Eltbatt4 ant Proccrbingit in Vinliament.

IRISH CORPORATION REFORM: CONDUCT OF THE IRISH GOVERNMENT.

- In the House of Commons, on Tuesday, Lord JOHN RUSSELL, after the paragraph in the Royal Speech relating to Irish affairs had been, at his Lordship's desire, read by the Clerk, brought forward his motion for leave to bring in a bill " for the regulation of Municipal Corporations and Borough Towns in Ireland." He said that though he felt no immediate apprehension as to the result of his motion, he approached a subject of such magnitude with great anxiety. So much misapprehension prevailed with regard to it, that he should have consi- derable difficulty in placing the policy of the Government towards Ireland in its true light. With respect to the bill itself, it differed but slightly from the measure which the House of Commons had sanctioned last year.

The principal alteration related to the appointment of Sheriffs. By the bill of last year, the Councils were not allowed to have any voice in the appointment of these officers : he now proposed that the Councils should submit the names of three persons to the Lord-Lieu- ttnant, and if he should deem it right not to appoint any one of the three, then the Council should recommend three more, and if all of these were considered improper persons, then the Lord- Lieutenant

could select any person he chose. Having thus explained to the I louse the chief point of difference between the present bill and that of last session, Lord John Russell went on to declare, that the principle which was involved in this measure was that on which the Irish policy of the Government rested, and that he was prepared to justify that policy. " I feel it necessary upon this occasion, especially after some statements that have been made and some resolutions that have been recently entered into at a certain meeting in Ireland—( Cheering and laughter)-1 feel it necessary to state the grounds on which the Government of Ireland has proceeded as an Ex- ecutive, and the grounds on which we have proceeded in recommending to the Legislature to act in conformity with the proceedings of that executive authority ; and I think it right to state, that I consider this a question of vital importance to the present Administration. I am fully sensible of the evil 0, bringing forward bills year after year, and suffering them to be defeated and lost, without taking any further step upon the subject. I think it right, at least we should consider it right, that Parliament and the country should have full time to consider the nature of the Government that we have established in Ireland, and to consider the measure and propositions that we have to make; but I do not think that we could permanently go on, or that we could be junly entitled to ask for the confidence of this Rouse, which hitherto has never been withheld from us, if we, continuing an Administration, suffered principles to be applied with regard to the government of Ireland against which we de- cidedly and positively protested. It seems to me that there can be no question, more simple, that there can be no question more direct to bring this argwieem

to the test, than the bill which I shall this night propose. It is a question not properly interfering with any religious prejudice, not capable of being

twisted or inverted by a curious display of figures. It is a plain question of right, whether the Irish people are fit to enjoy those rights which you declare are conformable to the constitution of this country, or whether you will proscribe them as unfit, and proclaim them as an inferior race a people.'

Before he proceeded to justify the policy of the Government, he begged to state, that when he had to look out for a great authority on the constitution of this country, he did not refer to Lotke or Blacks stone, but to the authority, the precepts, and the maxims of Mr. Fox—. (Loud and protracted cheering); and he found in a speech of that great man, delivered in 1797, the principles on which the Irish Govern- ment should be conducted. Mr. Fox said, in his usual flank, it might be incautious manner, that concession should be made to the people of Ireland ; that if he found he had not conceded enough, he would concede more ; and that he knew no other way of governing the people of Ire- land than to please the people of Ireland.

"My wish is (said Mr. Fox) that the whole people of Ireland should have the same principles, the same system, the same operation of goaernment; and, though it may be a subordinate consideration, that all classes should have an equal chance of emolument; in other words, I would have the ohole Irish Go- vernment regulated by Irish notions and Irish prejudices; and I firmly believe, according to another Irish expression, the more she is under the Irish Govern- ment the more will she be bound to English interests."

Afterwards, in 1805, when Mr. Sheridan told Mr. Fox that the then Prince of Wales, his late Majesty, wished the Catholic claims to be postponed, Mr. Fox said that, having undertaken to present the Catho- lic petition, there could be no discussion on that point ; but that, had he not been pledged, nothing would prevent him from performing the public act of all others which would give him the most perfect satisfac- tion: no event in his political life could give him so much pleasure. Thus, Mr. Fox acted on the principle that an act for Catholic Emanci- pation should be a living act of Parliament, not inoperative, but really a bond of union and equality between the two countries. Upon these principles of Mr. Fox, he maintained that Lord Mulgrave had conducted the government of Ireland- " He has endeavoured to do that which, I must say, had not been fully done

before, to carry into every it of the Irish Government the spirit of im- partial justice. When I say t has not been done before, much as I admire the character of Lord Mulgrave, I am not going to place him nor place those who sit here above any Governor or above any Ministers woo have governed Ireland before; but I will say, that while Lord Mulgrave has governed Ireland with the most upright, with the most impartial, and with the most generous intentions, he has had this advantage, that his Government has been one and united. Ile has had the advantage of having a Chief Secretary—( Very loud cheers)—an Attorney and Solicitor-General, all acting in complete accordance with himself; and I will venture to say, that although the office of Attorney-General has been placed in the hands of three different persons since Lord Mulgrave has assumed the Government of Ireland, if Lord Haddington had succeeded him at the Castle, not one of those gentlemen would have remained to act under a Tory Government. (Loud Ministerial cheers, and much laughter on the Opposition side.) This, Sir, is a question of considerable importance, because there is so much in the government of Ireland which depends upon the detail that is to be carried on in the different offices of Government, that any Lord-Lieutenant with the best and fairest possible intentions may not be aware of what the precise evil is, and what is the actual remedy that ought to be applied to it."

Lord John proceeded to lay before the House a variety of instances in which the administration of the law had been improved in Ireland ; especially referring to the regulation of Mr. O'Loghlen, that jurors should not be set aside on account of their being Catholics, and to the directions he gave to the Crown solicitors to prosecute all parties who could be convicted of engaging in the murderous fights at fairs so common in Ireland. Much good bad already been effected by the ex- perience of the people that acts of riot and insubordination would not go unpunished, but that the laws would be enforced with impartiality. By a perseverance in this course, there was a hope that the inveterate habits of the people would be subdued. The results of the improved administration of the law might be gathered from the charges of the Judges, and from comparative returns of prosecutions and convictions. And Lord John referred to the charges of Judges Pen nefather, Do- herty, Johnson, Burton, Foster, Perrin, Smith, and Bushe, when on their respective circuits in different parts of Ireland, for evidence of the diminution of crime and the general tranquillity of the country. It appeared also, that from Octo'oer 1832 to March 1833, the crimes of an insurrectionary character in Ireland were 6,894; while from July to December 1836, they were only 3,008. In Kilkenny County alone in the former period, there were 364 burglaries and attacks on houses ; while in the latter period, in the whole of Ireland, there were only 212. There were 183 attacks on houses in Queen's County in six months of 1832, being 47 more than in all Ireland in 1836. In 1835 the persons in- dicted for riots were 795; in 1836, 344. Of these many were for riotous processions on the 12th of July, which the lower class of Orangemen persisted in celebrating in defiance of the Government ; although many persons charged with similar offences had been dis- charged previously from prison, in the hope that after the dissolution of the Orange Society the offences would not have been repeated. Another important feature in Lord Mulgrave's Government was the impartial selection of persons for Government offices. Out of 835 Stipendiary Magistrates appointed by the Irish Government previously to Lord Mulgrave's arrival, only one was a Catholic. Out of the fifteen who had been appointed by Lord Mulgrave, six were Catholics and nine Protestants. That, he thought, was not a very unfair propor- tion of Protestants. He had an account of the religion of the per- sons appointed to other offices by Lord Mulgrave, but he did not wish to dwell on this subject. (" Hear, hear /"from Sir Robert Peet) The right honourable baronet cheered, but he should recollect that this was one of the charges brought forward for the purpose of poisoning the public mind against Lord Mulgrave, though the parties generally shrunk from repeating their accusations in Parliament. He would now advert to the charges preferred against Lord Mulgrave in certain

resolutions— . .

" When Mr. Fox stated what concessions he wished to be made to Ireland— which included an equality, that is, equal rights and an equal division and par- ticipation of emoluments—he said that these concessions would not give antis- to all. Who then,' he asked, would be dissatisfied by ouch canoe- siuns ? Not the aristocracy ; for I will not call it by ,o respectable a name. And is that miserable monopolizing nainority--(Loud cheering)—to be put in the balance with the preservation of the empire and the happiness of a whole people?" Now it is this miserable monopolizing minority—(Rcnewed cheering) —to which the name was so justly affixed by Mr. Fox ; it is the same miser- able minority which has not dared to bring finovard any charge in Parliament against the present Administration in Ireland, but which h is met and passed certain resolutions containing charges highly crinlinatory of Lord Mulgravss- charges which, if true, should insure that noble lord's instant dismissal; and although Parliament has been met a week, and although Members of both. Houses of Parliament were present at the meeting at which these resolutions. were passed, not one of them has ventured to give any notice that he will bring before Parliament these high crimes and misdemeanoure. With all stranger" carefully, excluded. and all opposition rigidly shut out, with Orange flags stream- ing in the air—(Loud and continued cheering)—they put and carried these resolutions, amid the shouts and applause of the multitude around them. It might be said, although it would be a weak and miserable argument, that in that House no one was willing to bring forward the subject, as they would not venture to encounter the strength of the support which his Majesty's Govern- ment had received from the majority in that House. This, I say, is a miserable argument ; because those who have cooducted an opposition in this country have known and felt that when they hail a right and a strong cause, though they might have only sixty, or fifty, or forty, or even thirty, yet with such support they felt bound to bring forward their measures; and I will ask by how many was Mr. Fox sported in his proceedings? By SO against 230. This, there- fore, is not a v argument. But is there not another House of Parliameat where this subject could be brought forward? What is their power in that other House of Parliament ? I have gut Lee a pamphlet which purports to be the twenty-eighth edition of a speech deliwred by a noble lord in the other House of Parliament, at the close of the last session—a noble lord of great abi-: lity. I do not know whether this is his speech or not ; but this pamphlet makes that noble lord say, that in the House of Lords the Ministry is utterly powerless, and that its wishes have no effect in that House. If this be the case, why do these gentlemen shrink from going before that House and bring- ing forward these charges? They have brought forward matters impeaching the conduct and derogatory to the character of the Lord. Lieutenant of Ireland, and yet they dare not bring his conduct before Parliament. It may he that,

after all they feel that whatever their majority may be in the other House of Parliament, it is not a majority for such purposes ; it may be that they feel, that however much they may gain the applause of such, packed meetings as I have alluded to, a majority of the other House of Parliament will not sanction such accusations ; but they should at least have the frankness and caudour to let this be known."

