himself, delivered in June 1831 and May 1832, highly laudatory of the conduct of Lord Grey's Government, to prove that even Mr. O'Connell was at one time an admirer of the men whom he was now so forward to vituperate. Mr. Rice then entered into a long statement of figures to prove the condition of Ireland previously to, at the time of, and subsequently to the Union.

iu 1791, the Income of Ireland was

£1,190,000 Ha: Expenditure 1,150,000

Ten years afterwards, the Income was only

2,684,000

but the Expenditure was 5,893,000

At the time of tire Union, after paying the interest of the Debt, and the revenue charges, there was only a surplus to provide the whole Military and Civil Expenditure of the country or 460,000/. At the time of the consolidation of the Exchequers, the charge for the interest of the Debt in Ireland was 5.900,0001., while the income Was leo by 200,000/. The Irish Parliament had laid on, but the United Parliament had rs pealed, the taxes upon Horses, Carriages, Servants, and the Hearth-tax. Before lb Union, there was a tax upon the exportation of bacon, beef, and live cattle. Tim was also a regular system of Corn-lairs. Since the Union, the exportation of Irish prs duce had greatly inerMsed,—a fact which he contended was good evidence of the ii creasing prosperity of the country, and of the additional demand for labour. Ireland was free from many taxes which England paid. He would state some facts to proves how great an extent this extra taxation of England had. proceeded. From 1801 to tilt present time, England had paid, by taxes upon Income, by Land and Assessed Taxes by duties upon Beer, Soap, Candles, and Printed Cottons (from all of which treble*: was exempt), 333,741,871/. The rapid increase of trade in Ireland since the Union sri proved by the fact that her imports had increased (from 1777 to 1826) from 2,762,2E to 7,490901.; and her exports during the same period, from 3,183,972/. to 8,454,91 From the alteration in the commercial laws which regulated the intercourse betwer the two countries, it had become impossible to continue this account, but there was r, reason to think that the trade of Ireland had decreased since 1826.

From 1777 to 1826 the Importation of Woollen Yarn had increased from 57 lbs. to lbs. 632,750 of Cotton Yarn from 3,883 lbs. to 0,510,303 • • • • of Cotton Wool from 428,960 lbs. to 4,368,656

... •

He was anxious that Colonel Torrens should hear these statement because the Colonel was of opinion that Ireland would be ruined E she got rich, and if people were to carry their capital there. He ale hoped that Mr. Cobbett would attend to what he was stating; Mr Cobbett had stated that the more raw material the people worked nit into manufactures, the more wretched they became. Mr. Rice pro . ceeded to show, that although the cotton trade had increased, there hit been no falling off in the linen trade.

From 1777 to 1826, the quantity of linen exported had increased from 20,140,77 yards to 51,947,413 yards, while the exportation of cotton had increased from 9,14: yards in 1800, to 7,793,879 yards in 1826. The consumption also of the necessaries of life had increased— That of raw Sugar, for the three years i ending in 1777, was ....Cwts 212,620

Ditto foendinge two years ending 1832, was 348,701

Tobacco for the three years ending in 1777, was Lbs. 4,40498.776011 Ditto for the two years ending in -.1832, was 4' 3 Coals for the three years ending in 1777. was Tons. 330153,70532 Ditto for the two years ending -Jan. 5, 1831, was

851,424 Lbs. 808,743 Tea for the three years ending 1777, was Ditto for the three years ending Jan. 5, 1828, was 3,887,955

The consumption also of Whisky had increased as follows—

In 1782 it was Gal. 2,076,055 In 1792 it was

In 1800 it was In 1810 it was 3,520,082

In 1820 it was . In 1830 it was 84,81450;620: In 1832 it was 93;613674:1295 3,849,298

It was agreed, by the Articles of the Union, that the Imperial Parliament should pay for the purposes of charity and the encouragement of schools and manufactures, 73,277/, per annum for twenty years. This would have amounted to 1,465.5401.; but the amount actually voted was not less than 6,979,0006 There-had-been also expendetl

slnee the Union, by loan. gift, or otherwise inpublic works, roads. hart ours, bridges, Sec., 3,899,314/. 88.9,1d. The Cholera had cost England only 12,0721. of sublie money ; but in Ireland the cost to the public was uo less than 161,324/. It appeared also that under the "Pahlic Works (Ireland) 13111 " of last session, there had leek expended in loans and grants, by which employment was furnished to the poor, 819,4511. Is. 9d.

He by no means wished to be considered as denying the existence of extreme poverty in Ireland ; nor did he mean to infer, tlat because much had been done for that country, we had done more tlu:n our duty, or that we ought now to stop. He had shown, however, that there was no want of sympathy on the part of England towards their Irish fellow-subjects. He now, as he had done four years ago, told Mr. O'Connell, that the repeal of the Union meant the destrumion of the English monarchy in Ireland, and the setting up of a republic of the worst kind. He hoped that God would protect us against the conse- quences of the acts of its more zealous advocates.

Mr. CellnETT, having been alluded to by Mr. Spring Rice, defended and explained what he had Said on the preceding Thursday, that the operatives were not benefited by the increased exportation of the articles which they manufactured. The Irish were not enriched by the exportation of their produce. How could they be so, when it was all sent out of the country ? A late Primate of Ireland, a younger brother without hereditary fortune, lived for twenty years at Fulham. He spent a vast deal Of money there, and left three hundred thousand pounds behind him. That was the way in which Ireland was ruined. It was foolish and shallow to talk about England paying so much in taxes while Ireland paid so little. If the produce of Ireland came to England, the taxes of Ireland were paid in England. •

Mr. G. ROBINSON said, it was clear that no attempt to conciliate Mr. O'Connell would have any effect. It appeared to be the object of that gentleman and his friends to drive the English members into con.. seating to the Repeal, by sheer disgust at Hibernian oratory. If Mr. O'Connell would take as much pains to pacify as he did to excite, the people of Ireland would soon be quiet, and would rely upon the good intentions of the Government.

Mr. RICHARDS said, he was convinced that Ireland was in a state of improvement. His panacea for the ills of that country was the Poor- laws. Mr. Cobbett might answer him by a little sophism, well enough suited to the Political Register, but it would not do in the House of Commons. He thought that Sir Robert Peers bill for altering the currency was the real cause of all our suffering in England.

Mr. J. BROWNE complained that Mr. O'Connell had charged a rela- tion of his (we believe his father) with cowardice. Such a charge mine very ill from Mr. O'Connell; who ought to have made a vow to speak charitably of all men, when he made one, under the most solemn circumstances, to pursue a certain course of life. Mr. Browne was the freely-elected member for Mayo ; he had not bowed down to Juggernaut. He endeavoured to extenuate the imputed atrocities of the police in Mayo'; who, he said, had been justified by the verdict of the Coroner's -Jury.

• Mr. MonnAx O'CONNELL said, that as long as Ministers refused to state what their forthcoming measures were to be, he should persist in thinking that they were violent and coercive. Much had been said about the sufferings of the Clergy; but it seemed to be forgotten that tithe-payers suffered too. He had seen the milch-cow distrained for tithe, though there were plenty of "dry beasts" to seize : but the parson chose to have the cow which supplied the family with milk.

- . Mr. D. ROCHE said, that the county of Limerick, in which he re- Sided, was perfectly tranquil, as were also Clare and Galway. No case had been made out to justify Government in calling for measures of in- creased severity.

Mr. J. O'CoNiert.r. protested, in the name of his constituents, against the attempts of Ministers to oppress his country.

The report on the Address was then brought up. On the motion that it should be read, TVIr. H. GRATTAN wished to move an amendment, which he forgot to move the other night. .

The SPEAKER, with a smile, observed, that as Mr. Grattan was too late then, so he was too early now. He must propose his amendment when the Clerk, in reading the Address, came to any words to which he objected.

The Clerk began to read—" Most Gracious Sovereign—"

Mr. COBBETT rose suddenly, and said, "I object to all that follows." (Loud laughter.) He then continued, amidst much coughing and laughter, to argue against the propriety of sending up such an Address as was proposed. He moved the following Address instead of it ; and declared his intention of dividing the House.

" Most Gracious Sovereign—We, your Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assem- bled, express to your Majesty our humble thanks for your Majesty's most gracious speech from the Throne. a We thank your Majesty for the information which your Majesty has been gra- ciously pleased to communicate to us relative to those proceedings which' your Majesty, in virtue of your constitutional and just prerogative, has caused to be adopted with re- gard to Portugal, Belgium, and Holland; and, being perfectly assured that every act of your Majesty with regard to those countries will proceed from that anxious solicitude which your Majesty has constantly evinced to promote the interests of your dutiful people, and to maintain the honour of the kingdom, we give your Majesty our assurance, that we shall receive with the greatest respect, and shall bestow our best and most se- dt:lous attention upon, those various papers relating to the affairs of Holland and lid. ium,which your majesty has been graciously pleased to intimate that your Majesty kaa given directions to be laid before us. .

" We assure your Majesty, that, with regard to the Charters of the Bank of England and the East India Company, we shall enter with care and diligence on a revision of those establishments ; and that the best of our endeavours shall be employed to arrive it such a decision as shall be best calculated to secure real and solid public credit, as well as to promote the general prosperity and power of your Majesty's kingdom. " Well knowing, and most acutely feeling, the sorrowful effects of the present mode of maintaining the Clergy of the Established Church, both in England and Ireland, We are peculiarly grateful to your Majesty for having suggested to us the making of !cry great and extensive alterations with regard to the temporalities of that Church ; and it is with peculiar earnestness that we beg your Majesty to be assured, that we aliall enter upon the task with all the patience, all the diligence, all the absence of pas- sion and of prejudice, which the interesting and momentous subject so imperiously de- mands; and that we confidently hope, that the result of our consultations will tend to the good of the Church, the safety, honour, and welfare of your Majesty- and your king- dom; and that this most important matter will be so ordered and settled by our codes- I. ours, that peace and happiness, truth and justice, religion and piety, may be established ong us for all generations. VI bile we humbly present to yone Majesty our most grateful thanks for hivinmr been iouslYPIcascel to assure us that your Majesty has directed the Estimates for the

service of the ensuing year to be framed with the most anxious attention to reonomy, and while we assure your Majesty that nothing shall be wattling on our part to reward habits of industry and promote good order amongst the labouring etteses of the cm- munity, our bounden duty to our constituents, as well as to your Majesty, compels us to express to your Majesty our deep regret that your Majesty should not have been ad- vised graciously to suggest to us to consider of the means of lightening the numerous and heavy burdens which are a discouragement to that industry, and which so (nuttily oppress those meritorious and suffering classes : and we assure your Majesty that we will with all diligence and zeal, proceed to an investigation of the causes w hied, have produced those burdens and their consequent sufferings, anti to the adoption of mea- sures which shall, in our judgineut. be calculated to produce effectual and permanent relief.

" Most sincerely do we participate with your Majesty in that pain eltieh sien Ma; jesty's paternal solicitude for the welfare of your people lets intineed your M.:jesty gra- ciously to express with regard to the disturhawes in Ireland ; and we assure your Majesty that we shall be ready, at all times, to adopt ans. comfit ut Meal measares that may be necessary for controlling and inmishing the disturbers of th, public peace, and for preserving and strengthening those ties which connect the INN,/ Int Fie, in int/Is:- Soluble bonds of loyalty to your NI aiest y ; &end t11, as we do, a separation of the two countries to be fraught with de,t rue!im to the peace, security, and uellhre of your Majesty's dominions. And convinc-d i we :tre, that nothing but unjust and cruel treatment of our fellow-subjects of led:eel ra e,•■•■ at eo y pmlion oh t to de-

sire such a separation, we most suleme v a- sure M::je,ty, that we will iv-xi/give

our sanction to their twine tfeated :Lna 11ZIt Nvt, will, ss iii the smallest possible delay, prucced to t he ■•,,n of red ri.nsiug 2i,111I. fold grievances under which they have s:u long 1■0;.11 suffering, and which are firmly convinced, the real cause of the present unhappy disturbances." Notwithstanding the impatience of the 1-louse to divide, Mr. Cob- ben afterwards spoke at great length respecting the sinecures of l'rivy Councillors and several noble fitmilies. He entered into a detail of the various pieces of preferment in Church and State, engossed by Lord Plunkett and his family,—that very Lord Plunkett who, in an address quoted by Mr. Cobbett, had talked of swearing his children on the altar, against the system from which the whole family now profited so much. Mr. Cobbett kept the House in a roar of laughter while he exposed and commented on the various sources of public emolument enjoyed by the young liannibals. He warned Ministers, that a hundred thousand bayonets would not protect the paper money; which was very near a blow-up in May last.

Mr. FIKLDEN seconded the amendment in a speech that was nearly inaudible in the Gallery and the greater part of the House. He was understood to say, that increase of production had been invariably ac- companied by increase of misery. Measures of coercion would soon be wanted for England, if something were not done for the suffering poor; of whom, in one district with which he was acquainted, there were twenty thousand without bread.

Mr. H. G. WARD gave his reasons for voting with Ministers on this occasion—because he confided in them ; and this confidence was founded on their past conduct. Vague declamation would do no good. Mr. O'Connell, in taunting the English Reformers with voting against him, had mistaken the feelings of the House. Let him bring for- ward any specific measure really calculated for the good of Ireland, and the majority would support him.

Mr. THOMAS Arrwoon was surprised and shocked to find, that the first measure recommended to the House by Ministers should be one to establish arbitrary power in Ireland. He objected to the Address also because it overlooked the distress of the people. He particularly objected to that part of the Speech which recommended the House to encourage habits of order and industry among the people ; who were already worked nearly to death ; and who, as he had himself seen, had assembled its vast multitudes to discuss exciting subjects, but had been as peaceable as lanibs. He denied that agitation was the cause of Irish misery.