He the more readily believed that the parties who attacked Lord Mulgrave could not rely upon the support of the House of Lords, be- cause, last session, when Lord Mulgrave was present to answer for himself; nobody made any accusation against him ; hut some Peer

merely put a question to him regarding a Mr. Gore Jones and a Mr. Leigh, in answering which, so little interest did the subject ex- cite, Lord Mulgrave apologized to their Lordships for keeping them from dinner. Yet, after having abstained from making Lord Mulgrave's alleged misconduct the subject of legitimate attack, these persons got together a packed meeting of their partisans, at which they vented the grossest calumnies against Lord Mulgrave. He had been in the habit of giving that party credit for candour and frankness, but a more entire absence of such qualities than the conduct he re- ferred to indicated, he could not imagine. From a perusal of the

resolutions passed at this meeting, one would suppose that the Pro- testants of Ireland were suffering under all the persecutions inflicted oa the Catholics under the old penal code. He remembered the case of

a correspondent of the Spectator, who described the effect of a course of Medical reading upon his bodily health : when be pe- rused a treatite on gout he was afflicted with all the symptoms of gout except the real pain, and after having read all the accounts of asthma,.he became decidedly asthmatic : in like mariner, Lord John supposed tbat the persons at the meeting in Dublin, having read the old penal code, and the account of the sufferings of Catholics, imagined themselves :under all the symptoms except the pain, the practical suf- ferings andigrievances of the Catholics. In a country rapidly improving, these person came before the public with their tale of imaginary wo. Nothing could reconcile the to the loss of exclusive power. They had made tip their minds to.11t miserable ; reminding him strongly of the lines of an eminent livie$ author— Can ..ernadusss,e.til it folly,

Yen shall not clrew my grief away. Thebes such a charm in melancholy. I would not, if csula, be gay."

Some of the charges against Lord Mulgrave were so foul and false, that if they did not.result from the malignity of a peeked meeting, they would call for the fullest inquiry from the House. One of these was, that Lord Mulgrave had abused the prerogative of mercy ; a charge utterly false. Another came rather curiously from the parties who made it,—namely, that Lord Mulgrave had appointed persons of Liberal politics to office. Wiles could be more abets' d than to hear Orange non complain of places being given to partisans ? This, italeed, was the Gracchi complaining of sedition ! It was also asserted that Assistant Barristers and Policemen had been appointed for factious purposes; hut he utterly denied that a single instance could be adduced in proof of this allesation. He remembered in one ease, that a claimant of the franchise had swose his tenement to be worth 101 a year, and a gentle.. man, who never saw the premises and knew tiot'ling about them, said they were not worth 10/. ; and, because the Barrister took the oath of the claimant in pr,f,yonce to this teseimony of the gentleman, the County Magistrates refiesel to sit on the same belich with Iii.n; and this was the only case of the kind brought forward to back the calum- nious charge against Lord Mulgrave. Another resolution was 'for an address to his Majesty, assuming that the parties in this parked meet- ing and their friends, were the only faithful subject of the King in Ire- land, and that the great mass of the people were leagued to undermine and destroy the Protestant religion and the British cimnexion.

" Sir, 1 repudiate altogether the assumptions advanced by this knot of pees sons assembled in a ra en in Dublin. I say that his M ijesty nay trust to hie Parliament. I say he to ay trust to his Lord -Lieiren ant of fret IToh, aol to his faithful subjects in that caurorv.) I say that their zsal, their att:ation, and their loyalty, will preserve II-eta:1i ; a his Majesty and his sucee.s its on the throne, even though those gsit.1,:ti •:, inesting assetillilml, cues themselves nu further trouble in the matter, t, Great laughter and cheering.)

The General Association of Ireland was the subject of another of these famous resolutions-

" Now, Sir, I must owe, that if I rere to hear there was a general aeeocia- tion of Scotchmen net in Edinburele and that their meetings took place from

week to meek, and that they veneered various sums of money from week to week, and entered into %wham resolutions from time to time with respect to the government of that country,-1 confess that I should hear it with great regret; but I should reek what was the cause of that association : arid so I say with respect to Ireland. Sir, I very much regret that in Dublin, as I should that he Edinburgh, an ineOciation ehould exist of the nature alluded to ;

but I an obliged to inquire into its rouges; and when I aek for those causes, I End, se the forcible phrese of Loid Pluoket expresses it, that it is the spawn of you own wrong."

The history of Ireland was puinful to an Englishman to think of. it ealibited a series of persecutions and oppression. In the middle of the last century, the Duke of Bedford, an ancestor of his own, made an effort to alter the system. In 1752, being Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, he proposed to the Council that Catholics should be allowed

to register their names and perform the rites of their religion : but the

Primate urged, that any modification of the penal rode would be repug- nant to the Eritish laws ; and Chief Baron Willis said, that he would not tolerate that religion which it was the policy of England to perse- cute and depress. That was the policy that prevailed in 1752. At length the time conic when the persecution of the Catholics was a little relaxed; though, as Lord Grenville said, concessions were made in such a manner as always to appear the effect of fear. Thus, in 1793, when a French invasion was threatened, the petition, which had been scornfully rejected, and not suffered to lie on the table in 1792, was granted. And then, to go to 1829, how was the Catholic Relief Bill moied? He found In a speech of Lord Lyndhurst in 1828, an exhortation to the Lords not to give way to Catholic intimidation-

" Can the Catholics," seid Lord Lyndhurst, in reference to the threats of the Catholic Aesociation, "more diatinctly tell us they feel themselves placed in a eituatiou to extort from he Legislature, by dint of intimidation and threate, that which has so long been withheld ? It is true the sword is not drawn openly; but are your Lordships deposed, in the fare of a power of this aliuTelilt and anomalous nature, to admit the Catholic body, thus marshalled and orgsaisel, within the pale of the constitution ? "

Such It'116 the declaration of Lord Lyndhurst to the House of Lords a He said, You must not yield to threats ; you must not yield to intimida- tion' Wc!!, the intimidation was made more plain ; the threat was made a little louder ; and what was then the conduct of those who bad said they would not yield to intimidation ? Why, that very unqualified, unconditional submit- lion, which they said the threat of the year before had induced them not to yield. (Cheers. ) If that Minister had been in the situation of the traveller of the. fable, and the wind had not succeeded in taking off his cloak with its first gusto, it would have been found that it had only to increase in its rudeness and its strength to deprive him of his cloak : he would not have allowed to the sun the easy victory which it was fabled to have obtained. (A laugh.) Well, sir, but what is the lesson taught by this fact? What is the lesson which has been taught to the people of Ireland? Are these things without mark ? ( Or eat cheering.) What happened in the course of last year and the year be- fore ? We have heard lately of the formation of the National Association. As Tong as this Municipal Corporation Bill, which I intend to move to-night, was passing through the House of Commons, the people of Ireland confided in the Justice of the Legislature. There was no attempt to intimidate, there were no n ational associations formed by his Majesty's subjects there. It was after the measure had been loot, it was after their prayers had been rejected, and rejected n ot only with calm reasoning but with insult. It was after they had been re- jected, I say, with insult, that this Association was formed, and its meetings kId. Can we wonder at such things? Can we wonder that that which had been found successful on former occasion e was resorted to on this? And can I suggest a remedy ? Would it be, think you, that this Association, composed of several Peers of Parliament, composed of many of the Members of the House of Common:, composed, I have heard, of one fourth—an honcurable gentleman says arm third, of Protestants—would it be that this Association, so composed, should be suppressed ? Would that be your remedy ? No Sir ; your remedy ii to treat Ireland as you tteat England and as you treat Scotland. ( Great eheeriro.) As you have no Association in London, as you have no Association Ediubtiegli, depend on it that when the fair principle of equalityis found to be your inle, the people of Ireland will rely with confidence on the justice of the supreme Lmislature, and they will take no other method of redressing their wrongs. While, then, I regret the existeece of that Association, I cannot say tfiere Lao not been a plauaible motive for its formation, nor can I say that ehere is not en easy way for its suppression. ( Cheers.) It is that easy way which I a.ele you now to take. I tell you not—I should deceive you if I did— that &be. Corporation Bill is to be all in all, the panacea for the evils of Ireland : great end manifold are those evils, and large and manifold must be the reme- dies which the Legislature, which the Executive, which the Magistracy, which persons of property in that ccuntry, must apply to them : but I tell you this, that if yoa pass this bill largely and liberally, it will be taken as an evidence of the spirit in which you are disposed to legislate, and you will tameless difficulty in ant'. no repugnance to future legislation. It is a measure of which the princ;pIe:. arc known; it would apply a remedy which has been already tried ; ir would give rights to men whom you have no ispretence for distrusting. I thin' k file, was said of a great charucter of antiquity, That which Them- rocleehas proposed would IA very profitable Athens, but it would be very un- rea.y, I propose to you a measure which will be eminently profitable. It will be preatable in giving to you the hearts and affections of the people of !rebel(); it will be profitable to you in promoting the riches and welfare of the owns; it will be profitable to you in tending to produce greater order, a better droinistration of the law, and a more general confidence in your government. limit while it has all these advantages of profit, while it has all these motives of expediency, I especially recommend it to the House' I especially recommend it Parlismaat, on this ground, that I believe it to be just." (Lo,d John re- tamed hit seat umedst g, eat cheering.) Mr. Sergeant Jerome: delivered a speech of two hours in reply to Lord John Russell. He reiterated all the assertions of the Dublin meeting resolutions against Lord Mulgruve ; and especially reprobated the conduct of Mr. O'Loghlen in, as he said, giving orders that no ti iryrnaa obould be set aside—thereby affording the opportunity for euilty leen to escape. One ruffian had been tried by three juries, and eould not be proved guilty, although he was so notoriously. Mr. Jackeon laid great stress on the numbi rs of persons discharged from

plisor. 1,; Loid Mulgrave • who had exposed himself to the charge of abuain the prerogative a mercy. He bud appointed Mr. Cassidy, a noted anti-tithe agitator, to be a Magistrate of Queen's County, euntmee tithe wishes of Lord De Vesci, the Lord-Lieutenant of the eount7,. The appointment of Sir. Pigott, a Catholic, and an active member of the National Association, to be chief Law Adviser in the Secret:arc Office; was highly irapi °per. Mr. Wilson Greene, or Mr,

Ball, should have been madeSolicitor- General, 'instead of Mr. Maziere Brady. It was intended to make a person named Tighe an Assistant Barrister—another improper appointment. All these allegations Mr. Jackson declared himself prepared to prove before a Select Committee. He read portions of Mr. O'Connell's speeches and letters—one a the latter being dated as far beck as 1830—to show the dangerous extent of his designs ; and repeatedly charged Ministers with sub. mitting to the dictatorship of that gentleman.