"I firmly believe that it has nothing to do with it. It is extreme poverty and mi- sery which has made agitation, and not agitation the misers awl poverty. 1 deprecate the application of force. It is a wrong remedy, and will not have any otiwr elli,ct than that of exasperating the Irish nation. Poverty, stinging, grinding poverty, is the cause of the discontent that exists in Ireland ; and the more poverty is coerced, tht::I n noLakiet will increase. Poverty has already nettle them mailmen ; by coercion you , ii them devils. I beg to remind the Iloese of what took place at the daugeoms period. of 1776. I beg to remind you of what took place at that dangerous period u hen the complaints of America were brought before this Ilotte. America had one real grievance—Ireland has flow a hundred. The strength of the Irish discon huts ii ten times greater than ever existed in America in 176. The danger of outraging such a people is now very great ; and I hope you will pause before you ap- prove of coercion, and that you will shriek from exasperating a people .whora the sufferings of many years have made to burn with fierce and itabghant passion. The state of the English mind also is, in my opinion, not in a email:en to justify extreme measures against Ireland; and ir extreme measures be re,iort, it to, not only will the people of England -as support the Government, but I am not eertaiu to what extent they may not carry lii ir resistance. Let the House remember that the very elements of society are in a stat, or disunion—the hearts of the working men are dislocated in their bosoms; and it would be throwing a firebrand into a magazine of gunpowder to send a tyraunie cormaisaion into Ireland. I earn the noble Lent of the consequences of such a proceeding. I to it with great respect, and solely from a de- sire of preventing insurrection ; and should the Ilouse consider it its duty to grant the required powers, I entreat his Majesty's Ministers on no accoaut to use those powers, unless some terrible and overwharaing emergency should arise. Let me remind you of what took place in 179S. We were then told that the state of things required strong measures ; but the measures e Lich amv be adapted to one state of society ore often very ill suited to another. The state ei society in Ireland, the state of society in Eng- land, and the state of society in Europe, was then very different to what it is now. Measures may be right at one time and not at another. What has since transpired on the Continent of Europe, has given new lesous to the world. I call on you, as states- men, to bear those lessons hi remembrance. If, unhappily, you should be led to adopt coercive measures in Ireland, and the hid' people resist, remember they are no longer an undiseiplinea mob. You cannot mow them down with your ar- tillery as you did at Vinegar Ilea Upwards of a hundred towns would be converted into fortresses in a few hours. You must sacrifice armies to put down an insurrection in Ireland, where a few years ago a few regiments would have sufficed. It has been said that the Government mast be feared before it can be loved. If Minis- ters hope for quiet in Ireland—if they wish for the love of the people of that country, they must first do away with -misgovernment. irely the way to command love is not by sending the destroying angel forth over that land. It had been said by Burke that England never sent out the angel of peace, but the destroying angel was sent with her. In this instance his Majesty's Ministers are about to send forth the destroying angel, but no angel of peace is to aceompauy her footsteps. Remember, that Ireland is not capable of being reduced toa state of fear. Despair knows no fear. A nation goaded to madness by long sufferings laughs to scorn the bayonet and the cannon. Give them something to lose—something to make life desirable, and then it is possible to make them ktar.. I urge you rather to sooth than to exasperate such a nation. I have heard the Irish people accused of idleness and indifference to duties. No remark is more unjust. I have known these valuable men walk hundreds of miles, and cross the sea to labour hard in England. They exhibit enterprise, industry, and enconomy —a most remarkable combination of remarkable qualities. They save their earnings during the summer, in order to carry them back to their families. A nation thus en'• terprising, frugal, and industrious, ought never to be accused of unwillingness to work. It is the duty ofthis House to place labour in their hands. They should inquire into the cause that has for one hundred years past denied them the opportunity of labouring in their own country—that has, as it were, broken their right hand, and deprived them or Its use." (Much cheering.) .

When Sir Robert Peel gave Ministers his support, they ought to look about them : it was a suspicious circumstance. Sir Robert would gladly draw them into that course, the perseverance in which had caused his own downfall.

Mr. HUME said, he did not intend to vote for this amendment, as he considered the question settled by the divisions of Friday.

The Eail of ORMELIE began a reply, to which the House showed every disinclination to listen. A division took place on Mr. Cobbett's amendment : for it, 23; against it, 323; Ministerial majority, $00.

Mr. ATTWOOD then proposed his amendment— That instead of the words "to promote habits of industry and good order among the abouring classes of the community," there should be inserted. to promote such im- provements in the condition of the agricultural and manufacturing classes, as may se- cure good order and happiness among them."

Lord Ai:molts opposed this; and it was rejected without a division.

Mr. ATTWOOD then proposed another amendment, pledging the House to adopt such measures as would relieve Irish distress, but in ace of their failure, then to adopt stronger means for enforcing the law.

This also was negatived without a division ; and the original Address was then agreed to.

2. THE IRISH CHURCH. 1prd ALTHORY, on Tuesday, brought forward the Ministerial plan for the Reform of the Irish Church Esta- blishment. He referred to a motion on the state of Ireland which' he had made in 1824, in order to show that he had been guilty of no in- consistency since his accession to office with regard to the affairs of that country. At that time he mentioned the Catholic Disabili- ties, the existence of Orange and Ribbon Societies, the dispropor- tionate magnitude of the Church Establishment, the Grand Jury System, the want of capital, and the nature of the connexion between landlord and tenant, as among the more prominent causes of Irish distress and discontent. Some of these causes had been removed. The circumstance of so many of the Sheriffs being Protestant was quit accidental. Many of the Lords L;eutenant were Catholics. There Ought to be no distinction whatever on the ground of religion ; mid as body of the Irish nation was Catholics, it was to be presumed that, when their education and fitness for office increased, the majority of the offices would be filled by persons of that persuasion. The violence of feeling among the Orange and Ribbon men had much decreased, though it still existed. The Tithe system had been altered. The object of Ministers had been to relieve the cultivation of the Soil from the pressure of tithes, and at the same time to prevent the tithes from being swallowed up by the landlords. It was the intention of Mr. Stanley to introduce a bill to remedy the evils of the Grand Jury system. With respect to the internal taxes, there were few which pressed heavily on Ireland. The mode, however' in which the draw- back on Soap (upon which there was a duty in England but none in Ireland) was managed, required amendment : at present it pressed heavily on Ireland, but should be altered so as to remove that pressure. Want of capital could be remedied perhaps by quiet and order, but cer- tainly not by legislative enactments. Neither could the Legislature do much to regulate' and improve the connexion between landlord and tenant. A bill had, however, been introduced for that purposd, which had a retrospective oPeration. This bad proved injurious in ieveral respects to those whom it was intended to benefit. It was therefore proposed to alter and amend that act, so as to do away with its-retro- spective. effect. He would now proceed at once to explain the nature of that mea- sure 'for the reform of the Irish Church of which he had given notice. The. Church in Ireland, and its revenues, were assuredly too great for the country, considering how large a proportion of the population were Catholics. But the amount of these revenues had been much exag- gerated: he had himself entertained a very exaggerated notion of it till lately. , The income of the Bishops was only one hundred and fifty thousand pounds per annum ; from which sundry deductions were to be made, which would reduce it to one hundred and thirty thousand— the actual net amount of their revenues. The quantity of land owned by them was certainly very great, but the tenants of that land possessed five sixths of its produce, or five hundred thousand pounds, leaving-one hundred thousand per annum to the Bishops. The revenue of the Deans and Chapters was twenty-three thousand six hundred ; but the necessary expenditure to which this sum was applied was twenty-one thousand four hundred ; so that the net income of the Deans and Chap- ters was only two thousand two hundred pounds. Owing to a deficiency in the returns, he was only able to give accurately the income of 1,149 benefices out of 1,401. Their value was four hundred and seventy- eight thousand pounds per annum. Assuming, however, that the re- maining 2.52 averaged the same annual value, the whole revenue derived from benefices in Ireland would be five hundred and eighty thousand pounds. The fair annual value he would estimate at six hundred thou- sand pounds.

The statement which hc had made, then, was briefly this— Amount of the revenue of Bishops' sees £130,000 Revenue of Deans and Chapters, exclusive of the livings held by

them as Prebends

Revenue afire other benefices of Ireland 6002,000200 Total revenues of the Irish Church 4732,200 Ire therefore thought that he should he justified in stating that all the revenues of the Church of Ireland applicable to the support of the ministers of that church did not ex- ceed 800,0001.

He would not, at that time, argue with those who were of opinion that there should be no Protestant Church Establishment in Ireland. But all who conceded this point would certainly allow that the Church had the first claim upon the existing revenues. There were two hun- dred livings in Ireland of less than 100/. annual value. Instead of con- tinuing the collection of First Fruits, which at present were applied to the augmentation of poor livings and the repair of churches,—but which were not what they ought to be, and indeed could hardly be said to exist at all,—it was proposed to levy a graduated tax upon all benefices. Upon livings under 2001. per annum no tax at all would be levied.

From livings between 2001. and 5001. a year, it was intended to deduct 5 per cent.; from livings between 5001. and 7001. a year. 6 per cent.; from livings between 700/. and 8001. a 'year, 7 per cent.; from livings between 8001. and 1,000/. a year, 10 per cent.; from livings between 1,0001. and 1,2001. a year, 12 per cent.; and from all livings above

1,2001. aear. lk per cent. •

Assuming the average to be seven per cent., the whole sum thus raised would be 42,000/. When two livings—as, for instance, one of 3001. and another of 700/. per annum—were held by the same person, they would be taxed as one benefice of 1,000/. per annum. He pre, posed a different scale of taxing the bishoprics. As the necessary expenses of Bishops were greater than .those of inferior ecclesiastic; he thought it would not be fair to commence taxing the lowest bishopric at 15 per cent. and then rise in a graduated scale to tax the revenues of the richer sees.

He intended to propose, that upon the revenues of those bishoprics which were below 4,000/. a year, a tax of 5 per cent. should be imposed ; upon those between 4,0001. and 6,0001. a year, a tax of 7 per cent. ; upon those between 6,000/. and 10,000/. a year,, tax of 10 per cent.; upon all between 10,000/ and 15,000/. a year, a tax of 12 per cent; and upon all above 15,11004 a year, a tax of l5 per cent. (Rear, hear !

Notwithstanding it might be said that he was attacking vested in. - terests, he had reason to believe that the clergy themselves would make no opposition to this scheme. He would state in addition, that the in. come of the Bishop of Derry, which was at present 12,659/. per annum, i

would be reduced to 8,0001. n the first instance, and subsequently, by the operation of the tax, to 7,200/. per annum. A Board of Commis.

sioners, consisting exclusively of members of the Church of England, would be appointed to carry his plan into execution, and to manage the funds which would be raised by the taxes on benefices and bishoprics above mentioned, and those other funds which would be created under the arrangement which lie was.about to propose. In the first place, lie would do away entirely with that most vexatiom

imposition upon the Catholics the Church Cess. This was estimated to amount to 70,00/. per annum. The funds which his plan would already place at his disposal were 60,000/. There was. therefore some deficiency to be made up. But he was satisfied that the expenses to which the proceeds of that Church Cess were applied might be drini. nished, and thus the sum which he had provided would be sufficient.

Among the various laborious duties which will fallupon the Commissioners, will be that of building glebe•houses and new churches, and adding to small livings where re. quired. In order, however, to prevent the erection of new churches where they are not required, it is proposed that the Commissioners shall not have the power of anl. any funds to that purpose, unless a certain sum shall have been raised by private inch.

victuals, or a certain number of pew-rent subscribed for. •

He then stated his prospective arrangements, to take place after the death of the present incumbents, for the reduction of the number of the Irish Bishops and their revenues. He would reduce the income of the Primate from 14,500/. to 10,000/. per annum. The tax upon it would reduce it to 9,000/. per annum. He would abolish all sinecure seats in Cathedrals, and all sinecure Chapels and Deaneries. The Commissioners should have the power to suspend the reappointment of ministers to all parishes where no regular duty bad been performed for three years. He would reduce the number of bishoprics from twenty-two to twelve.

The bishoprics which be proposed to reduce were those of Dromore, Ferns, Raphoe,

Elphin, Clonfert and Kilmacdough, Killaloe and Kilfenora; Kildare, Cork, Waterford, and Ossory. Waterford was at present vacant, and therefore the reduction of that would immediately apply. For the purpose of doing the duties of these bishoprics, without an increase of expense, he proposed that Dromore should be joined with Down and Connor, Ferns with Armagh, Raphoe with Deny. Elphin with Kilmore. Clonfert with Killala, Kildare with Dublin, Cork with Cloyne. Waterford with Cashel, and Ossory with Leighlin and Ferns. It was intended that the archbishopric of Tuam should be united to Armagh; and Pat, instead of being called the archbishopric, it should be calledlhe bislOprie. ' It was also intended that Cashel should be united to the diocese of Dublin ; and that instead of Archbishop, he should be called Bishop.

By.. this arrangement, the net revenue of the Hierarchy would be reduced from 130,000/. to 70,000/. per annum.

He had also an alteration to propose with regard to the mode of granting leases of episcopal lands. At present the Bishops had the power of granting leases for twenty-one years,- and the value of a Bishop's lease was twelve and a half years'. purchase. He proposed that leases should be granted to the present lessees in perpetuity, upon the additional payment of six years' purchase on the annual value, to be calculated at a corn-rent. By this means, a new fund would be raised which being created by the Legislature, was not strictly Ecclesiastical property, arid might therefore be fairly appropriated to the exigencies of the State. He calculated the amount of the proceeds arising from the grants of leases at six years purchase, at from 2,500,000/. to 3,000,000!.; as the annual, value of the lands was about 600,000/., of which the Bishops only receive about 100,000/. This sum of two and a half or three millions would be converted to the certain benefit of the State.

In addition to these, subsidary measures would be necessary,

which would soon be brought forward. He alluded to those which regarded the payment of tithes, non-residence, and plu- ralities. It would be observed that he laid down no abstract principle. It was not necessary to say whether. Parliament had or had not the right to interfere with Church property. He sincerely hoped and trusted that his plan would give satisfaction. (Long-continued cheerinp.) That cheer told it would. With respect to the surplus revenue which it would create, certainly the Church had the first claim npon it ; but it was at the discretion Of Parliament to appropriate it as might be thought best for the country.. He concluded by moving for leave to bring in a bill to alter and amend the law relating to the temporalities of the Church of Ireland.'

Mr. O'CONNELL said he would not delay a single moment to express the satisfaction and delight with which he had listened to Lord Althorp. He had been more gratified than he could express, and would give his best support to a proposition so well founded both in principle and in practice. His Majesty's Ministers had acted most wisely in bring- ing forward a plan, good in its present operation, and containing prin- ciples that might be of the greatest future benefit. He utterly de- nied the imputation which had been thrown upon the Catholics, that they wished for a Church Establishment of their own. He would be the first to oppose any such scheme. He very much applauded the abolition of the Vestry Cess. It was the cause of infinite vexation in Ireland. He thanked Ministers, as an Irishman, for what they pur- posed to do; and would give them every assistaucein his power in car- rying through so salutary a reform.