Mr. O'CoNNELL expressed his pleasure at the violence of Sergeant Jackson. He bad been put forward as the champion and mouth. piece of the Opposition ; and unless Sir Robert Peel disclaimed him, Sir Robert must be held liable for the Sergeant's opinions, and the Orange policy be advocated. The people of Ireland could 110111 see what they had to expect—with the present Opposition in power, and Sergeant Jackson, 110 doubt, on the bench. Mr. O'Connell warmly defended Mr. O'Loghlen, Mr. Pigott, and Mr. Tighe. He observed, that a Select Committee was not the proper tribunal for trying Lord Mulgrave : if the charges against him were true, he ought to be impeached.

Mr. SHAW spoke after Mr. O'Connell. His speech was chiefly made up of extracts from letters of Mr. O'Connell, which Mr. Shaw quoted to prove the hostility of that gentleman to the British con. flexion : they also proved his strong attachment to the present Ministry.

Lord CLEMENTS defended the conduct of Government, and avowed his determination to give them all the support in his power.

Mr. ROMA:a, who was received with loud cheering, said that the discussion might have been conducted in a more useful way than that which most of the previous speakers had chosen— It seemed to him that the bandying about from one side of the House to the other, expressions that would not have been suffered elsewhere, was; not the way to conduce to the dignity of the House, or to the respect of the People toward; it It seemed to him that, standing as they did in the high character of the representatives of a great nation, they ought to conduct their deliberations with that calmness, soberness, and decorum that would gain them the respect of all reasonable and respectable men. It appeared to him, that the manner he said it under all correction — that the manner and tone of gentlemen, particularly belonging to Ireland, had been to-night, (and to night was not a solitary instance,) of such a nature—judging with the feelings of an Englishnian who had not mixed much with Irishmen—as was likely to create any thing but respect. It could do no service to anybody in that House or elsewhere to indulge in a specks—he was goiug to me a term, but he would not use it—of "improper vituperation." (Laughter.) It seemed to hint, that the object the House had before them was to consider the general conduct of the Irish Government—to know whether that conduct had been such as was conducive to the general interests of both countries, England and Ireland ; and he had seen and heard, with some astonishment, that when that was the matter to be discussed—and a more grave and serious one could not be submitted even to that assembly—persons come forward and bring evidence respecting words used, and matters 'discussed by an individual, who had a place in that House, and, he must allow, great power in Ireland, but which words were used upon an occasion not connected with the conduct of the Govern- ment, which was the subject they were at present called upon to discuss. Those were matters respecting which it was for the honourable and learned Member himself to decide; it was for his own taste and his own understanding to deter- mine what was due to his own character, and the character of those whom he addressed. Mr. Roebuck said he was not called upon in that Ileuee to give an opinion about those words, if it were true that they were spoken ; and, not being called upon to give an opinion about those words' he wanted to know why he had been compelled to hear them ? ( Cheers and laughter.) It was time lost, in the first place ; and he must at the same time say it was not very agreeable to his feelings. He did not think when he came to take his seat in that House, that it was to hear every extraneous thing which gentlemen might be inclined to utter. He thought he came there to discuss a question respect- ing the municipal corporations of Ireland. Ile must, however, charge it some- what (for he would be impartial) upon the noble lord himself for hewing intro- duced this very general discussion. That noble lord would have consulted the best interests of the Government if he had allowed the attack to come from the other party. Why should the noble lord have taken notice of any resolutions that might have been passed by anybody which were not directly before the House? Why should the House go out of its way to notice resolutions diet a small minority of the people had thought proper to pass? He thought, there- fore, the noble lord was somewhat to blame in this: at the same time he mu-t acknowledge, that there was atenmer and tone in the speech of the noble lord far different from what pervaded the speeches of those who had succeeded him. Four mortal hours had been wasted—(A cry of "Six r)--no he would not say "six," because all the speeches or parts of speeches did not fall under the same category. But he wished to get at the real value of the argument he had been listening to. The argument of gen- tlemen opposite was, that Mr. O'Connell bad in various places made use of coarse and violent expressions and that he had given vent at various times to various opinions; and therefore, Ireland was not to have the same municipal privileges as England and Scotland. That was the argument of the Opposition—the sum and substance of four long hours of dull declamation.

Now, supposing that the honourable and learned Member for Kilkenny had done what he (Mr. Roebuck) charged every political man that he had ever heard of, either in Ireland or England, with doing, that of never entirely amid completely stating the whole of his inteutions,—fin he made it a charge against political men generally that they were advocates, that they stated only cue side of the question, and were constantly saying to-day what they meant to unsay tmmor row. ( Cheers from the Opposttion.) He heard gentlemen out the other side of the House cheer, as if they were free from the imputation: good God ! lie could, if the time were fitting, go through the life of every political man that he saw upon that bench, and show that every one of them had been inconsistent with their own declarations. But supposing all this, and that the same charge was justly made against Mr. O'Connell, was that a valid reason to give his (Mr. Roebuck's) constituents fot having endeavoured to persurole the Commons of England to deprive them of their political rights e Suppose, by evay of illustratioo, the right honourable baronet the Member for 'fainworth bid ever changed his opinions—( Lutmhter)—or that the right honourable baronet the Member for Cumberland had changed his opinionse- (Renewed laughter)—or that the noble lord who sat between these two right honourable baronets had changed his opillione—( Continued laughter)— sumac all these extraordinery things, would that, he idler having missed the Reform Bill, ju,t;fy him in saying to tie House if Commons, " Here are three distinguished men in the Gevernment of the country, who have moat distinctly said ay to day and no tomorrow; and there- fore I call upon yeti wit to give to the people of England the power of govern- ing thenavlves or their municipal corporations?" (Laud cheers.) lie wanted to know what the People ef England would eay to that rpeciee of ergument ? they must desist from forming conspilacies against the lege) esee`wilt of He could not tell what the People of Ireland would think. It had been said tithes.

to-night by two learned gentlemen on the other side of the House, 'silo

rP tented, as they declared. a large body of the Irish People, that the Pectereof Mr. HENRY GRATTAN denied that the Association was illegal; awl

Ireland were tin& for municipal corporatioos. If they were unfit for muni- equally false was the assertion that it was Catholic. Colonel Cosiollg emu had stigmatized the members of the Association as rebels end tsaitors; ' I corporations, he could only say that it was lieceuse they were so much

like those two honourable and learned gentlemen. But he wiebed to lay it down now he was a member of the Association, and be dared anybody to call as a general rule, that the People of Ireland and the People of England and him a rebel or a traitor. The Members for Athlone, Queen's noonty, the People of Scotland, were all equally worthy of the right and of the duty of Drogheda, Sligo, Belfast, Cork, and Carlow Town, had good eeason self-government. (Loud cheers.) to hate the Association, for through its instrumentality they aeoald lose The argument of the Opposition, as stated last year by Lord Stanley, their seats at the next election : Mr. Vigors's return for Carlow was was that Irishmen were not fit to be trusted with the privileges of certain ; and as for Sergeant Jackson, his prospeetswere of n peraliarly

citizens— doubtful character.