Sir R. H. Nous said that he must oppose and disapprove of any scheme which met with.the decided approbation of Mr. O'Connell. It was in vain,' however, to say any thing about the enemies of the Church Establishment, who might be found among the Catholic mem- bers, when 'the • sworn servants of the' Crown could bring forward such a measure as. the present. He maintained that the Coronation Oath, and the oath taken by members of Parliament, alike forbade the tulop- ;ion of a scheme which would cut off no fewer than ten Bishops from the Irish Church Establishment. The Act of Union also forbade this pandering to the bad passions and baser feelings of the People. The money taken from the Church would be pocketed by the landlords. The time chosen foi this attack on the clergy was most ill-judged, for they were now more than usually pious and attentive to their duties. He was afraid, from the manner in which the plan proposed was re- ceived by the House, that his opposition would be useless

But, believing that this attack on Church property would be followed by an attack on civil property—that it was utmalled for, unjust, and unwise—fraught with danger to the interests uf true religion, and calculated to lead to most lamentable results, he repeated, he should give the measure his decided and continued opposition.

Sir F. Buanarr differed entirely from Sir Robert Inglis as to the consequences which he apprehended from this measure.

So far from its having a tendency to weaken the ties of property, lie felt assured the tendency would be of the most contrary character ; and that by giving, as he was sure it would, increased confidence to the country, it would strengthen all the ties of civilization in Ireland, and increase the valise of her property. But what gave him the most gratification was, that the announcement of this plan of Irish Church Reform seemed to have scared away from the honourable Member for Dublin that horrible le- gion of frightful shadows, arising from a dread of impending evils, aud to have restored to him a calmer comprehension—that reason had again assumed the sway over passion —that dictation was likely to cease—and that the views of Ministers appeared likely lo gain from him a candid interpretation. more in accordance with the acknowledged generosity of his country. (Loud cheers). He believed that this measure of conciliation would prevent the neces- sity of having recourse to the harsher measures which were contem- plated. At any rate, it would convince every one that extraordinary powers might safely be intrusted to the authors of such a measure. The Reformed Parliament would look closely into the mode in which the unusual powers called for were exercised. But he was convinced that they would only be used to repress violent outrages and atrocious crimes, from which the poor and helpless were the principal sufferers.

He believed that, in introducing this measure, the Ministers were doing more than any one thing could do to preserve that Union Which, in his opinion, was necessary to the safety, the prosperity, and the grandeur of the empire.

Mr. GOULBURN was much disappointed at the motion which Lord Althorp had just made. He regretted most deeply that the influence of the Church, to which he mainly looked for the salvation of the country, should be so much diminished. The leading feature in the plan was the destruction of half the Hierarchy in Ireland.

Whence had Lord Althorp derived his information that ten Bishops in Ireland might be dispensed with? Was it from Roman Catholics ? They had as large a number of Bishops in Ireland as belonged to the Protestant Church. it was especially worthy of notice, that not less than half of the proposed bishoprics to be abolished were taken from that part of Ireland in which the population was essentially Protestant.

He protested against the monstrous proposition of empowering the Commissioners to strike out of the list of Protestant livings those wherein no service had been performed for three years, when it was notorious that lately many clergyman had been compelled to absent sent themselves on the penalty of being murdered if they remained. There would be no end to the conciliatory measures which would be demanded. The Catholics had only to be troublesome, and the re- maining Bishops would be sacrificed, he presumed, in order to pacify them. The principle laid down in the proposed measure would in- fallibly lead to the destruction of Church property in England as well as in Ireland. He therefore most solemnly protested against it.

Mr. BARRON hailed the intended measure of Government with great satisfaction. He could assure Lord Althorp, that it was calculated to strengthen the Protestant Church more than any other measure within his control.

He would go further, and confidently assure the House, that if such a measure were much longer delayed, there would be an end to every vestige of the Protestant Esta- blishment—he meant its its temporal sense—in Ireland; and that both Catholic' and 1Protestant would, ere long, have joined in its overthrow, so deep was the sense of its monstrous grievances.

Lord EBIHNGTON was surprised at the vituperative tone in which Sir Robert Inglis, who was usually so bland, had denounced the mea- sure proposed by Lord Althorp. Sir Robert would preserve, it ap- peared, those blots, stains, and abuses in the Church, with which most conscientious Protestants were deeply disgusted. The existence of a Aclergyman deriving an income from a people to whom Ile made no re- turn, was a scandal to the Church. The growth of religion was not commensurate with the increase of clerical revenues—the converse was the fact. He could not flatter himself, although he expected much good from the present plan, that it would preclude the necessity of the coercive measures for which Ministers intended to apply.

He was as reluctant as any one to grant latch powers ; but, from the confidence he had in Ids noble friend who was at the head of the Government in Ireland—from the confidence he placed in Mr. Stanley, of whom he was anxious so to speak because he _had been calumniated—and from his confidence in the Government—confidence arising from the manner in which they had redeemed their pledge by bringing forward this measure for the conciliation (Abe people—he should support them in their demand for -such powers, because he was quite sure they would not abuse any power committed to their hands. (Cheers.) Mr. RUTHYEN did not expect that all the good would arise from this Measure which others seemed to anticipate. Four Bishops were suffi- cient for the Protestant population of Ireland. He thanked Govern- ment for the abolition of Caurch-rates, but it was a mistake to imagine that it would do away with agitation. He supposed that the surplus revenue would be applied to general purposes ; but he would remind the House, that the property of the Church was originally de- stined for the support of religious sects of all denominations, the build- ing and repairing of churches, and the relief of the poor. He con-

c.

eluded by proposing an amendment, to the effect that it was expedient to inquire into the present state of the Irish Church, with a view to an entire modification of its temporalities, and the appropriation of its re- venues to their original purposes, as just mentioned.

Mr. WARRE did not expect that Sir Robert Inglis would have re- vived the exploded notion that the King would violate his Coronation Oath by sanctioning measures which his Ministers and both Houses of Parliament recommended, for the preservation, not the destruction of the Church. That question had been set at rest while the Catholic Disabilities were yet unremoved.

If, indeed, it were true that it was a violation of the King's Coronation Oath to assent to any measure interfering with Church property, he did not know to what ex- tent that might not be pushed; and a bill for the restraint of pluralities, or a curate regulation bill, might be met in this way. If such a principle was to be maintained as Immoveable, he trusted Sir Robert Inglis would also consider that it might be pushed to the extent of becoming an absolute veto upon any thing like a salutary reform. Although Mr. Goulburn might have been prepared, while in office, to advise the King against sanctioning any measure of reform in the Irish Church, the days were gone when such advice could be safely

tendered.

It would be well if public men would learn a lesson from past days, as his lIajesty'a Ministers Iliad learned and profited by it, and had resolved to make those eoncessione which. Ise verily bdieved, would secure the stability of the Church.

Sir ROBERT PEEL said, that it would have been more in accordance with the practice of the House had a measure affecting the interests of religion been proposed in Committee. This was done when the repeal of the Test Act and the Catholic Emancipation Bill were introduced. That was the established custom ; and unless it were resolved to abo- lish the former practice of the House, it ought to have been adhered to on the present occasion.

Now for the main propositiou of the noble lord; and be must say ,that his confidence in the wisdom of that proposition was not much confirmed by the universal approba- tion with which it was received, and by the apparent determination at once, without further consideration, to adopt this plan, which was said to be fraught with benefit to Ireland.

He wished rightly to understand the measure— Ile understood that the Tithe Composition Art of the last session was to remain in force, and that other acts were to he passed to further the operation of that act, so as to enal de the possessors of land to rid themselves of the annual charge of composition by commuting that to a fixed sum. Ile was not sure whether the proposal made lea session for appointing Diocesan Corporations was to be abandoned ; nor did he lightly understand what the corporations which the noble lord intended to establish, were to do.

Lord .ALTHORP said, that Commissioners would be appointed who would attend to the repairs and building of churches, the expense of which was now defrayed out of the Church Cess ' • and, in answer to a further question from Sir ROBERT PEEL, observed, that it would be the object of Government to encourage the commutation of tithes, the pro- duce of which would of course be paid to the clergy. That was a sub- ject, however, not comprehended in the present bill. The Commis- sioners appointed under the bill would have nothing to do with it.

Sir ROBERT PEEL resumed. He understood that the whole income at present belonging to the Church would be appropriated to purposes strictly ecclesiastical, whatever alteration might be made in the mode of collecting it.

Ile admitted that the time was now come when the whole state of that Chureh must undergo an enlarged and comprehensive consideration. The time had come when it was desirable that it should undergo that consideration, not so much for the purpose of conciliating any party, but for the purpose of seeing whether any thing could be done to add to its stability and security.

lie concurred in many parts of the proposed pl.m,—such as the pro- 'aiding of glebes for Protestant clergymen in districts where there were none at present, the abolition of sinecures and pluralities, and of the Church Cess. He very much doubted the propriety of abolishing ten out of twenty-two bishoprics. He understood that part of the proposed plan was to separate parishes now united, to build new churches, and purchase new glebes : the number of clergy, and consequently the duties of the Bishops, would thus be augmented. He thought that much be- nefit would arise from the residence of the clergy in Ireland,—notwith- standing Colonel Torrens was of opinion that she influx of capital would be injurious; and another great political economist had asserted, and demonstrated, as he supposed, by strict mathematical proof, that it made no difference whether an Irish proprietor resided in Ireland or in. France—whether he spent his rents in Dublin or Paris. As matters stood at present, he thought it was far better to put the produce of - tithes into the pockets of a resident clergy, than of absentee landlords.

Lord Althorp had not explained whether he intended to propose any corresponding reduction in the number of the Irish Bishops who were now entitled to sit in the House of Lards. If he was about to reduce their number, that involved another question of great importance, independent of Church reform. If any precedent of that kind should be unnecessarily set, they would be exciting fresh expectations. If the number of the Irish Bishops sitting in Parliament was to remain the same, the number of those left in Ireland would be reduced to eight. These were matters of great importance; and in common decency they ought to go through the forms of deliberative consideration before they pronounced an opiiiioa on questions deeply affecting the interests of the country.

Nothing was said about lay impropriations. Perhaps that was a sub- ject not intended to be comprised in the bill before the House— Ile knew not how that might be ; but with respect to lay patronage, though he had no desire to interfere with it. considered as private property, yet he must say that there was a condition annexed to that property which ought to be enforced,—viz. that the spiritual duties connected with it should be effectually performed.

With respect to the puwer which the bill would give to the tenants of Bishops to possess themselves in perpetuity of the land which they now rent, by the payment of six years' purchase, Sir Robert observed, that

He considered this to be an enormous power. If a Bishop had been moderate in the demand of rent, his tenant would have the power to possess himself of the land in per- petuity at a rent less than its value, and thus deprive the Church of part of its property. Lord Althorp then said that a portion of the proceeds of these leases was to be consi- dered as strictly applicable to secular purposes,—that if any benefit was conferred on the Church by act of Parliament, the amount of that pecuniary benefit might be ap- plied to secular purposes.

Sir Robert decidedly objected to this principle. It would lead to expectations that future Parliaments might apply Church property to purposes very different from the support of religion.

Mr. STANLEY said, it had often been his painful duty to bring for... ward ungracious measures relative to Ireland—measures not his alone, but those of the Cabinet with which he acted. It would certainly therefore have been agreeable to him to have been the instrument of proposing the present plan of conciliation to the House. But the mode in which Lord Althorp had introduced and the House had re- ceived the healing measure then under discussion, was sufficient to remove all personal feelings on the subject.

He hailed it as an omen of the happiest nature—as an omen not only of the good wishes and kind benevolence which were manifested towards Ireland on all hands, but he hailed it also as a proof of the sound sense and calm discretion which, he trusted they might anticipate from this Reformed House of Commons in the discussion of great and important questions.

He could not concur with Sir Robert Inglis in thinking that the as- sent of Mr. O'Connell,—with whom be had fought many battles, and should probably have to fight many more,—made the measure bad, or that it was on that account to be received with suspicion. He differed with Sir Robert Peel in thinking that this measure ought to have been introduced in Committee— If he was not misinformed, three or four measures had been introduced by Sir Robert, of nearly the same character as the prevent, without the intervention of a Com.

mitten,. In 1624, the member for Cambridge introduced the Tithe Composition Act, in ' 3826, the Vestry BM, and afterwards the Pluralities Bill, and the Curates Bill. all or 'which related to the temporalities of the Church without going through the ordeal of a Committee in the first instance.

It was agreed by all, except the member for Oxford, that a different distribution of Church property was necessary. The mode in which - it was collected was more annoying than the amonnt. The bill now brought forward was founded upon the plan adopted by the Tithe Com- mittee of last year ; who recommended in their report, that there should be a newvaluation of all benefices, for the 11t1q:rise of laying a tax of U.5 per cent. upon them' which was to go to thi.- pi:yment of Church- rates, • In that principle Sir Robert Peel, and Fermi members who acted with him, concurred. The clergy in general were quite within.- to make the sacrifice which the state of public opinion required. No Opposition was to be expected from them.

With respect to the number of bishoprics, he should at the proper time be able to show, that neither in the extent of the dioceses, nor in the number of clergy under their jurisdiction, would the duties of the remaining Bishops be greater than they would be able to superintend.

He restated Lord Althorp's explanation of the mode in which the leases now granted by the Bishops for twenty-one years were to be converted into perpetual ones ;„ and maintained, that it was an equitable arrangement for the Bishops and their tenantry.

Sir Robert Peel took an erroneous view of the case, when he said, that if the Bishop hall given Hut lease at a low rent, an advantege would be gained by the tenant. tivho -would iii purehasing t he permanett possession have it at a rate or eurehase for the aver:tee rent or six years. But if the Bishop had let it a low rent, his tunotnit of tine ivos gremer ia proportion. This, therefore, would make no differenee to him. ("Hem-, hear," Iron Sr R4c-rt Millis.) The honourable Baronet douhnst :Ids; but he onghtin know That the value of this property was menially calculated by fixed tables. and the average of the line was /me- fifth of the beneficial interest of the ti-11:tht. There had been many instances of' Bishops mulling their lives against leases: but they were in general fieind injurious to the tenant, and not always to the advantage of the party W110 SO tall hiS tic:, though they might be of some him:ciliate profit to his sue- censor.

The members of the Cabinet all concurred in submitting this measure to the House : it was therefore of very little consequence • what difference of opinion might exist among them as to the right of appropriating Ecclesiastical revenues to State purposes.