Lord STANLEY—" I never said any such thing." Mr. LEFROY contended, that the ''. Association was an illegal body. Mr. ROEBECK—" The noble lord said that the Irish, in consemience He arraigned the conduct of Lord Mulgrave in releasing eo many

of their religious differences, were not fit to be trusted with municipal prisoners, and in setting aside gentlemen put on the Judges' lists for corporate rights. That was the whole tenor of the argumentation on Sheriffs. Mr. Leieh bad been set aside, on the ground that be was the other side. On that ground they sought to cut down the bill of connected with an Orange society: this was untrue, and Lord Mul- last session piecemeal, (and lie was sorry that Ministers bad in too grave had acted most correctly in appointing him this yea:. There many instances yielded to them,) on the ground that there were peen- were eight other similar cases, which would have been brought fcrward liarities among the Irish people which unfitted them for governing last session had they been known. themselves. Mr. Waitt.ee thought, that if the Opposition Members eleasok from

particularly the attentan of the Libeial Members. to this fact, that the from preferring charges of maleadminietration. The Natiesaa' Astasei- honourable Members opposite distinctly stated in opposition to them that the tion was the offspring of the House of Peers— People of Ireland were not worthy of self-government. That was their It arknowledged no other parentage. Under these eircumstat e. he called principle. (cries of "No, no !" from the Opposition and "Hear, hear !" upon Sir Ruhert Peel to shake off the lethargy that had been aroutd aim dues from the Ministerial Undies.) Asa hut it was so. 'He wished to state the ing the last week—to throw off the obligations and restraints inapesed on him naked truth, but even the naked truth id their own opinions was not agreeable by the Keane(' party around bim, and to acknowledge, as he did it lasa9—but to them. So apt were they to dress them up, that when they conic in an he would-read the right honourable baronet's own words : "1 attempted to unadorned shape before them, they could not recognize them as their own. maintain the exclusion of Roman Catholics from Parliament and i'r,ma office. Now he would assert, that the principle upon which he and those on his side I did so for yeas s ; but I must now yield to a moral necessity whieh Y cannot of the House went was, that the People of Ireland were nor distinguishable control." ( Great cheering.) That moral necessity has arisen again. I: cheer. Irons the People of England or of Scotland, and that they woe fitted for leg continued.) The will of the People of this country bad pr.-it...lain-A that selagovernment. These principles were as light and darimess. As they they would insist that Ireland should have equal rights and privileges, and the* approached nearer towards the one, so they leceded from the other ; and he they were determined to support Irishmen in their demands for jussem. If Ire. entreated his :Majesty's alinisters not to lend too easy an ear to the suggestions land ,vere denied on this occasion the enjoyment of those advantages s-hieh ' the that 'night be brought forward by honourable gentlemen on tie te I. er side of Municipal Bill of England had already afforded to this country, they sreulet the House, to militate against the great principle which laid been to• act both justly and wi-ely by proclaiming with one voice that the tame este- night recognized by the speech of the noble lord. He must say it had given bashed between the twit countries was a mere mockery and insult, to..6 that it say that- his AI irlit•try is dependent upon the fate of that bill, I am not fearful of ing their strength with the People. says, in a letter dated the 27th of January last—

Dublin, and was too happy to belong to the " miserable minority."

Ile %visited that :Ministers would listen to their friends, not to their that Lord John Russell had dwelt upon general and brouet urtnciplek monies-

ereat and important results, but had been encountered me'ely hy ta0-

He begged to press it on their !Mods, if they wished to continue Ministers, ?rated cases and minute details. To reply to these ellecetesne fell that this great principle of theirs—naniely, ilea the People were worthy of self-government—was their mainstay and support : that every step they made within his province; and therefore he should be obliged to trereeese for in can ying out that great and glorious principle of legislation was a step to in- some time on the patience of the House. Mr. Sergeant .feeteson hed sure arid strengthen their own power ; and that every single inch which they delivered a speech of great ability, undoubtedly, but combined with yieldel to false and dangerous suggestions coming from the opposite bench, too much of that acerbity which usually marked bin effutions, and weakened task dominion, by destroying the confidence of the People in them. which prompted lain to attack the (+erecter, the honour, and evon the Ile wished them to understand, and he wished the People of England fairly to religion of his opponents. Mr. West too had followed ia the same Understand, that the two parties in the State were now at issue with respect to track, and had declared that nobody could hold office under the present the whole Irish People upon the principle which distinguished that party to Government without degradation. Lord Morpeth applied 'lanai to which the honourable gentlemen opposite belonged from what he would call answer the various charges brought against the Irish Gov- 'meet by the real Democracy (if England. The opposite party declared that the People the Opposition. Mr. Jackson had accessed Mr. O'Loghlen of impro- were not wettliy of self-government ; he as firmly declared that they were. They woe at issue upon the question of Ireland—that, however, was but one perly setting aside jurors in criminal eases ; but Lord Morpeth etesved, great instance of the manifestations of the two contending principles. The that Mr. O'Loghlen's rule was this—not to set aside niver on the Irish Municipal Corporations were the subject matter, but the sairieiple of De. ground of his religion ; and the result had been an increase ri . the pro- ems:racy Was the thing that was really. involved. (Loud cheers.) Every portional number of convictions to prosecutions. Another c$.7.7 wis, soggeAtou, thesefore, that came from the other side of the House, would that the prerogative of mercy had been abused by Lord Multi..•-e IvC'71 come only with a motive to destroy the People's political rights ; every word, he would state the practice of Lord Mulgrave in this respect. - then, of theirs ought to be listenea to with caution. Ile would bee .ind en- " On his visits to the prisons, my noble friend is in the habit if reseiving treat his Majesty's :Ministers, if they were sincere in the many dechnsitions they reports on three distinct pniuts. From the local authorities he reesiees a 'T- had matle concerning the good government of Ireland. and coneerning the good port on the conduct of the prisoners during their confinement ; from the governme-it of England, not in any way to abase one jot or one iota of the bill medical men Le receivt a a report of the state of their health; front the eeigh- now brought in. " Enlarge it if you will, and make it what it ought tube; sewl booting gentlemen he receives a report of their previous character, and ot the it through this House; send it up to the other; and then, if the noble lord will probability of their amended conduct."

the result." (Loud and long.contihued cheering.) lie for uue would be a A reference to numerous 'documents, communicated to the Govern- sanguine con.bstant in favour of that great priliciple. He was wining to tight ment by Magistrates and Assistaiit Barristers, proved that in cerise- the epponents ef it foot to foot before the unshrinkiug stretiorli of the prudeut, quence of the vigorous and impartial administration of justices se,....1 the honest, generous people of England. To the People of Engrainl lie would trust refusal to allow rioters to escape by a compromise with prosecutere, a very the issue of this grand and high dehate—( Cheers)—to them he would leave its deciled improvement in the habits of the people had become el'ible- ultim ire derermsnatien; and certain he was that the victory would he with the eve!: in Tipperary, a county renowned for disturbances.. Tit. good right— with those who were fighting in that House for the real, right, clear, ths:- effected was inaterially augmented by the release from p-isau of and definite rule, that the People of Great Britain and Ireltnd were worthy to nee y persons, whose families were suffering severely from the weal of be their own governors. (Much cheering.)

6

not of an aggravated description. It was the general rule r.etterelease persons convicted of offences against the Revenue-lawa. Ac s eample The discussion on Wednesday was opened by Mr. R. DILLON of the letters read by Lord llorpeth to the House, we quote se !'ol- Bnower:; who spoke in defence of the policy of the Irish Govern- lowing from Mr. Howley, the Assistant Barrister in 1 'pre .7., : sed rent, and warned the Tory Aristocracy easiest the temerity of try- NIt. Phelan, surgeon of the Tipperary County Gaul. Mr. toteley Mr. WILLIAM ROCHE followed on the same side. "The civil bwitiess of the present session I never recollect to Io. ... eery, nor the CroW11 business so light. The mercy extended by his -xc.'!eney, Mr. LUCAS maintained, that it was unjust to tranefer the exclusive during his visit to this county, has fallen with a softening indocile. t 7s.t.ri the privileges now possessed by the Protestant Corporations to the Catho. popular miud, and has contributed much to the tranquillity which ?I.:, :di.o.:' ice, and upon that ground should oppose the bill about to be brought in. He identified himself completely with the Protestant meeting in The letter of the surgeon is dated from Clonmel, on the ':-1 ." ,tent; and is as follows— " Having lately :.(M-II some attacks on the Government, in censeqr•saa of tbe Mr. HARDY denied that the rejection of the bill would be an insult liberation of prisoners by his Excellency the Lord-Lieutenant, It a ,,,,,, 1 to Ireland. The Irish were not lit to be intrusted with such iiistitu- take the liberty of informiag your Lordship, that out of litty-seves. ...Comers lions as the Ministers proposed to give them. The present state of discharged from our County Gaul, by the Lord. Lint:armies cores •. 3s. eely tranquillity was but specious, and was produced by terrorism. The Irish one has been recommitted, though the interval that has elapsed '!: aealy iiiI ought to be told, that before they could receive municipal privileges, mouths. This solitary ease is that of an idiot. This Lifts:in-:tic. - -.r l.oitt. pose of pleasing honourable gentlemen opposite, the House would be ca:eel upon Mr. WEST reitesilted the charges of Mr. Sergeant Jackson against to cut down, alter, mutilate, ruin, utterly destroy the value "i anis bill. He Lord 51edgrave. lie gave his decided opinion that the Ger.eral Asso- thought this had been too much the ca-e last )ear; and lie was sorry to hear (dation was as illegal as the Catholic Association, which Mr. Canning that the noble lord had not enlarged his bill—that he had tint vele. teed e ;thin denounced. Ile di stied that Ireland was tranquil; and cited eceounta it the whole of the Irish Peoalc, awl so have gained, by one grand streke, their or outrages and a It ttsr from the Alliance Office, declining to insure hearts, their wishes, and their support, and had not trusted to the good sense of the lives of Protesttait clergymen in Iseland, to prove that the esins of England .ina of Scotland for in ant:a:line him and his colleagnes in that posi- the Protestants in that country were not so imaginary as those ef the ton in which they now stood. letsed :15 they then %voted have oven upon a great correspondent of tlw Spectator, quoted by Lord John Russell. nal glorious principle of legislation.

Lord MOREETH then addressed the House. He began he etating,

-ship may rely on, as I have taken care to ascertain its accuracy ; and further, it 113118 scarcely ever recurred that any such number of persons has left the gaol without some of them having been recommitted, even within a much Shorter period. It is therefore quite certain, that in this county his Excellency's cle • money has been attended with the best effects."

It was a charge brought by Sergeant Jackson against the Lord. Lieutenant, that he had commuted the sentences of prisoners, without consulting the Judges before.whom they were tried- " Now I take upon myself to say, that the present Lord-Lieutenant has not been surpassee by any of his predecessors in that most laborious considerae tion whtch he has bestowed upon all the criminal cases which have been brought under his notice, and which has formed the most onerous part

of his duties. I will also take upon myself to say, that it is, and always has been, his rule and practice to refer all cases to the Judge who may have presided at the trial uf the prisoners, when the point turns upon the cir. cumstances connected with the trial it :If. It has always been the custom in Ireland, (and I believe also in Englitiol,) that where special grounds are put 'forward, or upon numerous strong local representations being made, where the hiffen,.:z is of a minor description, the Judges who have been referred to have allowed the Lore-Lienten int to exercise the prerogative of mercy. And, in- deed, when some mixed cases h: ye been referred to the Judges, those learned personages have replied to some parts of such ease, and have stated that other portions of it rested under the peculiar jurisdiction of the Lord.Lieutenant."