Thetwasure which they submitted was one of' redief from a burden whiell was found

oPPro,i,;' ; it WaS hoSt ttiOIVIS of the Church thought \route be not only a relief to- the great mass of the People of Ireland, lint also a groat mite-Adage to the Church it-ol I'; endue such a question he thutight it was no valid objection to it that these who.proposed it were not agreed on some abstract question, which was Out at all involved in it. (Cheers.) Ile conclude:1 by expressing, in strong terms, the interest which he had always felt in the ivelfhre of Ireland, and his gm-eat 'egret at the failure of s.oine of his measures to conciliate his political opponents. He had joined the present Government, and selected the office of Secretary for Irchuid, from his earnest desire to be of some service to that coup try— in his endeavours to attain That. great object, he wield have failed; he might have exposed hiniselr to iiiisiniaersisiiinea awl to ill-will nom one side and the other; but, 'notwithstanding that, Int new edletettly doel.; red, thdt he did me, mei had never enter- tained any ill-feeling towards any met of those who lecl erassed his path, or ezeleatmired to obet owe his measures. (Laid and mutineer: clweriad, drrini whirl: Mr. !hinleg tippf2rtre,! m-It (Octal.) tle might, he wpeatecl. :101 have give:. he satisettet ion I 0 17:;13 Side yr the it her which Ile coalal have wished--he might hi;' Miled in ;1,-es:id:shine tile geed ss eieli he leo he:eel:et : but that should not hinder him lima devtelog hint- self to wbat he heel reasun to believe would eerve Ireland.

Mr. SI:AW said, that et a mere fitti.T. opportunity lie wealt oi-pose both the principlf.- and the &tails of the measure.

Ile protested against the doctrine, that when the Legislature. by a measere of im- movement, added new value to property, the fruits of that improvement were not to he enjol-ed by I ite proprietor; that would, to fact, be to improve with one baud and con- fiscal o wit I t lie other.

He thought that other measures ought to have taken precedence of this—that the authority of the law should have been vindicated before an unavailing sacrifice was made to appease those who were systemati- cally violating it.

Sir R. KEANE expressed his satisfaction with the measure proposed by Ministers.

Another Alember begged, as a Catholic representative of Ireland, also to express his satisfaction. He was anxious that the measure should be received here in the same conciliatory spirit as he was sure it would he in Ireland : he therefore begged Mr. Ruthven to withdraw • his amendment.

Mr. RUTIIVEN said he, would be satisfied to let his amendment be- entered on the records of the House, and therefore would not trouble the House by pressing it to a division.

The amendment was accordingly put and negatived. The original . motion was then put, and leave given to bring in the bill.

3. CIItTnCII PROPERTY.—Mr. D. W. HaavEv, on Wednesday,

• moved that an address be presented to the King praying that he would direct the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to ascertain the localities of all Church property, the amount of rent paid thereon (other than rack- rent), the probable number of acres in each place, and the actual an- nual value thereof. He also moved for returns relative to the descrip- tion of Ecclesiastical property charged with any rent, pension, stipend, Or other payment on lease ; specifying the probable number of acres, . and the Value thereof, and the customary fines for the renewal of leases . of land held under Ecclesiastical bodies, either for years or lives.

Lord ALTHORP objected to granting these returns, because they were

unnecessary, and could only be made at a great expense of time and • money.

Lord STORMONT asked to what purposes the surplus of the revenuas of the Church of Ireland was intended to be devoted.

Lord ..4.1.rnonr replied, that he considered the surplus revenue ap- plicable to the purposes of the State.

Mr. HARLAND inquired whether it was intended to diminish the number of Irish Bishops in the House of Lords?

Lord .ALTHORP answered in the negative.

• Mr. LIT rLETom .said, it would be extremely inconvenient to the Commissioaers to be compelled to furnish the information suggested The Bishops, he added, had been very ready to answer all question; and to give the Commissioners every assistance.

4. SUPPRESSION Or DISTURBANCES rN IRELAND. Earl GaEv, or. Friday, brought forward a bin " for the more effectual suppression ei

dangerous associations and local disturbances in Ireland." He lamented

that there Avas no possibility or prospect of being able to preserve the peace of Ireland under the ordinary powers of the law. He had no: moved for a Committee to collect evidence upon the state of Ireland, for it was quite notorious that the whole framework of society thee was disorganized, and that many districts were in a state little short ei aetual rebellion. There was no secret conspiracy—no deep-laid plot; but the re,istance to the law was open and avowed, and carried on in the face of day. Magistrates, jurors, and witnesses, were alike en, willing to perform their duty • and would rather render themselre humble to the heaviest penalties ;hen come forward to insure the convit tion of offenders, at the imminent risk not only of their own lives but of those of all their connexions.

Ire ivould now call their attention to the constitution and designs the Volunteer Society, or new Association. The real object Of this- association was the Repeal of the Union, though it professed to le established for the redress of grievances. It was said that a simple recii•ess of grievances would put an end to disturbances in Ireland. Et

could not lay that flattering unction to his soul. lie. had beet most sanguine in his expectation that the repeal- of the Catholic .Disabilities would have been received as an earnest of the intention Gi the British Government to proceed in the work of Irish amelioratior, and that agitation would have ceased. He had always been of opiniot that Emancipation Was too long delayed. It seemed to have been yielded at last through fear, not because it was a righteous and politi: measure. Still, however, the Irish People ought to have waited for time at least in tranquillity to give the Legislature an opportunity it introduce other healing and beneficial measures into their country. But no; agitation was immediately recommenced— We were told that agitation wiruld be continued, not till Parliament adopted nit- Stir-s ofredress for i fish grievanees, not till particular evils were removed, till CheM cess was abolished, till Grand Jury presentnients were anus:sled, till the local admit& tration ofjustiee. was improved, till: t Ile Church EStilhtiShilICIli seats pUt 1111011 it diffe- rent lbotitg-elo, no, we thig111- 11,, as anxious as we weed I to remove those enlist -so: complaint, but it would not avail, till the Legislative 'Union between England and Ire land was abolished ; in other words, till the two couetries Wet, St'vered. the friends are prometers of the new Assoeiation wonIcl coutinue to exclaim, " Agitation, agitation, ;1ga:diem" with all the emphasis aide- great author or laisellievous agitation.

- The Volunteer Society is fornied upon the model of the one of l7R, Its members are not, indeed, to be armed, so long as such armingii at,vainst the law. But What is the meaning of the term Volunteer: It means a person who willingly engages to perNrin some sort of mill- tary duty. Tht•re is a central Association in Dublin, which is to hum: branches all ever the country. The meetings of these Pacificatore as they term themselves, arc to be held simultememsly with the Quar- ter-Sessions—they are to decide disputes between man and man ; they aim at acquiring a moral arid numerical force which will completely set aside that of the established Government. This was an open itn arowed 'daneer. The society was not liable to be dissolved by the ex. istiug law ; for they had no secret meetings; no illegal oaths—thud: avowed objects are peaceable and legitimate, while they are really engagi in a dam-en:us conspiracy. The organization of this society is sad, that, at rthe present moment, it depends upon the breath of one man It bring down its whole force upon us. Ile could not better describe de

• real objects of this society than in the words of Mr. Steele at its for.

motion— "I profess mvself," said' Mr. Steele, "time instrument of the Great Liberator in th pacification or the country ; and to promote that }medication, I propose that pacificator; should be sent to every parish hi Ireland, so 11:at the Working of Irish regeneration may not be retarded. There is to measure which I, as a pacificator, shall not be read; to allnpt. I am ready to be a pacificator to-day and it popular agitator to-ntorrote whenever commanded by Daniel O'Connell." In this combined character of a fierce ant popular agitator, and that of a pacificator, he is very like a character described by this: NI-4o are aegaainted with Ireland, of a man who goes into a crowd and deals out lir blwe right and left, crying out," Preserve the peace-keep good order." That was M. sort of peace aud good order which this fierce andpopular agitator was likely to produce But to proceed. Mr. Steele said, that "if the Volunteers were to be organized as in a, and Daniel O'Connell should command them to take up arms, he would cheerfully oboe and if they were to go to the woods to eat pike-handles,. be would direct them in tfe first instance to his own domain of Loch O'Connell, and he would not be absent." The it was contemplated at that period that the Volunteers should form an armed associe Hon.

-Lord Grey then detailed a number of the outrages which had thole the past year been perpetrated in Ireland. They were not confined to any particular part of the country, though they were much more nu.

merous and flagrant in some districts than in others. -

" The whole of the province of Lobster, my Lords, is in a disturbed state. In tie province of Monster, the counties of Cork and Tipperary are iu a state of great disturl- ance. In the province of Ulster, even Protestant Ulster, a great extent of country it disturbed. The county of Down is, I believe, in a disturbed state. In the province o: Connaught-as your Lordships heard the other evening so forcibly described by V; noble friend- the Marquis of Sligo, and supported by unanswerable documents-lb county of Mayo is in a very disturbed state.'

He would give them a striking instance of the impossibility of carry- ing the law into execution. At the trial of some offenders at Kilkenny the Jury did not agree, and were shut up in the Jury-room :

This was at a,period of considerable excitement ; and they all agreed that nothis: should be known of their opinions; but after they had been dismissed little more ea half an hour, a placard appeared, bearing the names of those Jurymen who were fortis. acquittal inscribed in black, and the names of those who were for finding the pathe guilty inscribed in red; those who were for the conviction were described as those eie were for blood, and the placard was headed "Blood! Blood ! Blood!"

Ile The men thus threatened were obliged to leave the country. would read to them the fearful summary of crimes committed during the past year-

" Between the 1st of January 1831 and the end of December 1832. the number d homicides was 242; of robberies, 1,179; of burglaries, 401; of burnings, 368;s houghing cattle, 290; of serious assaults, 161; of' riots, 203; of illegal rescues, 353; of illegal notices. 2.094; of illegal meetings, 427; of injuries to property, 796; of A tacks on houses, 723; of firing with intent to kill, 328; of robbery of arms, Ili ; of administering unlawful oaths, 163; of resistance to legal process, 8; of turning upland: 20; of resistance to tithes, 50; taking forcible possession. 2; making, altogether, a totil of 9,002 crimes committed in one year, and all crimes of a description connected with and growing out of the disturbed state of the country. I must, unfortunately, also si3! to your Lordships, that this system is hi a state of progression, and is increasing, ratlyh than diminishing. I Will not go further into the detaiy; but merely state a compa_si . • between the three months ending with September—that is, July. August, awl Septem- ber—and the three ending with December—that is October. November, and December. The total number of crimes committed in the first three months was 1,279 ; the total number committed in the last three months was 1,646; so that the number of crimes was unfortunately increasing."

These outrages were committed indiscriminately upon Protestants and Catholics. They were the result or the evidence of the fearful demoralization of the populace. He had a letter in his hand, dated as lately as the 24th January, from the Attorney-General to Mr. Stanley. The Attorney-General says, that the criminals upon the Home Cir- cuit are alone equal to what they were in the whole country two years ago.

" Of. 150 cases, not one is connected with tithes—not one victim was a gentleman or man of fortune; but the poor and defenceless, labourers, women, and the most helpless class of the community, were the victims of that tyranny which was carried ou in such a relentless spirit. and in such blind obedience to a cruel system. Assassination is the order of the day, and the habitual practice of those who make robbery their occupa- tion."

It was unnecessary, Lord Grey supposed, to adduce any further evi- deuce to prove the necessity of granting additional powers to the Go- . vernment to put down such a state of things as this. He proceeded to explain to the House the provisions of the bill which he intended to propose. They are briefly as follow. The Lord Lieutenant is to be empowered to disperse all meetings which he considers dangerous to the public peace, by proclamation ; and the offence of non-compliance is punishable as a misdemeanour. He may also proclaim martial law in any district, when he deems it advisable to do so. The Habeas Cor- pus is to be suspended; but persons not brought to trial within three months are to be discharged. Prisoners in the proclaimed districts are to be tried by a court-martial, consisting of not more than nine nor fewer than five officers—none of them to be under twenty-one years of age. A Sergeant-at-law or King's counsel is to attend these court- martials in the capacity of Judge Advocate. These courts are to have the power of sentencing to transportation for seven or fourteen years. Prisoners may be removed for trial from the district where the ' alleged offence was committed, to any other part of the country which may be deemed advisable. All persons found circulating seditious _. papers in the proclaimed districts, shall be deemed guilty of a misde- meanour; and all those who shall be absent from home between the hours of sunset and sunrise shall also be liable to punishment. No meetings for any purpose connected with Church and State are to be held within the proclaimed districts, unless ten days' notice shall have been given to the Lord-Lieutenant, and his consent signified. Lord Grey acknowledged that these measures were arbitrary—were uncon- stitutional; but he must say, and it was with the greatest pain that he said it, they were indispensably necessary.

The question was, whether a case of necessity had been made out. Ile had stated all the great exertions of Government to put down these ille.:al associations—for

ihle- "al they were, whatever cunning devices might be found to keep them within the strict letterof the law. They were illegal, as they threatened the peace. liberty, and security of Ireland, and the lives an -I property of the peaceable inhabitants. In lids dilemma, he threw himself confidently on their Lordships to propose measures, ha trusted, effi- cient for putting an cud to these associations.

The Earl of LONGFORD agreed that the powers given by the bill were absolutely necessary. They were protective, not coercive ; but he charged the Government, and more especially the Marquis of Angle- sea, with having encouraged agitation. He said that they permitted men who went the length of committing treason to go unpunished, while their unfortunate and ignorant dupes met with the chastisement which the real agitators deserved.

The Duke of WELLINGTON would give every assistance in carrying the bill through the House; though he did not think that its provisions

- were sufficiently directed against the mischievous demagogues who were the prime agents in the creation of Irish disturbances. He feared that the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act would not be sufficient in the present instance.

He would beg Lord Grey to recollect one circumstance,—it was necessary for those sitting in judgment on delinquents to examine evidence upon oath, in order to form a • correct judgment of the guilt or innocence of the parties ; but lie feared that in conse- quence of the sy,-tem of intimidation pursued, there would be a difficulty in procuring evidence if means were not taken to protect the witnesses.

The Earl of Uxinurnaa defended the Marquis of Anglesea from the attacks of Lord Longford. The words "Agitate, agitate, agitate !" which had been used by the Marquis, only meant that the people should adopt every legal means to obtain their lawful objects.

The Earl of ELDON would give his support to the measure.

He hoped that whilst justice was done in all those cases which might have arisen while it was in force, the close of the Act would not be marked by the impunity of some of those who should become guilty under it. Earl Grey would remember an instance of the kind which occurred at the expiry of the Proclamation Act. A party who had pleaded guilty, and whose case had been adjourned over, had been allowed unavoidably to escape with impunity.

Earl GREY said, that as to the specific time to be named in the,bill itself, during which it was to be in force, he had left a blank in it, which could be filled up in the Committee.

He feared that it could not be allowed to cease as soon as could be wished, but the sooner its extraordinary powers could be dispensed with the better. He should be glad to be enabled to propose its repeal in the present session, if circumstances should per- mit. At present, it was his intention that it should be in force until the next Session of Parliament, and to the end of that session; Parliament in the mean time taking such measures for its repeal or further duration as circumstances should require.

There was no provision in the bill for such a case as Lord'Eldon had mentioned ; but he should be happy to receive any suggestion to meet a case of the kind referred to, should it be considered necessary.

Lord BROUGHAM said he would support the bill, on the ground that it was necessary and effective.

With respect to the threats and intimidation of witnesses, he thought that the nature of the measure itself would restore confidence to the people, and that the certainty of protection would induce the well-disposed to come forward to aid in the restoration of order.

Lord ELLEN-BOROUGH thought that the bill should be well examined. He had not heard sufficient to justify the measure; and doubted the • propriety of reading a bill, even for the first time, which reenacted almost all the strong measures which had been passed against Ireland for many years, upon the mere statement of the Ministers. He wished Lord Grey had produced some documentary proof,—for the notoriety of the alleged disorders was not sufficient to justify the House in passing so highly penal a bill. He wished to know when the bill was to be read a second time? Earl GREY—" On Monday.,"

Lord CLONCURRY suggested the propriety of deferring the passing of the bill, till the effect of the proposed measure of conciliation had been fairly tried.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE thought it extraordinary, that Lord Ellenborough should be the only one to call for documentary evidence to prove the necessity of the strongest measures for the suppression of Irish disorders. There was an evident necessity for acting without

delay. T Earl of WICKLOW agreed with Lord Ellenborough in the pro- priety of not proceeding to legislate without documentary evidence- It was contrary to all precedent to do so.

The bill was then read a first time. The second reading is fixed for Monday, and the Lords are summoned.

5. NAVAL AND MILITARY SINECURES AND PENSIONS. MT. HUME raised a discussion on this subject on Thursday. lie had on a former occasion complained of the King's Speech for omitting to mention the distresses of the country, or to hold out any hopes of a reduction of taxation. The measures which were recommended to be used towards Ireland also formed a subject of complaint ; but as Ministers, by their motion of Tuesday night on Irish Church affairs, had agreeably dis- appointed him, so he trusted that he should find them ready to meet his views on the subject of economy and the abolition of sinecures. He was induced to bring forward his motion, without waiting for the Esti- mates for the year, because the sinecure appointment of the Governor- ship of Berwick had been filled up since the meeting of Parliament. The Governorship of Londonderry had been .filled up during the past year. A Lieutenant-Governor of the Tower had also been appointed since the last session.

New, such appointments must he prevented, if that reduction of expenditure which the country required was to take place. What was the state of the finances of the country? Ott the 5th of July last, there was a balance of 1,210,COO1. of expenditure beyond the receipts. That fact, in the eighteenth year of peace, was one which would make every- body—every man of sense—agree Avith him in saying, did not show a good state of finances. According to the statement which Lord Althorp made at the end of the last session of Parliament, he anticipated that in the Year ending on the 5th of April next, there would he a surplus of 773,000L Ile hoped that 1.ord Althorp's anticipations would prove correct, but or one could be sure that they would. However, supposing that they were then di-ducting that surplus from the deficiency of last year, it would leave a deficiency on the too years' accounts of only 476,0011.; so that the people ntight hart if they wished to avoid an increase of loans, they must have new taxes in order to meat that deficiency What, then, ought the House to ? They must look on every side, for the purpose of discovering the means of reducing the apendi- tme, in order that they might avoid both new loaa and new taxes.

Almost every numerous constituency in England (except those of the two Universities, ‘VhiCh he knew were Conservative) bad called loudly for economy. He read a paper, which he had treasured up for the proper occasion to produce it, and which was a return to the House of Commons in lfz1 9, and signed " H. Goullmrh."

This document stated, that the Honourable H. C. Windham, the Secretary and Clerk of I:notionalt s in Jamaica. received for that iaffice a sum of 4,500!. a year ; I hat be hail been in p■,,,:e,:iott of it shim 17(;:3, and .luring the z hole of that time had resided in Engla I. Ou the wholo, that geLtletnan had received a.sum of 2.3.i.ltff0/. of the public rion.v f a sinecure ottk. The next person mentioned in the paper was th, I lonour- Percy Windha : who had received from :mother ;in,..eure °nice the sum i,f334.000/. allele went four o: her site:mires mentianed in the same paper, maul:mint; in the whole to LeG2,000/. which ,vi •t: individuals had received, in a coarse of years, from the public money. Calculating lie -rest and compouud interest on the sums paid to these duals, they would appear enormous; awl the sum Would be more II rat ida i de as hen it was recollected, that white the country had interest to pay on money bin-rowed, every farthing ex:fended that was nut merited, was so much in reduction of the means of paying the- interest of our debt .

One great good had been gained by getting the Tories out of the saddle,—the people had got behind the curtain ; the mystery of these places and sinecures could be kept up no longer. lie reminded the House of the reports of Mr. Bankes's Findrice Committee in 1809-10, and of Mr. Davies Gilbert's resolution in 1810, by which the House was pledged to do away with sinecures and offices executed by deputy. He said, it was particularly fortunate that Lord Althorp had evinced a decided disposition to concur in the principle here laid down, by stating his intention to bring in a bill to abolish all sinecures in the Church— to remove those clergymen who had done no duty for three years. It was said that naval and military pensions were granted only to old and meritorious officers—

But, in a list which he held in his hand, the aggregate amount of which was 33,0001.. there was one of 175/lo the Gryernor of Dartmouth, which was held at one time by &Mr. Holdsworth, a civilian, and who, on the motion of a right honourable member, was re- moved on that ground.

He feared that sinecure appointments were sometimes given to un- worthy men— Who was appointed Lieutenant-Governor of the Tower in the room of General Loftus ? Undoubtedly some officer of long standing, who had done great service to his country ?—ht was the Earl of Minister ? Good God ! Could any thing be adduced to prove that such a plan should be pursued? That nobleman was now Governor of Windsor Castle, which he understood was an honorary situation ; and he had no ob- jection to see honours scattered far and wide, or to see men serve as amatemsa- (Laeghter.)- But that nobleman was succeeded in the Lieutenancy of the Tower by his brother, Lord Fitzclarence, as be understood by the public papers,—which he hoped thIis instance did not speak the truth ; for what services had he done, or what reason.. sourcLbe brought' forward, on the part of the Government. for placing him in that skull, tian f Who was this Lieutenant of the Tower? He entered the Coldstream Gnat& bp the 12th of May 1814, so that he could not have seen a shot fired. (Laughter. and 'Crier of " No.") He begged pardon—he had forgotten Waterloo ; but he would ask the honourable member who cheered was Lord Fitzclarence there ? (Hear!) If put in comparison with many offieers whose merits would entitle them to rewards which. they did not receive, the result would he that be must sink.

He instanced the Governorship of Berwick as a perfect sinecure there was no cannon there—it had all been removed to Edinburgh : there was no duty to perform. Blackness, Carlisle, Chester, the Lee- ward Isles, St. Kitts, Montserrat, and other places, all had Gover- nors, or Lieutenant-Governors, who were non-residents.

If the First Lord of the Admiralty voted for the exclusion of the Governor of Dart- mouth on the ground of his being a civilian, and if in the case of Sir Harry Neale he could lay down the principle that the duties of a Governor-of a fort and a member of Parliament were incompatible, because a man could not be in two places at once—a principle, indeed, which had never been admitted before, though he hail often advanced. it In that House—he thought the House could not refuse to go with him, because he was only carrying out the same principle. He called upon the House to act upon the principle recognized ill 1810; and concluded by proposing the two following resolutions .ars.s. •• 1. That it is the opinion of the House, that the utmost attention to economy is all branches of the public expenditure. which is consistent with the public service, is at all times a great and important duty.

" 2. That the esistsnce o Sinmure Offices, and Offices executed by Deputy, in the Army and Navy Departments, is unnecessary and inexpedient as a means of remuue- sating public services."

Mr. Roiussosr seconded the resolutions.

The great argument for maintaining these sinecure places was, that they afforded the Means of rewarding meritorious officers ; but. in his opinion, it would be m well to leave the Cues of those public servants to the consideration of Parliament, who, he was onfident. wordd not be indisposed to grant ample compensation to all persons who Were entitled to it. Another reason for keeping these places was, that they enabled the Ministers of the day to 'Propitiate the favour of such individuals as possessed great parliamentary influence. That was an argument which could not. apply to the present Ministers; and he therefore called upon them, and he called upon the House, to affirm .She proposition of tho Member for Middlesex.

Lord ALt11011.1. agreed in the general proposition that all unneces- sary expenses should be put an end to. He thought that the discussion in which they were engaged would have been better postponed till the .Estimates for the year were brought before Parliament ; when there would be an opportunity, by a substantive motion, of expressing an opinion on every one of those places. It would be recollected, that when in opposition he had always voted against the abolition of these places. He was therefore guilty of no inconsistency in opposing their abolition now. He said that Ministers did not deserve the imputation of having deserted their economical principles. Great reductions had been made in the Naval expenditure, for which they ought to have due credit. Besides, He was very much ahaid, that. in dealing with a case of hardship, the House would allow itself to be carried beyond the merits of the question. That. he believed, would 'belles fault of any popular assembly ; end there was a much greater likelihood that the House would grant a larger sum of money in such cases than justice required. In .a constitutional point of view, too. there was an objection to allow the House to dis• pease rewards to officers of the Crown. It always haul been considered, and always /Must be considered. in a mixed monarchical government, that the disposal of patronage of that kind rested with the King. For both those reasons, he was disinclined to take tho course recommended by Mr. ilemo.

An alteration had been made with respect to the Lieutenant-Gover- .sorships of the West India Islands—

By the new arrangement. one General-Governor was appointed for several islands, and resident Lieutenant•Governors were nominated for the smaller islands. In this =sinner all the sinecure offices were abolished, and a saving of 17,0001. or 18,0001. ef- sleeted to the public.

The Governorship of Berwick had been given to Sir James Bathurst, who was formerly one of these Lieutenant-Governors of the West India Islands, and who had been compelled to give up his office.

Ile had been Military Secretary and Deputy Quartermaster-General in the campaign et the Peninsula, and it was impossible for the Crown to overlook his merit. That was not a ease which Ministers could have brought before the House, but it was just such a case as called Ilsr compensation ; and MS Majesty had therefore been advised, as a reward for his services, to appoint him to the Governorship of Berwick, one of those situations which it was the object of the member for Middlesex to extinguish.

He concluded by saying, that he did not object to the first resolution, but could net concur in the second. He therefore should move the previous question.

Colonel DAvies contended that all sinecure places should be alm- lished. Military appointments were too often given to individuals whose only claim was the possession of Parliamentary influence.

Mr. BERKF.I.EY would support the resolutions. It was impossible for any man who was acquainted with the condition of the labouring poor not to oppose the abolition of all sinecure places.

Lord G. LENNOX could not agree to the second resolution, but he supported the first. His relative the Duke of Gordon was Colonel of the 1st Royals, a regiment 'which bad been in India for twenty- four years. It was a sinecure tindoubtedly. (Loud cheering from the Opposition.) Mr. 111714E-" It is not a sinecure."

Lord G. LENNOX-Thu member for Middlesex said It was not a sineenre, while the actember for Dublin seemed, by his cheering, to have a different opinion of the subject. Me would leave t hem to settle the matter between them ; but he was ready to admit that, in his opinion, the situation was a sinecure. Still he doubted the policy of abo- lishing such sinecures. If they did away with these places, in what situation would they place the officers of the Army ? Let them recollect, that a Major-General, after having risked his life and spilled his blood for thirty or forty years in the service of his country, had not more than I7s. a-day.

He would not deprive his Majesty of the power of rewarding such ill-paid and meritorious men.

Mr. O'CONNELL said, it appeared to him that there was no sinecure snore deserving of the notice of the House of Commons than the one which had been mentioned by Lord George Lennox.

Hem was a noble duke, possessing large estates and a vast income, who received a great portion of the public money for which he rendered no sera ice. That was a state eof things that could not be continued. The Reform Bill was intended to give good and cheap government. Were not the People from one end of the kingdom to another actually screaming for a reduction of taxation? How could they take off taxes when they would not consent to the abolition of these sinecure,?

He put the question to the Reformed Parliament thus-4 Will you, or will you rot, vote for the abolition of sinecures?" " Upon that point," said Mr. O'Connell, "let its divide."

Colonel Wii.i.raws supported the motion.

s' I stand here," said he," as an unwilling member of Parliament. (A laugh.) Yes, as an unwilling member of Parliament, for I was seat hete by my constituents against my will. (Laulhter continued.) I usurer saw my constituents till they sent me here. +(Laughter.) They never knew tne-i Roars of lauyhter)-..thes never saw me until I went to thank them for the confidence they reposed in inc. Ana what were the grounds sof their confidence ? Because I bad been, and because they knew use to have been, the unflinching opponent of all unnecessary expenditure within the sphere of my local influence; because in every hamlet, township, and hundred with which I was connected, 'I had always stood sentry over the public purse. I therefore embrace this. the tint aopportunity that has ofTered itself, to state the line of conduct which it is my determi- ^nation to pursue here. I have a great respect for his Majesty's present Government : it is the only honest Government which has existed within my recollection. (Great seheerese.) The members of it are the only men whom I would trust with the public purse. But if they should fail in their promises, if they should not fulfil their plualma a pursuing an unflinching economy in the disposal of the public money, that moment I shall withdraw from them my support. (Cheers.) I look upon all the arguments which would hang these sinceurists on the public purse as so many sophisms. In all public grants, we ought rather to consider the wants of those who contribute them than he wants of those on whom they are contributed. The sinecurists. generally speaking. are not in want: but my constituents Pre. I have been amongst them and I know . them. (-Cough.) I have not been unobserving of their wants, nor of the wants of the People of England. I believe that there never was such a mass of distress, agri- cultural. manufacturing, and commercial, as there is at present in the country: and I Shall therefore never consent to give away a single shilling that is not absolutely neces- sary for the public service." (Cheers) Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, he pledged himself annually to his con- stituents to pursue the most rigid economy. He should be ashamed to present himself before them if he broke his word. While, however, he

.Mad voted almost invariably with Mr. Hume on motions for retrench-

ment, he would remind the House, that he bad opposed the reduetis of these Military and Naval appointments. They could not be abolisht with advantage to the public, in a political, moral, or economical psiz of view. He had fulfilled his pledges of economy. • In his departnet. he had reduced the expenditure by one million annually, without tf, minishing the efficiency of the Navy. He had got rid of twelve cos, missioners, some with salaries of 800/. and some of 2,0001. per annus His colleagues had not been behind himself in their economical els, tions. During the last year, there had been a saving in efficient salmi of 284,0001. ; and the whole reduction in the Estimates amounted; 2,800,000/.