A case had been referred to by Mr. Jackson which had provoked from Lord Morpeth an exclamation of " last year "— " I owe an apology, perhaps, to the learned gentleman or the exclamation I made on that or:cation, when I said the case had occurred last year. 1 did not, however, du justice to my exclamation, because I should have said the year be- fore last; though I do not mean to say that this would be a justification if it had occurred three years ago. But, Sir, what led to my exclamation was the fact, that this charge hail beeu already served up to lAY in July 1835, on the mo- tion of the honourable 31ember for Loodourlerry ; and I thought the :natter had been fully disposed of. I must say, that when I found the learned Sergeant had bottled up this atm), of the Chief Baron, I was surprised. The case occurred under the administration of Lord Iladdington. The Protestants, who were supposed to be the parties aggrieved, hail the lighter punish- ment allotted to them, whilst the Roman Catholics had the heavier. But it was after the expiration of the ',hid of confinement extended to the Protes- tants, that the Jury unanimously came forward to petition that a similar exer- cise of metcy might be manifested to the Roman Catholics, they having been already a longer time imprisoned than the Protestants. His Excellency took an opportunity of looking at the original notes of the case, and of con- sidering the Judge's opinion ; and, thinking that a sufficient period of confine- ment had been allotted to both parties, he assented to the enlargement of the Roman Catholics. Upon that occasion, in the year 1835, I remember the name of the Countess of :11tilgrave was brought forward for having obeyed the jot- pulse of het gentle and charitable nature, and expressed a wish in fitvuur of a prisoner from whose wife she had received a letter ; and I really had hoped that her name would not have been brought forward even to appease the dignity of my Lord Chief Baron. ( Cheers.) But we have not yet dune with the mis- conduct of the Goveintnetit in the la•t year. The honourable and gallant .Mern- her for Duncgal says. that the liberation of Mr. Reynolds was a most unjustifi- able step. He stated furtt;sr, that One only had we committed the enormity of acting upon that occasion without the cameurretice of the learned Judge by whom Mr. Reynolds was tried, but that we acted in direct opposition to his opinion after it had been asked and obtained. The honourable and gallant fileinher is mistaken. We did not ask the learned Chief Justice of the Common Pleas for his opinion as to the propriety of mitigating the sentence passed upon Reynolds; but, hom what transpired throte.;11 the 01 chum y channels of in• formation, the Lour- Lieutenant felt himself called 011.111 to ask for the notes of the trial, for the evIlettee taken upon the ttial, and for the charge delivered by the lemma' Chief Justice to the Jury. These documents, when obtained, -he immediately bubmittol to the legal advisers of the Crown, to the Attorney- General, the Solicitur•General, and the Lord Chancellor ; and it was in conse- quence of their unanimous opinion, as explessed after an inspection of these documents, that the Lottl•L',...... it ordered the immediate liberation of Mr.

Reynolds. This happened in isovernber, or, at the latest, December 1835; yet upuu this grossly uoitiseiable step, until last night not one word has been said in either house of Parliament, (idler in the way of reproach to the Go. vernment, or of virolicatien of the offended d'gnity of the Lord Chief Justice of the Common Pleas." ( Cheers. ) Colonel CONOLLY—." I mentioned the transaction soon after it had taken pleee."

Lord 3I0niesen—" I um reminded of whet I had certainly for- gotten— "I ternember that the subject was mentioned in this House, but only men. tiered, I believe, because we on this side of the House hail dared the honourable gentlemen opposite to bring the case forward if they had any complaint to make upon it. Thus it certainly happened that the subject was mentioned ; but no motion or subsequent proceeding It as founded upon it."

The Judges' lists of Sheriffs were departed from in nine instances by the Lord-Lieutenant ; who was in his place in Parliament for se.. vend nights together in Alay last, to answer any questions relative to his conduct on this head—to justify his rule of not appointing any person to the office of Sheriff who was connecter' with Orange Lodges. Y et only a single charge wits brought again, t hie.. Mr. Lefroy, with astonishing gruvity, had declared that if other cases besides that of Mr. Leigh had been known, in May last, they would have been animad- verted upon. Why, in the preceding February, it was as notorious at the sun at noon. day that the gentlemen named by the Judges had been set aside- " The newspapers attached to time party to which the right honourable and learned gentleman belongs were ringing with it • Frain night to tniivti, nun) Ilit.:111 to dewy eve,' Yet the only chaige brought forward in Parliament against the Earl of Mul- grave was that he had improperly departed from the fudges' list in the case of Mr. Leigh. Upon further inquiry, it appeared to the noble earl that lie had been misinformed with respect to that gentleman; and when his name appeared again in the list for the succeeding year, he lost no time in appointing hint. The course which led to the setting aside of the other names upon the list was resolved upon in the month of December 1833; it was promulgated in Fehru.. ary 1833; we wet e in our places in Parliament during the whole of the session ; Lord Alulgrave oils present in his place in the other Home in the month of ?day; and yet, NI the holding of tho meeting at the Mansionbouse in Dublin, in the month of January 1837, no accusation has been brought forward against ue impugning the p! opriety of that course."

A complaint had been made that a Mr. Corcoran was appointed Sub- Sheriff oh Wexford. 'I !ris Mr. Corcoran was a very respectable person ; and Lord .torpetli preeurned that gentlemen opposite would vet question his respectability, when they were told that he was the

electioneering agent of the late Mr. Kavanagh. Perhaps, however, they would have preferred Mr. Reid, the previous Sub. Sheriff ; who having failed in selling a quantity of corn seized for tithes, set fire to the corn, in the face of a starving and itritated multitude ! The Go- vernment thought it their duty to prevent Mr. Reid from being again a Sub- Sheriff in Wexford, and had Intimated their wish to Mr. Leigh, who promptly acceded to it ; and Mr. Corcoran succeeded Mr. Reid. Then came the case of Mr. Cassidy. There was a great complaint in Queen's County of the want of Liberal Magistrates ' • and Lord Be Vesci was applied to to nominate Mr. Cassidy ; which he refused to do, on the ground of certain proceedings at the Quarter-sessions, with which Mr. Cessidy was connected-

" The case arose, I believe, out of a demand for Couuty-eess, which Mr. Cassidy contenied was improperly levied upon him. It turned out, that when the demand was about to be enforced, some persons in Mr. Cassidy's employ. ruent offered a forcible resistance ; and a disturbance ensued. I am told that Mr. Cassidy unequivocally expressed his disapproval of the conduct of his set.. vents, although of course he was compelled to bear the weight of the damages incurred in consequence of it. Mr. Cassidy seas recommended to the Govern- ment by:several gentlemen in the county of high station and great respectabi- lity. The honourable gentleman opposite shakes his head, as if that statemeat were not true?"

Mr. VESEY—." Will the noble lord name one of those gentlemen?" Lord Moicreen—" I am in the possession of the names of several, and could mention them, if I pleased; but I really do not know whether I should be jut. tified in bringing them forward in this way. I state the fact upon my own re. sponsihility. Persons whom I think to be respectable recommended Mr. Cat. 'tidy to the Government. ( Cheers.) His father had been reported to be one of the best Magistrates in the county of Kildare, and in the King's and Queen's Counties. His younger brother is a Magistrate and Sheriff for Kildare ; and he himself holds the commission-of the peace for King's County, to which he was appointed by Lord Oxmantown—no great advocate of Agitation or Re- peal."

But the loudest thunders of the Opposition were hurled against the appointment of Mr. Pigott--

" Now there is no nomination upon which, both on public and private grounds, I take more cordial pleasure. I do not know a person of whom I have a higher opinion, or for whom I anticipate a more successful career, whether in the estimation of his fellow citizens, or in the first walks of his profession. He is a member of the Association. That he has often appeared there, or taken any prominent part in their discussions or delivered any of his sentimeets there, I am not aware. The last time in which I saw his name mentioned as con- nected with the proceedings of the Association, was when that body had been (try near passing a vote of censure upon him. Undoubtedly, I du not disguise that there are many members of the Association who enteitain or profess opi. nions widely at variance with those of the Government under whom I have the honour to serve. But I apprehend, that in availing ourselves of any benefit which may be received from the advice of Mr. Pigott, we in no way remove any responsibility which his appointment may impose either upon the Lord- Lieutenant of Ireland, the chief Law Officers, or myself. For my own part, I can only say that I shall most willingly share in any responsibility which may be supposed to result from his appointment."

With regard to the Association in Dublin, Lord Morpeth remarked, that nobody had ventured to state positively drat it was illegal. The resolutions passed at the Dublin Tory meeting, and commented on by Lord John Russell, he branded as false and unfounded. In one of those resolutions, the appointment of Assistant Barristers was declared to have been made subsidiary to the registration of fictitious votes : to show that this was untrue, Lord Morpeth referred to the decisions of Messrs. Hudson, Gibson, and Fogerty, proving that their leatiing was certainly not in favour of the Liberals. As to Mr. Gibson, he had been prevented from taking the chair at the Quarter- sessions in Queen's County ; but the Magistrates who acted with such discourtesy made an ample atonement, for they were constrained to call upon Mr. Gibson to perform the duty of charging the Grand Jury. Then, with respect to the exercise of patronage-

. " Whenever peculiar gualifieatiens have been required, and the selection has heels necessaiilyconfitied to a few persons,—as, for instance, to the Super- intendents of Hospitals, or to the higher and more responsible functionaries of education,—I can venture to say no Government could have gone further than what Emil Mulgrave's Government has done in slaking the appointments exclusively in reference to the highest degree of fitness of the person who was candidate for the office. And if in doing this we have not always had the

pleasure of appointing persons friendly to us, and have thereby incurred much friendly criticism, we have generally followed that rule—our path being illuminated by the proceedings of our predecessors. (Laughter and cheers.) The head and front of our uttiording in this—that we have preferred our friends and suppot tete to our avowed adversaries, our open vilifiers, and our insidious

nutlet-miners. (Immense cheering.) Such has been hitherto the policy of the Government of Earl Mulgrave; and in spite of all that shall be alleged or charged against Us, such it will continue."