Had this rerInction been a mere barren reduction of office? No. it was accompas by a reduction of taxation to the amount of 1,800,0001. The deficiency in the retm ltatl now ceased ; and he believed that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would it, year, for the first time for ma ny.years, have it iu his power to prove to the satisfate

of th b

e House that we ad a bona fide surplus of revenue above expenditure, arising k from increased, but front diminished taxation, and from an economical managemosu the public purse to which it had been very long a stranger.

The appointments, which it was the object of Mr. Hume to do asu with, differed from pensions_

Theiremoluments did not attach to their offices, but passed annually under the re Mon of the House of Commons ; which had the posies of 'narking its dissatisface with the claims of those who held them. by withholding the salary usually paid fortis support.

Sir James stated a number of facts connected with his departmer to prove that he had not disregarded the principles which he avowe when out of office. Out of five royal yachts, he reduced three: tl other two were kept for the especial use of the King. The other sip, cure offices in his department were those of two Generals of Marine four Colonels of Marines, a Vice-Admiral, and a Rear-Admiral England. Their united salaries amounted to 4,7401. He then re: the names of those officers who had held the appointments of Vic: and Rear-Admirals. They were Lord Rodney, Lord Howe, Lot Bridport, Admiral Cornwallis, Sir W. Young, Lord de Saumarez, Lord Exmouth : And he challenged the House to say that the salaries attached to these appointees were misapplied, if signal services and eminent gallantry displayed in a hundred figii had any claim upon the gratitude of the country. (Cheers.)

Sir James remarked, that as to the late appointment of Sir E. Thep, borough, an opportunity would be given for discussing its propristr when the Estimates came to be voted. He likewise defended the a. pointment of Sir G. Martin to the office of Rear-Admiral. He us the friend of Lord Nelson, and was with him at the battle of St. Vir, cent ; which, by the way, occurred on the 14th of February, the yen day of the year on which this motion was made. The emoluments the office were only 385/. per annum. Sir James concluded by deck ing, that

lo his conscience he believed that he should betray the King whom he served. an; what was more. the People whose servant he was proud to be. and whose approtok he was eager to secure. if in seeking the transient popularity of the hour,-a popull rity of insignificant value, when compared with that permanent and durable goods'. which the People always showed to those who honestly sought their real interests,--S consented to a motion which was calculated to unnerve the energy and to decrease tiu efficiency of the Army and Navy. (Cheers.)

Mr. ROEBUCK complained that the present Ministry were anxious it uphold every old abuse—(Deaferting cries of" No," and murmurs.) When he said that the Ministry were anxious to uphold every old abuse, he had nu finished his sentence. He meant to have said "Every old abuse connected-with tbi public expenditure." (Cries of" Oh!" and esermers.) The attempt to do away with these sinecures was the first attempt at economy, and he regretted that Ministers opposed it. It was nit that these appointments differed from pensions—

That point he must beg leave 'to deny, for a sinecure might be annually voted as vg as a pension. There was also another difficulty in their present mode of proecedin Au appointment was made by Ministers first, and then the People were called upeoE pay the salary attached to it. Now, Ministers ought to askus lint for the money, a if we gave it them, should then make the appointment. (Coughing and cries of "Qs(' tion."1 He was aware of the impatience of some honourable members, but he nese theless would continue his address to the house. He might not have a very captive ing mode of addressing them, but he would still go on dischargiug his duty to his as st ituents.

It was bad logic to argue, that because many useless places had ben abolished, others should be allowed to continue. The reason tit taxes were not repealed, was because the expenditure was not lessenet Why, then, is not that expenditure reduced in every possible way ?.

Major BEAUCLERK said, that nothing was more hurtful to the feel ings of British officers than the existence of those sinecure places§ rewards for military men ; not that there was any aversion felt in th service to the adequate remuneration of military services, but becaus they saw that such places were not, in general, given as rewards to tht most meritorious, but to those who had most interest in that House.

Captain YORKE denied that the efficiency of the Navy was main. tamed.

He had seen the docks at Portsmouth within the last six weeks, and he had nen seen any docks so clean swept. There were neither stores, nor timber, nor masts, a cordage. Ile thought that if a line-of-battle ship were to put into that dock with er loss of in mast, to be refitted, there would not be a lower-mast found ready for her in it n hole duck.

He would not cut down the patronage of the Crown. The Crow ought to be supported. He was anxious for popularity, but he wouk endeavour to obtain it by supporting measures beneficial to all classes and by supporting the honour and dignity of the Crown.

Mr. CORBETT supported the motion.

" When 1 entered the house this evening, almost the first word I heard from the Fis Lord of the Admiralty, was that he despised popularity. Now I would just ask IN right honourable gentleman, how many addresses he received from the people at flu time when he brought forward his grand exposition of the 113 swallowers of the publiu gold ?" At that time. Sir James professed to be very much pleased with having an a motion which satisfied the People. That was the crime of Mr. O'Connell she pieta the People, and was perpetually attacked for doing so.

Mr. Cobbett then made some remarks upon the evils of the present system of taxation.

On every occvsion that a proposition was made for the reduction of taxation, it ve inked how would they pay the interest of the National Debt ? It had been suggests/. he recollected, by one of his Majesty's Ministers-but before be was lathe Admins tra: ion-to take thirty per cent. off that interest, without in any way regarding hoe the Furelholder was to suffer. Now Mr. Cobbett's suggestion would be.instead of rob- bing the holder of the Funds, to destroy all sinecures and diminish all pensiona lb great objection to taxes was, that, while ranch was received, scarcely any part wassue plied by the nobility, clergy, gentry, or the rich part of the community. (Laughter.? Stop but for five days and' he would prove it to demonstration. (Laughter.) 0,1! wait until the Estimates were brought forward. and if it was not shownelearly that aid was the case, he was much mistaken. (.41 lough.) In fact, he had no =nee in-sairisl, -filet if the nobility, clergy, and gentry of the country, had paid theft Aare of the tales for the last. fifty years, there would not be one farthing of the National/ Debt due st the present moment. (Loud laughter.) Those might well laugh that pocketed the money; but would the People laugh ? Any one could make those who won htugh, but it was something to make the loser do so. He, however, did not altogether de,uair 'even of that. (Lan/der.) Sir James Graham, when he brought forward his celebrated . statement relatice.to the hundred and thirteen sacks of money yearly plundered by some ',members of the Privy Council, quaintly enough observril, " If this does not make an impression, nothing will." Now. as Sir James had been two years in office, and the same state of things still existed, Mr. Cobbett would take the liberty of observing, that, if the facility with which Ministers forgot their pledges to the country (lid not make an smpression on a Reformed House of Parliament, nothing would. ‘Cheers.)

Sir RONALD FEneesoNt required further investigation into the sub- ject, before sanctioning the second resolution. Therefore, though he -generally vetted for all Mr. Hume's " motions of economy, he should oppose his present resolutions. Sir OSWALD MORLEY said, that he had hitherto supported Ministers, but would oppose them on this motion, because, though he did not object to a fair remuneration of public services, he thought all men should be paid according to their work. Mr. Sum. begged that no member should consider the question at issue as to the continuance or abolition of the offices in question.

The real question was, whether his Majesty's Ministers should have the power to -coder rewards on the public servants,whether they were to be the medium through which the gloriously maimed and illustriously mutilated—(L021d laughtff)—they might laugh, bat he saw no reason to retract the expression, he saw no reason why those who were wounded in defence of their country, should not be considered as gloriously maimed and illustriously mutilated.

He objected to postponing. the decision on this question till the Estimates were brought forward. It would then be said, that it was cruel to deprive men of offices which had been given to them. He would not allow personal consideration to have any weight. The House should decide upon it as an abstract question, without reference to in-

dividual cases. •

:Sir Join: HonnousE said, that the question was, whether the control of rewards for services should. continue, as heretofore, in the Executive, or be placed for the future under the control of the House ,of Commons.

It was not a question of pounds. shillings, and pence ; but the question was, whether tlre Commons shall have the distribution of military rewards ; or, as hitherto. it be left to the discretion of the Crown, throttgh. the medium of a responsible Ministry, and subject to annual revision by Parliament. He begged honourable members not tu be carried away with the idea,' that those offices were given on the same terms and under thesame conditions with pensions. There was this great difference, that'pezisions granted from the Consolidated Fund were not liable to redskin. Whereas each of the offices in question were annually liable to he revised by Parliament ; and they might depend upou it, that in case of any gtoss instance of abuse, the House would take it up as it had the puwer to do.

No gentleman could say that the pay of superior officers was corn. _mensurate with their services ; and he protested against the application -of the word sinecure in this instance. it would be as just to call hdlf.pay a sinecure. He Mentioned the names of some of the persons Who held 'these appointments. They were 'almost all most meritorious officers, and Many Of them quite infirm.

lie could not help calling to mind an observation of Mr. Hume, the other day, which at the time amused him very much,—that all men who took a large part in public mat. ,ters, like Mr. Hume himself, should keep things in a proper traits by making Ministers a little uneasy. (Laughter.) Mr. Hume himself ban acted most zealotialy up to this principle. for he had contiuned to annoy every Ministry Ile had ever come in contact with. With'respect.to himself, he could assure Mr. Hume that his plan had succeeded to his heart's: content, for he had not hail an hour's peace since he entered into offiee. It was no pleasant thing for him to come down every day to the House, to be badgered by so ingenious a gentleman us Mr. Hume.

He was certain that the popular feeling was quite in favour of Mi- nisters; and instanced as a proof of it; the failure Of the meeting which was to have been held that morning in Westminster, to petition for the Vote by Ballot and the repeal of the Septennial Act and the Assessed Tuxes. He felt certain that the Conduct of Ministers would not be misjudged; and that they might look with confidence for their reward.

Mr. STRICKLAND had all his life been a decided Reformer and as -such a decided enemy to all sinecures ; but he should vote for Ministers -in the present instance, from a feeling that Mr; Hume's motion was a mere abstract proposition, which would not save the people one farthing, land about which they did not care one farthing. He wanted Reform -to be a substance.

• -Mr. LABOUCHERE should vote in favour of Ministers, considering the questionto be a constitutional rather than an economical one. He ihoped never to .see this privilege turned over, from the Monarch, to whom it was given by the Constitution, to the Parliament' u change -which he was convinced would entail great evils on the country. He 'denied that the dock-yards were in a bad condition, or that the Thames -was open to invasion.. Notwithstanding the great retrenchments effected in that department by the present Ministry, all the Naval stores were lin much greater quantity and in better order than under the late Ad-

.ministration. . .

Captain YORKE admitted that the dock-yards were in a good state.

Sir E. CODRINGTON, though' he should prefer receiving the grant ?from the -legitimate source, would still gladly receive the additional approbation of this House.. He considered the half-pay and pensions :granted for services as a just delt,-and riot; aecOrding to the opinion 'very generally entertained, as a retaining fee.

Sir Fitaxcis BURDETT said, the tone of debate assumed by some :members might have some effect on the -Corn Exchange of Dublin, or at Covent Garden, but was misplaced in the House of Commons. He maintained that the holders of these appointments, the continu- ance of which was attacked, Were not sinecuristi, but emeriti. Calcu- lations had been Made as to the savings which would have accrued if the salaries and pensions of certain Speakers and others had never been *ranted. We were told that if the money laid out in the payment of these pensions had been put out at Compound interest, it would have amounted to enough to pay off half the National Debt.

These were the sort of pieposterously theoretic-al arguments usually made by Mr. Hume, which Sir Francis said had nothing whatever to do with the question. Appeals rto figures were always misleading. and never more than in this instance. Btu even if they were not misleading, he could conscientiously vote on this occasion against the motion; because he was satisfied, that the question was of comparatively little impor- lance ; not of sufficient importance to justify them in impeding the proceedings of Ministers, who were detained from much more important public business by such debates.

There were certainly great projects on foot-

.0ne honourable gentleman anifouneM thin lieWa4 V.+ Naito that the rich paid nci taxes. Ile should v glad to !MVO that mask out: and glad to %fie any plans by width the taxes—which were a burden tu all—could be distributed and arranged so that no man should feel them.

Sir .Francis said that the Coloneley of the' DeIke of Gordoh was no' sinecure— Mr. O'Connell old,' !seep all regiments from passing letcalhe hands Of noblemen,- and he would keep ;di dukes out of the Army—describing tbitir rewards as sinecures • which they received for their services. But what would be the effect if the Duke of Gordon were not to take his pay? Why, the effect would be ithrftbztL LIU nian %Iould to into the Army who was not able to live wholly without it i7arils, or who had • .nothing else but its pay. And what would be the CUIISNIIICIICe t ha: All regiments must be given to those who were not gentlemen; and a great writer heil ailthat, in the leading profession of arms. no man could expect to command o ho was not a geu- tlemau. (" Hear, hear ! Oh oh! No, no !")

Ile would oppose the motion, though there was not likely to be any risk, mid them

-

fore no merit in it ; but if there were all po-i'de risk on his part, and Ileaciloe a great

deal of merit in opposing it, he should tie so, ;old du it conscient ; nd ler should do the same if he were speaking iii the Parliament on College I:teen, I lu1i he Might not do it there with the same safety. ("Ikar. hear ! Questi.n, quystie.n.") - Mr. MAURICE O'CONNELL reminded Sir Francis Bartlett, W110 made allusion to speeches at College Green and elsewhi r, thet ehere was such a place as Palace Yard.