It was not perhaps his province to enter upon the general princi- ples on which the Government should be conducted ; but in the Irish Government there was a perfect union of opinion and feeling as to the course to be pursued Withrespect to my own individual share in the conduct of that Government, I have reason to believe, that my own constituency—certainly not the least numerous, not the least industrious, not the least religious, not the least Pro- testant in the empire—have not withheld their confidence from me. (Loud cheers.) The impression upon me grows stronger day by day, that if the Irish Government is conducted on any other system—on a system of repression, on a system of alienation, on a system of keeping back the People of Ireland, or of keeping back and keeping down the Catholic laity of Ireland, or of keeping aloof from the Catholic clergy of Ireland—I do not mean aloof with respect to

the honours and profits of the state, but from all confidence, assistance, coope- ration, and good-will—a pretty task our successors will have in putting down

the Catholic Association ; but not content with that, the honourable and learned Sergeant has thrown in the putting down the Roman Catholic hierarchy. (Immense cheering.) But to cam ry on that Government on any other system than one of kindness, of conciliation, and of equal and impartial justice, is a plan which will be attended with enortnous risks in Ireland and in England. Whatever partial difference may exist—whatever partial prepossessions may ex- ist—if you ever come to make the critical demand, I doubt you will find very

little alacrity On the part of the People in bestowing the necessary quantity of blood or treasure to keep up or perpetuate such a system. ( Cheers. ) 1 have

touched upon what relates to our own department, as a member of the Irish Government. It is the department of Parliament, and of this House prima- rily, to determine whether the policy of the Executive shall be ratified, fol-

lowed up, and extended by the proceedings of the Legislative department— whether what we can generally manifest but in spirit and in intention, you -will convert into a living and lasting enactment-whether you will change after having tried to create some division amongst the friends behind me, he the favour that now may be bestowed upon any individual, into a deer now tries to create divisions amongst these who supported the illustrioes man rooted, because well-grounded, attachment to the laws that are equal and the who was at the head of the AdministratIon to which that right honoerable

Constitution that is common. And, with such views, and in such a course, gentleman belonged. I have seen his motives ; and I have traced over and over you cannot take a better or a more effectual step than by giving your votes to the again the right honourable gentleman--"

'measure of my noble friend this evening." ( Vehement and continued cheering Sir JAMES GRAHAM rose to order ; and denied the right of Sir John

followed the conclusion of Lord Morpeth'espeech.) Hobliouse to impute motives to him.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that be had waited with some impatience Sir Jons ROM-SOUSE could not trace motives-he should have said for the reply of a member of the Administration to the charges intention. He did not mean any discourtesy, but he thought he eould brought against the Executive ; and he was certainly surprised, that constantly trace in the speeches of Sir James Graham an attempt on the previous night, the speech of Mr. Sergeant Jackson was riot to disconnect Earl Grey with the present Administration. Sir answered by the Irish Secretary, but-perhaps naturally enough-by John went on to argue, that the Melbourne Ministry was the worthy the recent and favoured guest of the Lord-Lieutenant, the honourable and consistent successor of the Grey Ministry. With respect to the Member for Kilkenny. The Member for Bath bad sneered at his question before the House, he could say that Ministers intended to at- (Sir James's) consistency- tempt to pass the Corporation Bill for Ireland-what e% as the policy of " Now, Sir, I have done nothing secretly or covertly. Every thing which Sir Robert Peel ? Would he undertake to govern Inland on a diffe- I have done has been done in the face of day. I have concealed nothing ; I am rent principle ? If so, let him declare it. Jr was fitting that the ashamed of nothing. I have sacrificed no principle; I have compromised no country ehould know the policy of their successors-whei her they would opinion. I rejoice in that union which prevails on the bench where 1 have the take otfice in defiance of a majority of 86 on this Irieh Corporation honour of sitting. (Loud Opposition cheers, echoed back by sarcastic cheers from the Ministerial benches.) No effort on my part has been wanting to effect question. Mr. Roebuck had complained that .Ministers wel e not sae. it ; none shall be wanting to cement and perpetuate it. And I declare, that ficiently explicit--no such charge should be brought against him : he after contemplating the dangers which surround this country, and in the face of would say distinctly, that the real question at issue wire, Whether the the combination, dangerous, as I think, and unnatural, which I see on the majority uf the Commons, or the majority of the Lords, should rule? benches opposite, the vindication of my conduct is easy." He told a plain tale-such was the question ; and he appealed for its He addressed the House with some difficulty-he saw so much age- decision to a Parliament chosen under the auspices of Sir Robert Peel. tation on the benches before him ; and Mr. Roebuck-the successor of himself. Sir John Hobhouse then defended the gslieral policy and Beau Nash-that renowned King of Bladud- as Master of the Cere- conduct of Ministers ; maintaining that an impartial posterity would monies, had read them a lecture as to the proper mode of conducting do justice to them. their debates ; but notwithstanding the sarcasm of that arbiter elcgan- Sir ROBERT PEEL rose, amidst cries of " Adjoin ii ! " He rather tiarum, he should express himself with the frankness becoming an thought it would be convenient to the House to have the debate closed English Commoner. Sir James then referred to the quotations from that night, as there was to be no division. He would therefore corn. Mr. Fox's speeches by Lord John Russell ; and argued that if lord press the few observations he had to make into a small space- John adopted Mr. Fox's principle of concession, he must give as long " I say the few observations, because I am almost ash iced to rise after as the Irish asked-there would be no resistance to demands, however the speech of my right honourable ftiend who site en my left hand, unjust. But Sir James contended that he was a true disciple of Mr. and after that attempt at a- reply-( Oppositio.i cheers)-which you have Fox ; if that really great statesman bad lived to see the Test and Cos- heard II om a 3litiister of the Crown. I know and I respect the ability of poration acts abolished and Catholic Emancipation and Reform carried, that right honourahle gentleman ; and what inference do I dr iw (torn his failure? he would have taken his stand in behalf the Protestant religion against Not that his poweis have deserted hint, but that he felt the utter impossibility further encroachments. There was a near relative of Mr. Fox in the of contending with the speech which he followed, but w hich he did not House of Lords-for whose superior nature and high intellectual at- answer."

He was surprised at the turn which had been given to this discussion.' tainments he had the most perfect esteem : he alluded to Lord . Qum perpetito sunt agitata, manent.' Speech-

manner. He referred to several circumstances attending the retirement But there were facts in abundance- Holland- He had certainly expected that Lord John Russell would have taken at comprehensive view of the condition of Ireland, nod have given an " That noble lord has told us, in a pentameter verse of old monastic Latin, outline of the three great measures announced in his Majesty's what was the policy of the present Administration: ., What course, however, did the leader of the 'louse of Commons take? Now I will translate Qua perpetuo sunt agitata thus-' we perpetually yielffto He fixed on a resolution which had been passed by a body iii Dublin that were agitation ;' but manent, how shall I translate that ? I should say, • they re- met to petition. He concealed from us every thing wh,eli be intended with main in Downing Street, and contrive to keep their places.' ( Cheers and respect to the Church ; he couccaled from us every tbitig which be intended! laughter.) The noble lord opposite talks of all the symptoms of the gout with. with respect to Poor-laws ; but he provoked a discussien WI the lath resolu- out the pain ; I would ask the noble lord, if he ever heard of an Administra- tion, which had been come to be a number of geotlenael who thought they tion with all the symbols of Government without the power?" (Loud Oppo. might with safety exercise the litimble privilege of poit'on. Ile knew the . sition cheers.) petition was to be presented to the Howse ; that appe o,,..i ea the face of the Sir James then argued against the advantage of further concessions, resolution-he would hardly wait till it was signed. Ile I: a, w that the proper from the inutility of those which had been made, to produce peace in time for making any charges with respect to those t l'Sili ions was when the Ireland. He dwelt at length on the resolutions of the National As- petition should he preseuted ; but lie took the oapor: e airy of the Municipal sociation ; and on the declaration of Mr. O'Connell in favour of the Bill to accuse those who bad attended the meetilig, hut v.ke ev,. re not yet prepare& total extinction of tithes, though both were now willing to take an in- with a petition, with making charges against the Moist' ■ ‘el,ich they were not stalment. He quoted passages from the letters and speeches of Mr. prepared to support in their places in Parliament. Ti.e 1.:oble had got an an- swer which he little expected. ' You deal, in general, i a v .gue declamation: O'Connell, to prove that that gentleman used Ministers as his instru- he said ; ' no facts have you to mention, not one ; I elill, It.;e you to come for- meats for the overthrow of the Protestant Church. He defied Minis- ward with the details, and I will brand you with ilisgr ,,a. uide-s you produce ters to shirk the responsibility of their connexion with the Associa- your facts.' Well, four hours had not elapsed befine tLe discussion became tion, since they had taken for their most confidential Law Adviser, very inconvenient ; and then we were told that it woul,l !.e infinitely better to Mr. Pigott, an active agent in setting that body on foot. As for the confute ourselves to the great subject which was the proper ehject of our debate Catholic Members, he would read to them the oath which they had -that the detail of stAall facts was more incduvenient than a statement el taken on entering that House, not to weaken the Protestant Establish- general objects ; and we were implored to return to that wi.ich was the legiti- meat ; and Sir James accordingly read the oath, in his most impressive mate subject for our c-isideration, the Municipal Bill."

of Earl Grey, in order to show that several members of that nobleman's " The resolution complained of was this-that patrooag, had been so applied, Administration now acted in contradiction to his declared opinions, and the prerogative of mercy so exercised, as to shake cea:idence in the ;Willi.. while he (Sir James) abided by them, and had done wisely in quitting nistratiou of justice. Well, the facts were ln ought tin t% aril by which that ge- office. He quoted several accounts of outrages in Ireland to disprove neral allegation was supported, and a tender uas made I.■ those who did bro.

forward to prove the

the assertion of the tranquillity of that country; and 'concluded his them m before any tribunal which the House of Commons. s speech by reading, for the especial edification of Lord John Russell, should choose to appoint. It was said, ' We assett :hat persons have been a passage from the speech of the famous Lord Russell of the seven- placed in a situation, who, however respectable in prie..te .1M-who, howevea eminent in certain attainments of a lawyer, have bt;ii Out that professional teenth century, expressing dread of the progress of Popery, and his standing which entitled them to be placed over the heads of other barristers el grief that so many Protestants should lend a helping hand towards it. superior qualifications; and the consequence of that undue advaucement has Sir JOHN HOBHOUSE defended Ministers from the attack of Sir been, that in a situation of the utmost imponance-moie important than the James Graham-his right honourable friend, if he might still so term ostensibly responsible situation of Attorney or Solicitui- General, because the him. Sir James had founded an attack upon Lord Holland on an in- influence is greater, the attendance is more constant aod the duties more . genious quotation by that noble lord from an old author-Janus NI- occult,- in that situation of confidential advice, has been placed an individual tellus-he could help Sir James to the name, though he supposed Sir who has taken an active part in the Association DOW Inti■ti.K in Ireland.' That was one fact; and it was offered to establish it before a Select Committee, fairly James did not require that assistance from him. The words were- and impartially constituted. ' A Select Committee !' sae they, • Oh no yo." Qum perpetuo stint agitate, manent ;" and the true interpretation of cannot have a Select Committee ; these things are not It for inquiry before a these words, according to Sir James Graham, was that by perpetual Select Committee. Move an impeachment : an impeachment is the only agitation they were to remain in office-in Downing Street. Ile threw course.' What ! an impeachment to inquire whether, ni ilischarging by whole- lack the imputation. The Ministry of which he was a member were sale prisoners from gaol, Lord Mulgrave has exercised wisely the prerogative oll not actuated by such motives, and the country would not pass such a mercy ?-to inquire whether Mr. Pigott was, uudet all the circumstances a . base verdict upon them- proper individual to be appointed confidential adviser at tile Castle? Now, let "My right honourable friend seems to think that it is for some base objects me ask, is there no possibility of questioning any act of a Minister of the we are now sitting here-that it is for the mere emoluments, the mere power Crown or of a member of the Government, but by going through the cumbersome • which office confers that we condescend to sit here and to be baited by him process of an impeachment ? Must an individual so questioned be put on the -every night. (Loud cheers from the Ministerial :Members.) I trust that footing of a Stratford or a Laud, or will he not condescend to answer the objec- the right honourable gentleman has had too much experience of the personal tions that may be made to his conduct? It must surr;y be by a Select Coin- honour, if not of the political consistency of his former friends, to believe that mittee, aod not by impeachment, that they inquired a liether Lord Oxmantowe, they are capable of acting in a manner so completely incompatible with the taut appointed Cassidy to the Magistracy prior to in subsequently to the occur.. honour of English gentlemen. (" Hear I". from the Opposition, and loud rences which induced Lord de Yesci not to recommend him to the commission cheers.) I do not know what pleasure the right honourable gentleman can find of the peacefor the Queen's County. Do you mean In resist the inquiry inte in thus perpetually putting forward such charges. But I wish to call this to these facts? Do you mean, after resting this debate on the lath or 24th resoe ihis recollection, that when a man changes his opinions (I do not mean to say lution that was come to at the meeting in Dublin-do you mean, after saying, the right honourable gentleman has done so)-but when a man changes to ano- ' Those allegations and vituperations are utilair and let us have facts-fact* ither side of the House (and no one has a right to object to that),-but this I with which we can deal, and to %Offal we can reply,'-do you mean after this to say, that a man may act magnanimously without carrying into his new position turn round and tell us that' Nothing but impeachment a ill do ; we are not tube a perpetual bitterness against his ancient allies. (Cheers from the Ministerial expected to yield to anything else ; nothing shot t ut impeachment will satisfy Members.) The right honourable gentleman has omitted no occasion on us?' Why did not the noble lord take the more statesmanlike course of enter. which he could bring forward, not political, but persona/ charges against us. log on the state of Ireland?" Sir roaraT FELL—" Yea, but the state of Ireland on which you tittered was one ohich excluded the Church question—excluded the question of Poor-laws.' "The noble lord's pet formance was an improvement on the provincial per- formance of which we have heard, for it was the play of Honda with both the pads of Hamlet and Ophelia omitted. You tell us, because we refuse to ap- ply the same principle to Ireland, in respect of municipal igtitutions, that we have applied to England, that ive are inflicting wrong, and offiring insult to the People of Ireland. Now, let me ask you, do you intend to apply that rule to the other measures? Do you, having made certain laws with respect to the Church of England—do you, having passed an act of Parliament which granted the incorporation of the Church of Ireland with the Church of Eng- land—do you mean to apply the identical principle of legislation to the Church of Ireland which you have applied to the Church of England ? If you do not, on what ground do you refuse it ? Is it not that there is a peculiarity of cir- cumstances— is it not that there is a peculiarity in the state of society in Ire. land, which justifies the application of a different principle ? If that be true with respect to the Church—if it he not an insult to apply to Ireland different principles on account of different circumstances, let me tell you, you are not to take it for granted that a refusal of identity with regard to another measure is an insult to the People. Do you mean to apply the same principles to Ireland with respect to the Pout-laws ? This is an important matter, affecting interests as extensive, mans as great, parties as entitled to Kt mpathy, ns any political parties that can exist. It is the law of England and the principle of the Eng- lish Poor-laws, that every person who is lame or blind, or old or impotent, has a right to demand pecuniary relief. That is the principle of the law of Eng- laud, and do you mean to adopt that principle in Its full extent in Ireland? I know many who clamoured for identity of legislation, and assailed us with the charge of insult, that shrunk from it when the Poor-laws came into consitlera• tion. Poverty and impotence are not entitled to the same identity that politi- cal parties may .be. In that case, the principle is denominated• by no inure soothing a description than that it is a great humbug: And when it is said, do

, you mean to refuse id jet to the poor on the same principle on whirli they have it in England, the reply is, that it is taking it tbr granted that it will be relief, and the whole question is open as to whethel there is not that dissimilarity in Itched which entitles us to apply a totally different system to that country.

Of the charges which had been brought against the Mali Govern- ment, by far the most important was that of Itir. Pigott's appoint- ment— " From all I have heard of that gentlentau's personal character, I aim bound to speak with respect of hint. Do I object to his appointment because he is a Roman Catholic ? Not in the least. I object to it as showing the onionrs of the Government. I object to it as showing a direct and intimate connexion between the Government and that Association which exists in Dublin, and as a direct encouragement of it. The right honourable baronet has asked me, I think rather improperly, what Course i mean to pursue when I rective an appointment, which, till the right homottable baronet spoke I was tea in the sisghtest expectation of. (-Vocir foughlor. ) As 1 doubt die right honeura- able gentleman's authority or competence to confer the appointment, I must say I do not see his right to catechize me as to the principles I mean to fiillow on the contingency which, till this night, I thought was a remote. one. And now, what between his funeral speech, the notes of the dying swan, and his de- claration that it is in v11111 for me to hope to be able to conduct the Govern- ment, Ilie might honourable gentlemau liu left me in complete doubt as to the potAtion in which I really stand. His speech is one half congratulatm y on my fiat:re a wiiiitnient, and the other half a most lamentable prophecy as to any utter i:.:,bility to lertake it." ( Cheers nail laughter.)

Sir Robert dwelt upon the different course of the Orangemen, who had dissolved their Society, from that of the Cutholies, who had reorganized theirs ; and he called upon Ministers to try upon the National Association, whose condemnation the Prime Minister had pronounced, the same experiment which had succeeded in breaking up the Orange Lodges. But the Association did nothing in secret-

" What tido enee does that make in reality ? (Loud cheers .fi ma the Minister tut side ql the house.) Benue, able geutlemen oppteate cheer eel v

loudly, but the) should tecullect that seetcey was not illegal under the old laws ; and if it was not illegal, what had it to do with that Society ? It is nut the secret existence of an eased:aim that constitutes its danger. The Jacobin Club of Paris was not a secret society, but it was a club which bail extensive ramifications throughout the country. The National Association collects money. It interferes with the administration of justice. ("Xil") You say that club's existence is the consequence of unwise legislation. But who

encourages it ? (Lute/ cla f'n;.) Who sanctions it? Why do you conclude your speeches by talking tihout 'equal and impartial justice ?' Wile do you place in a confidential office, intrusted with the daily administration til justice, in one of the highest offices connected with the Government, the mail who had agreed to the following resolution—' That it he requested that the several parishes thioughout Ireland do hold meetings on one day? 'What is the object of this simultaneous meeting, except as a demonstration of physical force? ' Prepare and fin ward petitions to Parliament for Collimation Reform—for the abolition of Tithes and for vote by Ballot? ' You call upon men to struggle for the maintenance of their legal rights, who are bowel down by poverty, and also by famine. What dues the noble hunt do ? Ireland, he says, is far from being in a state of disturbance ; and he Alia theta the consolation of a verse from a modern snug. (Loud cheers and laughter.) Why, I will lance in competition with the noble lord's poetry the more eloquent prose of the insurance office, which tells him that they dare not insure a clergyman's life. (Loud cheers.) Whether a Protestant or a Boman Catholic, every man ought to have confidence that he will be piotectod by the Government. But that confidence is disturbed when tiny see Government in league w ith an Association which has appointed paifiemors, and which imists on the abolition of the , blood-stained impost ' of tithes."