Sir Francis was now supportiug sinecures, thoagh for twentydive years, in evert speech he hail uttered, and every address he had sent forth to his einistitilents. be bail abused sinecures as the plagutsspots of- the State. In one of his a.!■Iresses to the elec- tors of Westminster, before he was sitting on the Ministerial side or the tense. he not only talked of sinecures as evils. but he told the People not to rest till they bad made all the sinecurists disgorge all that they had ever taken hipast times of the:r ill -gotten and enormous wealth. (Loud cheers.) •

Mr. 'BRISCOE would oppose the resolutions. If be voted for them, be should be voting for a great constitutional change, while he gave no. relief to the people of England.

It was a great constitutional principle that the control of th, Amy sboal I lie placed in the hands of the Crown, subject to the ante of that House.; but the L:otion wouli vest the control of the Army directly in the House. • 'Mt. HUME replied. • • • Mr. Labouchere ha(1. said that in a Monarchy there mist sineeeres ; atal Mn. Briscoe Says this is a great constitutional question, and that the is going to take the command of the Army, But if fit' sinecures be geed s lY lot five. hundred or live thousand ! (Aro, no ! Oh, oh?) tr it me: go, ,1 ill prbwilee, let them follow up the principle, and establish as many sinecures as posAlole. Sir Francis Bur- dett talked of courting popularity ; but no man had done so more than Sir Frauds himself; and though he may do so no longer, let him not blame Bum, who are only imitating his former example. ((Myers.) Ile bad long opposed the Tory faction, be- cause they gave all the offices of the State to the dependents of the Al L-slueruce ; .but what does he now say?—Why. that all tile officers of the Army must be genaiinwu. (" IVo, no ! !fear, hear!") Sir Francis actually asserted that no man could iispect to be a successful officer who was not a gentleman. Why, what was Naplimn before be was an officer, and what were many of Napoleon's hest general's? A mire preposterous pro- position than Sir Francis's be had never heard. He objected tO sinecures in principle, and he had introduced the discussion ou principle only.. They were payments., but pay- ments under a false name.

.Sir -Ronald Ferguson had said that he would vote for the motion, if any ()ilia the offices was a complete sinecure.

\MY, here was a case of a man holding an office in Canada, who hat never tea

England. • Was not that a sinecure? S with the w i101illSt. ut one of them hardly was a resident at the place where hiS office was, and every such oflieewas a complete sinecure. He confidently claimed, therefore, the vote of Giutetal Ferguson. There was the ease of Admiral Cockburn, who was now on his way to the Weer I nilies, and wltiy a General of Marines.. Could any thing he a mine complete sinecure than that ?` He made thiS Motion with no view to harass the Governmeut, but to warn it lie had never SVell sinecures (though be was almost ashamed to sat' it) half so well defended. by the Tories as they now-were by the .Whigs.

The people were resolved that these sinecures should be abolished, because they considered them the Means of corrupting members of Parliament. Ile called upon the House, if they valued principle, to vote for his motion.

When the Speaker put the question, the " Ayes " were so loud and numerous, that the Speaker declared in their favour. The House, however, divided : for the Motion, 138; against it, 2.32 ; Ministerial majority, 94.

• Mr. HUME then moved for returns of the members of this House holding offices under the Crown, the date of their appointments, de- scription of offices, and the amount of their emoluments.—Agreed to. Alsofor returns of the members of the Jamaica Council, the offices which each held, and the amount of their emoluments. When he ob- tained these, it Nviis his intention to make a motion on the subject.— Agreed to.

6. EMBARGO ON DUTCH TRADE. Sir ROBERT PEEL, on Friday„ entered into a very long exiunination of the right of the Government to

suspend the trade with Holland, upon the mere authority a an Order in Council. The Order suspended the statute law of the land ; and the Crown had no power to do any thing of the sort, lie denied the

necessity or propriety of passing this Order, or of forcibly detain- ing the vessels of a friendly power. The people of this country were not living under the control of Orders in Council signed by Charles. Greville. He doubted the efficacy of these measures to bring Hol- land to terms. They might stimulate her to a degree of exertion and resistance that was unlooked for. He trusted Ministers would seri- ously consider the question of their continuance.

Dr. LUSHINGTON maintained that the Orders in Council were in conformity with and justified by the law of nations. The peace of Europe was endangered by the conduct of Holland ; and it was the duty of England to take every precaution to preserve it. For this purpose, the embargo was laid on Dutch. vessels, and the convention with France was signed. He maintained that the embargo was laid in anticipation of hostilities. It was not a civil embargo. It was therefore. perfectly competent in the Government to lay it on by an Order in Council.

MT. BARING complimented Sir Robert Peel on his "remarkable" speech. He was of opinion that Government had mismanaged this Belgic question. With respect to the legality of the embargo, had he still been in business, he -would have tried that question with the Crown, upon the detention of any vessel of his about to sail for Holland.

Sir W. HORNE defended the legality of the Order in Council, upon the ground that it was a precaution against really intended acts of - hostility.

Mr. Pou.ocit said, he could prove, by reference to undoubted au- thorities, that the embargo had been laid on against all recognized prin- ciples of international law. Sir J. CAMPBELL maintained, that the embargo was a mild measure to prevent war. A municipal embargo was illegal, but this was purely international, and therefore perfectly legal.:

Sir T. SCARIITT denied that there were any reasonable grounds for expecting a war with Holland, and therefore the embargo was illegal.

Lord PAMERSTON defended the embargo, because, although we were not at war with Holland, there was a possibility of war arising. The authority of Lord Stowell proved that, consistently with the law of nations, an embargo might be imposed in some cases, even when hostilities were not at all in contemplation. He entered into a long defence of the conduct of Government in the late Dutch and Belgic negotiations; and concluded by declaring, that if Ministers succeeded in preventing the reconquest or partition of Belgium, they would effect more for the peace and security of Europe than had ever before been effected by any political arrangement.

Sir R. VYVYAN thought that the Belgians were to blame for the present state of affairs on the Continent ; and he considered that Holland had been treated with great injustice. He wished for peace. The insinuation that his side of the House desired a war, was unjust. But we were now at peace, and yet doing all the injustice which a state of war alone could palliate.

7. CHARGES AGAINST THE MARQUIS OF SLIGO. Lord TEYNHAM, on Monday, moved for certain papers to substantiate a charge, of which he had previously given notice, against the Marquis of Sligo, for im- proper conduct in his office of Lord-Lieutenant of the county of Mayo. Lord Sligo, it was averred, had applied to the Lords Justices of Ire- land to place the barony of Gallew, in the county of Mayo, under the Peace Preservation Act, in order to serve the electioneering purposes of a relative, who was a candidate for that county. The state of the barony was said by no means to be such as to demand so strong a mea- sure. Lord Sligo also had acted without consulting the resident Ma- gistrates; and had only called a meeting, at Castlebar, of sixty Magis- trates, who were ignorant of the localities and state of Gallew, and who coincided with Lord Sligo on the faith of the evidence which he laid before them.

The Marquis of &deo, in defence of his conduct, entered into a de- tail of numerous outrages which had been committed in Gallew; and stated, that his previous correspondence with the Government would prove that some time before the election he had been alarmed for the peace of that part of the country. He strongly denied having been in- fluenced by any sinister motives in what be had done, and expressed his confidence in being able to rebut all the charges made against him.

Lord MELBOURNE, Lord LORTON, and the Marquis of CLANRI- CARDE, expressed themselves satisfied with Lord Sligo's defence.

Lord TEYNHAAI reasserted his conviction that lie should be able to prove his charges.

S. LUNATIC COMMISSION BILL. On Tuesday, Lord WYNFORD opposed going into Committee on this bill ; on the ground that suffi- cient information was not laid before the House to enable them to legis- late discreetly upon it. He objected to that provision of the bill which empowered the Chancellor to reduce the number of commissioners in a commission de lunatic° inquirendo from three to one. He objected also to the appointment of three commissioners to visit lunatic asylums. The expense of travelling all over England and Wales, in the execu- tion of their duties, would be very great. Who were te, pay their ex- penses? the public or the lunatics ? As the law stood, the Masters in Chancery had the care of lunatics and their property,—could not the Chancellor direct them to perform the same duties which he proposed to assign to these travelling commissioners?

The Earl of ErnoN wished for the delay of a few days, to enable km to furnish the House with the facts gleaned from his long expe- rience in these matters. The Lord Chancellor could appoint three or more commissioners, according to his discretion. He thought that three or more commissioners were better than one. As it was a sub- ject of such very great importance, he trusted that the delay which was .asked would be granted.

Lord BROUGHAM thanked Lord Eldon for the benefit of his great experience, and would certainly postpone the measure till next week. He thought that Lord Wynford had misapprehended the nature of the bill. Its object was to reduce expense, and to effect an improvement in the mode of conducting lunacy commissions. There was a separate commission issued by the Crown to the Lord Keeper, investing him with the care of the persons and property of lunatics. The Lord Chancellor had not the care of lunatics ex-officio: as the law then stood, the Chancellor had no power, as Lord Wynford appeared to sup- pose, to empower one person to conduct an inquiry into the state of a lunatic. This hill would confer that power, and thereby lessen the expense materially. It was proposed that a commissioner should sit in all contested lunacy cases, like a Judge in Nisi Prius. Cases would be much sooner decided by one than by five commissioners. The late Lord Tenterden had decided cases in one or two days, which would have occupied the commissioners several days. The number of Chan-

cery lunatics was four hundred or thereabouts : their property had been supposed to be about 150,0001. per annum; but upon the receipt of the

return, he found it was nearly 200,0001. per annum. He did not.see how the Masters in Chancery could visit lunatics in the country. There were ten Masters in Chancery; who would, according to Lord Wynford's suggestion, have forty lunatics each to take care of. But who were to attend to the duties of their offices during their absence? He thought that each board should consist of one Commissioner and two medical men. He would always be ready tolop off useless places ; but would never be deterred, by the fear of losing popularity, from the creation of new ones when they became necessary. With regard to the expense of his scheme, he proposed that a small fee fund should be charged upon the estates of the lunatics, in order to defray it.

The bill was ordered to be read a third time on Monday next.

9. POOR-Laws. Mr. SLANEY, on Monday, asked Lord Althorp whether the report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of the Poor-laws was ready, and whether Ministers would make any proposition on the subject this session. Lord ALTIIORP said, that

the report was nearly ready, but declined giving any answer to the other question. On Thursday, in reply to a question by Sir THOMAS FREEMANTLp Lord ALTHORP said, that it was not the intention of Government to originate any measure on the subject of the Poor-laws. Until the Commissioners had made their report, he could not say what cola se , Ministers would adopt. Mr. SLANE]: urged Government to attend to this subject. The Labour-rate Bill, he said, had not proved very advantageous. 211r. COBBETT thought that it would be a great improvement, if farm servants and agricultural labourers were lodged and boarded with their masters.

10. CORPORATION REFORM. Lord ALTHORP, on Thursday, moved the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the state of the municipal corporations in England, Wales, and Ireland, and to report what abuses existed in them, and what remedies it would be most ex- pedient to adopt. He did not anticipate any opposition to his motion, as the gross malversation of some of those bodies was notorious. In many towns, the corporation was the fruitful source of contests and hostilities between different parties of the inhabitants. It would be culpable in Government to allow such a state of things to continue without examination, or an endeavour to remedy it. He had united the inquiry into Irish corporations with those of England and Wales, because, as a general rule, what was right for a corporate body to do in one country was right for it to do in the other. He thought also, that a committee formed of members of the United Kingdom would be more likely to be an impartial one, than one composed principally of Irish members, among whom great differences and keen feelings existed.

Mr. OSWALD regretted that Scotland was not united in the same inquiry. The abuses in Scotch corporations were still more flagrant than those in England and Wales. He moved that the words " Great Britain" should be inserted in the motion, instead of " England and Wales."

Mr. IlumE seconded the amendment.

Mr. JEFFREY (the Lord Advocate) regretted that he was not pre- sent when Mr. Oswald commenced his remarks. The reason why Scotland was not included in the motion of Lord Althorp was, that Government intended to proceed to the reform of the corporate bodies in that country in a more direct and simple way. There had been abundant information already collected, to prove the gross abuses which prevailed in the Scotch corporations. Lord Archibald Hamilton had moved for committees of inquiry into them year after year ; and further inquiries were unnecessary. He would explain the mode in which corporations in Scotland, formerly liberal, became rotten and corrupt— In the year 1469, the whole of the liberties and privileges of the burgesses of Scot. land were struck to the ground. By the arbitrary statute of that year, the nomination ofthe Magistrates and Councils was declared at one sweep to be no longer fit to be in- trusted to the burgesses, to" simple men," as they were termed ; and it was enacted, that in time to come the existing Magistrates should nominate their successors. The course, therefore, with respect to Scotland vvas plain and simple. All that it woula be necessary to do was, to repeal the statute to which he had alluded, and provide at once a popular constituency. That remedy had been prepared; it was very simple, and would be comprehended in a single, direct, and, as he hoped, satisfactory enactment.

Mr. Hi= said that he had been on a Committee for four years on this subject, and could assure Mr. Oswald that very full disclosures had been made on the abuses in the Royal Burghs. He recommended him therefore to withdraw his amendment, which was accordingly done.

Mr. JEFFREY said, that not the Royal Burghs only, but all corpora- tions were to be included in his bill.

Sir R. VYVYAN thought that this measure had better be postponed. Other subjects of greater importance pressed upon the consideration of the House. It would have been better if Ministers had brought in a bill at once, instead of moving for a Committee ; than which there could not be a more unfit tribunal to try the merits of the corporate bodies in England.

Sir M. W. RIDLEY said, that Sir Richard Vyvyan should point out a better mode of proceeding than by Committee, if any such existed. He defended the conduct of the Corporation of Newcastle ; who, he said, were quite ready to meet the proposed inquiry.

Mr. O'CONNELL expressed his great gratification that the state of the Irish Corporations was to be inquired into. It showed the vilest ingratitude on the part of the English Government in former days. The Catholics had fought for the Stuarts ; and yet, immediately after the Restoration, acts were passed to exclude them from being members of corporations.

The state of the Corporations in Ireland was very notorious. The Corporation of Cork, a close corporation, had at their disposal 70.000/. a- year. The Corporation of Dublin, a close and narrow corporation, had at their disposal (including the expenses of the' police) 50,0001. a year. So close and narrow was the latter, that although for forty years the law had. permitted Roman Catholics to be members of the Corporation of Dublin, not a single member had been admitted. He considered the proposition of Lord Althorp, however, as a good omen of the future.

Sir R. INGLIs inquired whether the Committee would have power to call for charters ?

Lord ALTHORP replied, that they would have no more power than any other Committee.

11. LAW OF REAL PROPERTY'. Sir J. Campbell obtained leave, on Thursday, to bring in several bills,—the first to abolish fines and recoveries, by substituting a simple deed; the second to do away with the Statute of Limitations, so far as related to titles to real property, by allowing a twenty years' adverse posses- sion as a limitation; the third, to alter the law of entail, that a father might inherit to his son, and a brother to his brother; the fourth, to alter the law of dower, that a woman having claim thereto should only enforce it out of that real property which her husband died seised of, and which was not demised by will—the bill to be prospective only : and the fifth, to alter the law of curtesy, that the husband should be entitled to his wife's estate whether there were children or not, but if any children by former marriage, only to take one half. Being connected with the Government, it was thought better that be should not re-introduce his measure to establish a General Registry of deeds; but Mr. William Brougham had given notice of a bill for that purpose, which should have his earnest support.

Mr. O'Connell hoped that these bills would be extended to Ireland.

12. THE OATH OF ROMAN CATHOLIC MEMBERS. Mr. LANGDALE, in

topenin„rs the debate on the Address, on Monday, wished to have the question ooted by Dr. Lushington, on the preceding Friday, set at rest, as to whether Catholic members (of whom he was one) had a right to legislate upon the temporalities of the Established Church. This was a matter of great impor- mice.

, It should be remembered, and he would press the point emphatically, that he was be representative of a large body of Protestants. If, therefore, under the interpreta- Ssfazi4tion .01 the oath as given by Dr. Lushingtou, he was incapacitated from stating his ,n on any given subject, to that extent his constituents Ivere virtually uurepre- 4 t...i Ile conceived that the legislative functions of all the members of the House Mr. O'CoNsteras said, that oaths were to be construed according to the mean- ng Of those who imposed them. His plain interpretation of the oath taken by 'Catholic Members was this,—that Roman Catholics were bound equally with the Protestants to support the Church Establishment as long as it existed by Jaw ; but, as a legislator, he considered it perfectly competent in him to make any proposition for, or be a party to, the altering of that law. This was his !understanding of the oath which he had taken. If he was wrong in his interpretation of it he would say, in God's name, let him he . pelted forthwith ; for he Would not remain there liable to be charged with the quirocation of an oath. ' 1:3• ADMISSION or Ma. PEASE. On Monday, the report of the Committee -se

on the Quaker Affirmation case was presented by Mr. Wynne. They had

examined the Acts of Parliament, and searched for precedents ; but had only fouud three which bore upon the question. One case was that of a member of -Parliament, Mr. Archdale, who had been returned for Chipping Wycombe, in the reign of William the Third; and who was held to be disqualified from taking his seat, in consequence of his refusal to take the oaths of abjuration and supreinacis The two other cases occurred in the Courts of Law, and were both decie ell in favour of the Quaker. The Committee reported no opinion on the matter referred to them.

Mr. Wynne, however, expressed his own opinion by moving, on Thursday, as follows-66 It appears to this House, that Joseph Pease, Esq. is entitled to take his seat in the House of Commons, on making his solemn affirmation to the same effect as in the oaths which are taken at the table." Mr. Wynne said, that the law placed it in the power of any common informer to raise the ques- tion in a Court of Justice, whether a Quaker, on taking his seat without the oaths, was not liable to the penalties imposed upon such asmay take their seats 'under such circumstances. The question with that House therefore was, simply, . whether they ought to admit Mr. Pease to take his seat? They had nothing to do with the consideration of the penalties to which he might expose himself 'by -0 doing. He expressed his decided opinion, upon an examination of the law of I he case, that it was the bounden duty of the House to admit Mr. Pease men his making his affirmation instead of the oath. sir J. CAMPBELL (the Solicitor-General) seconded the resolution ; and went into a detail of the law respecting Quakers' affirmations. He hoped that the resolution would pass unanimously.

The SPEAKER then put the question. The " Ayes " were almost universal, and not one" No" was heard. The Speaker gave his decision amidst great cheering.

Mr. Pease took the affirmation and his place last night.

14. ImPRISONMF.NT FOR BLASPHEMY. Major BEAUCLERK, on Thurs- day, presented apetition signed by several individusls, praying for the release of

all persons imprisoned for blasphemy. The petition particularly alluded to the case of Mr. Robert Taylor. Major Beauelerk regretted that any persons should be found opposed to the doctrines of Christianity, but disapproved entirely of punishing them for it.

Mr. COBBETT expressed his abhorrence of the crime for which Taylor was imprisoned—

But he thought it singular that his imprisonment should proceed from those who cheered when petitions were presented for the emancipation of the Jews. Why, if they emancipated the Jews, that people would be on a footing with Christians. They would make them Judges and Justices of the Peace. Ile would oppose every attempt to unehristianize the country.

Mr. HUME said, that he was sorry to hear the remark which fell from Mr. Cobbett.

That an act of injustice had been perpetrated towards one person, was no reason why it should be continued towards another. He hoped, when the bill was brought before the House, that Mr. Cobbett would act on a more liberal principle. He had himself received a petition on the same subject from Mr. Taylor; and as he had been two years in prison in a most miserable condition, he hoped his Majesty's Ministers would take his case into consideration.

Mr. O'CONNELL detested the blasphemy of which the petitioner had been guilty, as much as any man ; but did not like the principle of punishing for a difference of creed. Besides, it did not tend to diminish, but rather to increase. the crime of blasphemy.

Mr. PRYME said, that as, probably, many of the members of that House, like himself, were members of Missionary Societies, they sought to propagate their creed in countries where a different belief prevailed, and the inhabitants of which would, perhaps, view them in the light of blasphemers. He thought it, therefore, highly inconsistent for such gentlemen to seek the punishment of any man who aimed at the propagation of opinions different to theirs. It was not only inconsistent with their own conduct, but also with the spirit of the Christian religion.

Mr. Kixtocar supported the petition.

Lord Amoroar said it was not a Government prosecution. He agreed with Mr. pryme, that nothing could be more improper or disadvantageous than in- stituting prosecutions for the sake of preventing argument. But when, instead of attacking religion.by fair argument, it was attacked by ribaldry and exhibi- tions of gross indecency, the case was altogether different, and no person of a serious mind could refrain from expressing his disgust ; though he feared that even then no great advantage arose from prosecutions.

15. JEWISH Disanirigies. Dr. Lushington presented a petition, on Tues- day., from one thousand Jews, praying for relief from the disabilities under which they laboured. This petition would have been presented by Mr. Robert Grant, but that gentleman was prevented by illness from attending in his place. He then gave notice, that Mr. Grant would move on the 14th March next for leave to bring in a bill for doing away with the civil disabilities which affected the Jews.

Mr. O'Connell expressed his intention strenuously to support the bill.

16. CHURCH PATRONAGE IN SCOTLAND. Mr. Oswald presented OR Tuesday a petition from Dunlop, respecting Church patronage in Scotland. He said that the matter was of great importance, and would soon be regularly brought before the House.

17. ELECTION PETITIONS. Petitions complaining of the uneue return of members were presented on Tuesday from Newry, Cork, and Galls ay.

18. ELECTIONEERING EXPENSES. Mr. HUME, on Tuesday, moved for cer- tain returns relating to the late elections. It was desirable that the House should have before it the number of voters enrolled under the Refs tin Act, and the number polled at each place, and also the expenses incurred by the candi- dates to the returning officers and other persons. He bad reason to think there were very great differences in these charges : some were very extravagant, others more moderate. It was right that the interpretation put upon the Act bk returning officers should be ascertained. He wished in the next place to ascer- taM the number of revising barristers, the time they bad been employed, and the sums paid to them ; also the monies paid by the county treasurers for bills connected with the elections. He had intended to move likewise for the ex. penses incurred by Overseers in preparing lists ; but they were so small that it was scarcely worth troubling the House with that motion. Ile moved for four returns ; which, after a few words, were agreed to.

19. BRIBERY AT EseerroNs. The standing order respectim, bribery was read on Wednesday; when Mr. O'Connell proposed an antedrucut, which would render the conduct of the unsuccessful candidate as well as the successful one liable to inquiry before a Committee. This was agreed to. Sir J. Campbell suggested that bribery after the election, and treating before the arrival of the writ, should also be considered as illegal practices.

Mr. O'Connell said, that the undue interference of Peers ate. I ect.ons ought to be made the subject of Parliamentary inquiry, and moved for the appointtuent of a Select Committee for that purpose. Mr. Ruthven alluded to the remarks of the Marquis of Salisbury ; svho said that the House of Commons was the receptacle for vagabonds, gamblers, and men of broken fortunes, and asked whether proceedings ShOuld not be instituted against the Marquis for the libel. Lord John Russell thought that it would be best to take no notice of such nonsense.

At the suggestion of Mr. Hume, Mr. O'Connell postponed his motion.

20. Sid Mutter sNeasr. The Marquis of CIINNI)0S, on Wednesday, in allusion to a correspondence which had been published relative to the with- drawal of Sir H. eale's appointment to the command at Portsmouth, asked Sir James Graham whether it was intended to consider the occupying- a seat in Parliament as a disqualification from being employed in the iictive service of the King ? Ile contrasted the ease of the Admiral commanding in the River

with that of Sir H. Neale. -

Sir JAMES GRAILIn replied, that a distinction ought to be made between the case of a member of Parliament placed in actual service by Government, and that of an officer on active service choseu it member of Parliament.

21. :WASTER or TUE REPOILT Orric E. Mr. Hume, on Wednesday, mentioned that the Master of the Report Office, whose fees derived from the Court of Chancery amounted to 4,5s9/. Ils. lid. per annum, Avas dead ; awl he wished to know whether the appointment had been filled up. He thought that the House ought to be informed Avlienever any vacancy occurred iu a public office, in order that Members might inquire into the expedieucy of filling it lip again. He gave notice, that on a future day he should propose a resolution to this effect, —" that all offices to be tilled up after this date shall be subject to suet' altera- tion of duty and deductions of salary as the House or the heads of departments shall make."

Lord Air:mane promised to make some inquiry into the circumstances :men- tioned ; of which he was till then in ignorance.

22. RFnucnos or TAXATION. Mr. 111131E asked Lord Althorp, on Tuesday, whether Ministers intended to make any reduction or modification of the exist- ing taxes? Lord ALTIIORP said that this was only the first month of the quar- ter; that it was well known that this was a quarter in which the expenditure always exceeded the revenue ; and that, therefore, as the amount of reduction, if any could be made, would depend upon the balance at the end of the quarter, it would be impossible for him at the present moment to answer the question. He could only say, that at present the balance-sheet looked favourable.

2.5. HOUSE AND WiNnow TAXES. Mr. Clay, in presenting a petition on Tuesday from Shoreditch for the repeal of these taxes, said that if the matter was not taken up by other hands, he would submit a motion for their repeal . himself.

Mr. Cobbett said that their operation was partial and oppressive. Dr. Lushington hoped that Ministers would speedily take the matter into their consideration.

Lord Althorp said, that he could give no information on the subject, till he brought forward the Budget. On Wednesday, Sir Francis Burdett presented a petition from the parish of St. Ann, Westminster, for the repeal of the House and Window Taxes. Sir John Hobhouse said that the whole City of Westminster was anxious for the repeal of these taxes. He was convinced that Ministers would attend to the prayer of these petitions if they could do so consistently with their duty.. Sir M ab . W. Ridley, Mr. petitions, and others, supported the petition. General Palmer the same day presented sundry petitions from Bath and other places to the same effect. Mr. Gore Langton, Mr. Tynte, and Mr. Roebuck supported them.

24. BANK CHARTER. Lord Althorp, in answer to a question put last night by Mr. Herries, stated that he would bring the question as to the renewal of the Bank Charter before the House as speedily as possible; but that he feared he must defer it till after Easter.

25. EAST INDIA CHARTER. Mr. Charles Grant, on Wednesday, in answer to a question by Mr. Baring, said that lie hoped to bring forward the subject of the renewal of the Charter of the East India Company before Easter. The evidence on that important matter would soon be ready for delivery.

26. Usunv-Laws. Lord Althorp, on 'Wednesday, said that it was not the intention of Government to bring forward any specific measure respecting the Usury-laws.

27. BIRMINGHAM RAILWAY. Sir G. Skipwith, on Tuesday, presented a petition for leave to bring in a bill for the Birmingham Railway.

28. COURT OF EXCHEQUER. In reply to -a question from Lord Granville Somerset, Lord Althorp, on Wednesday, said that two bills were in preparation for regulatiag this court.

29. STANDING ORDERS. Lord Althorp, on Wednesday, said that, as the Standing Committees had never done any business of consequence, lie should move that the order for their appointment be negatived.

Mr. D. W. Harvey said that the Committee of Public Justice ought not to be abolished. A Committee of the whole House could never deal properly with such cases as that of the Baron de Bode, for example.

Mr. Baring reprobated the improper practice of allowing members to nominate those who were to sit on the Committees for which they moved. Mr. Littleton said that, originally, Standing Committees were appointed for political purposes. They were the emanation of violent times, when the Commons' House risurped all the powers of the State. They tended to produce the Revolution—a beneficial event however for the country. Now, however, they might be dispensed with.. Mr. Goulburn agreed that they might be advantageously abolished. He said that with respect to the consideration of pecuniary claims in Committees, the orders of the House prevented any unfair practices being adopted, such as Mr.. Baring alluded to. It was, necessary that an officer of the Crown should say that the claim was a just one, previous to. its being considered in (.:ommittee. The order for the appointment of Standing Committees was then negatived. • 30: LATE S/rEiNGS OF THE HOUSE. A petition was presented OR THOS.! 'day, by Mi. OnsWild;-friiiii tile parish of Dunlop in the West of Scotland, on the subject of the late sittings of the House. Mr. Cobbett said, that all night-work was bad. It was the time when bats, toads, frogs, and all noxious vermin commence operations. He had ten petitions to the same effect as the one now presented; and should soon have a hundred, which he would present iti,a heap.

' Mt. O'Qonnell thought the convenience of the House should be first consulted —the master before the servant.

Lord Althorp said, the Ministers would give up the present arrangement of course, if the House wished it, although it was certainly a convenient one to them. Mr. Attwood thought that those Members who made such long speeches ought not to complain of late hours and shortness of time. Mr. Pleuntree, on Wednesday, also presented a petition from Kent against the late sittings of the House. The petitioners stated, that a healthy and vi- ' goroua eystem of legislation was incompatible with late hums.