Sir Robeit contended, that Lord Mulgrave hind most injudiciously exercised the prerogative of mercy. Burin the visit of George the Fourth to Scotland, some persons confined for offences against the Exciselaws bad petitioned to be liberated, and their petition was Ft,- fared to the Excise-officers ; who were directed to point out those whose puttishment had nearly expiated their offences. There was also Another precedent- " It is in a farce which is well known by the name of Toni Thumb. If I re• tonect rightly—awl I hope the right hunourable gentleman, Sir John Dub- house, will shield me if I am wrong in my quotation—I am only quoting from memory, but if I reeullect rightly, the King and Lord (frizzle are on the stage. the King saya---' Rebellion now is done—I'll go—to breakfast;' and in order to illustrate the precedent, be goes on to say, 'Open the prison • doors—turn the captives out, and let may Cr, asuter advance a guinea to pay their several deists.' • ( if 'continued laughter. ) TI esc are the unly two instatees, one drawn from real L. life and the other from fiction, that I recollect, in which was applied the prin- ciple of commemorating the nnival of a chief governor in a town by the governor of the gaol being tailed upon to sacrifice his hecatomb of victims in order to grace the majesty of a chief goverten." (Great laughter.) He argued that it was no more an insult to Irishmen to refuse diem certain municipal institutions, than it would be to reject a measure for erecting Manchester and Birmingham into corporate towns; and when he was asked what he should do with the Irish Corporations when he came into power, he would ask Sir John Hohhouse, who was in power, what lie would do with the Irish Church? Frequent reference .isad been made to the Catholic Relief Bill— " I never took the least credit for the passing of that bill. It was foreea upon me. ( Tremendous cheering from the Ministerial side of the House.) The credit of that bill, whatever it may be, belongs to others. But this I will state, that the charge that I undertook to support that bill from the desire to remain in office, is the most groundless that ever yet was made. I always dis, dained to notice the accusation. The fact is, although it may not be keen, that I was out of office the evening before I brought forward that bill. That bill passed, but before it passed there was this distinct allegation, that the concessions asked fur, if granted, would restore complete civil equality. I asked questions in every possible form in which I could possibly put them. I asked, Shall you consider the maintenance of the Established Church inconsistent with civil equality?' I put this question to Dr. Doyle, and to every one who appeared on the part of the Itoman Catholics. The an- swer uniformly was—, The complete removal of our civil disabilities will prevent any future intertneddling with the Church Establishment, that all agitation should ceasa, and that there should be a return bath on the part of the laity and the clergy to the peaceful occupation of their former lives.' It is stated now that agitation will not cease unless you give institutions to Ireland precisely on the same footing as those of England ; and Ibis declaration is now made after the concessions we freely made, diseneuns. herd of any demand for security, the only one condition living that the Protestant religion should be maintained, and that the Clench Establishment should not be subverted. I afterwards thought, and fondly lulled, that the restoration of equal privileges would satisfy these demands; but we are now told distinctly, that it is the opinion of the Association that the first duty of the Representatives of the Irish People is to realize, if poasible, entire religions freedom for the Irish People in the next session. We are told distinctly, that while the Church Establishment almall remain ureaffiverted, agitation shall continue, and all these normal schttuls shall be applied for that purpose. le it, then, right to say that we imply insult to the feeling of the Irish People, when all we wish is to preserve that Establishment? " ( Loud rhea s.)

The great advocate of the Cutholic claims, Ltwd Plutiket, had avowed his resolution to support the Protestant Establishment, over and over again, in the strongest language ; and Lord John Russell had tivowed his determination to do the same. But the noble lord ap- proved of Mr. Fox's principle of concession-

" Now, let me ask, if this system of concession is to go on, how the noble lord is to maintain time Church. The noble bird, concurring with Mr. Fox, said he knew au other plan for governing a people but by allowing them to have their own way. But the noble lord must know, ftir he has hati fair notice, that while the l'imestant Clench remains, the National Asqieiation shall remain. Tliejsuble lord, by adopting the principle, concedes eNTIy thing , for if he acts on tile doctrine that the People must have every thing they demand, he must not only concede till Municipal Reform is grant 1, but also till the Pmtestant Church is destroyed. I heard that declamation limn the noble lord with the utmost regret. But there was another point to which he wished to refer ; and as the best in:tem:41 fin the patience with which he bad been listened to, he would confine himself to that, and ask how the granting of Municipal Reform would intel fern with the ailininistratiou of justice? These corporations were to have the appointment of the Sheriffs, and eon... Lucidly the chief influence in the admittistration ofjustice ; nod let me ask what would be the consequenta of such a concession in the present heated and feverish state of Ireland? What would be its effect 4111 the minority, but to deprive them of that free and inde- peudeut action which was necessary for the administration of justice? And let me appeal again to that sanie Fox who warned his audience against mistaking paper regulations for practical institutions.—against attempting to establish identity of institutions in countlies oh' different hailits and different manner', and distracted by leligious jealousy, thereby 'Westin ing with the administration of justice and the protection of equal laws, and not giving that justice which it was the 'hay of every Legislattwe to give, to the minority as well as the ma- jority." ( Loud cheers.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in his reply, observed, that lie did not think he should have acted discreetly ill mixing up the questions of the Church and Poor-laws with that of Corporation Reform,—especially the Poor-laws, which every getitleman was disposed to enter into with- out reference to his party feeling's. One of the principtil charges against Alinisters was founded on the appointment of Mr. Pigott; but he did not think it right to pass over the fittest person for an office, merely becuttae he was a member of the National Association. He presumed that now Mr. Pigott would not mix at till in the proceedings of the Association. It certainly was his wiah to support the Church in Ireland ; but it was Sir Robert Peel and his friends who bad put that Church in peril— Ilia firm belief was, that if the bill of the year before last had been accepted, they would have 4thtailiell on the cheapest possible terms 3 Ineasure of defence far tl.e Church of Irelaud, better than they had any reason now to expect. Baying Qom in the passing of that measure obtained a very large inajority of this House, pledged to maintain the Church of lrelnol upon the footing esta- blished by it, that in itself would have been a very strong guarantee for the secui ity of the Church. At present, all he could say was, that he viewed with great pain the present deplorable condition of the Chum!' of Ireland, and of thole who depended upon the revenues of that Church for their support. But at the same time, he still thought, that if at the commencement of the session he had stated a plan in respect to the Church of balm' and to tithes, it would not have been likely to produce any better agreement on the eubject than had Ins therm been obtaitied. He begged to ilcelare, however, mitts ithstandilig, that It should be his earnest study to h.vise some 1111:ilblire by whieli Parliatutnt might be abler to came to some arrangement on the subject in the course of the pre- sent session : them were malty events passing in Ireland, and many points con- nectel with the subject, whiell tendered him willing to make considirable sacrifices in arriving iit this desirable object. (" Hear, hear!") But, at the same time, he could not say that they hial any right to expect to ice great readiness to accept such terms on the subjeet as iu the.year before last were sought for with anxiety by parties in that House.

Ile did not wish ngiiin to bring forwurd a Tithe-bill which would not pass both Houses mid satisfy the People of Irelaild also—

and this was a task so diffis:ent from till that had taken place in former years, that he did not feel inclined to bring it forward eally in the session ; he would rather postpone the subject to a later peliod. Whenever it might be brought forward, hems-ever, the House might be sure that no personal feelings of his own—no false pride—should stand in die way either of this or of any other question.

The motion was than agreed to. Lord JOHN 111:V4ELL bought up dukbill;•,which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second thee next Friday.

• Tbe House adjourned at half-past two.

JorsT STOCK BANKS AND THE BANK OF ENGLAND.

Mr. SPRING RICE, on Monday, moved the renewal of the Commit- tee of last session on Joint Stock Banking. This, he said, was done in conformity with the suggestion of that Committee; which had made a valuable report, but at the same time stated that the subject had not been thoroughly investigated, and, after two days' deliberation, bad decided that it was not prudent to legislate upon it until additional information had been obtained. He apprehended that occurrences during the recess bad not tended to diminish the necessity for a renewal of the Committee. It was his intention to move, that the members of the late Committee be reappointed, with the addition of four Mem- bers for Ireland, as he proposed to extend the inquiry to that country. It would perhaps be considered desirable by some gentlemen, not to limit the inquiry of the Committee to Joint Stock Banks, but to em- brace the Bank of England in its scope. Unquestionably, so for as the Bank of England was mixed up in the transactions of the Joint Stock Banks, the conduct of that institution would be investigated ; but he contended, that it would be most inconvenient, and likely to frustrate the design of the Committee, if the whole subject of the currency and the Bank Charter were opened up. Mr. Rice reminded the House, that last session he had cautioned the country against con- fidence in the continuance of the prosperity it then enjoyed. Indeed, he had gone so far as to excite reproof from Mr. Hume. He had not, however, spoken despairingly of the prospects of the country' and was as little disposed to do so now as then; but he recommended cau- tion to the Committee in dealing with the subject of banking. Mr. Rice concluded by moving that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the operation of the Act 7th George IV. for establishing Joint Stork Banks in Great Britain and Ireland.

Mr. Hume declared his intention of moving an amendment on this motion, in order to give the Committee authority to inquire into the conduct of the Bank of England. He was persuaded that the diffi- culties in which the country was involved arose from the mismanage- ment of the Bank, from the deviation of that establishment from the safe rule which, Mr. Horsley Palmer informed the Charter Committee, had at length been discovered for regulating its issues. In 18:15, Mr. Hume had told Mr. Canning and Mr. Huskisson, that the Country Banks were not to Maine for the panic which ensued ; and now he could prove that the embarrassment which so generally prevailed, arose from the capricious and dangerous conduct of the Bank of Ergland. Mr. Hume dwelt at some length on the mode of management adopted by the Bank of France, which at all times discounted at four per cent., and was a commercial bank. The Bank of France did not attempt to control the currency, but was a safe establishment to which all parties with good security could apply at any time for discounts. It was mainly owing to this system, that, in spite of all the evils which France had endured ft mu wars, invasions, revolutions, and tldlures of her Y,.ine and emu crops, no such panics and derangements of the currency had outlived there, as have been the source of so much suffering in England : and now, for the first time in the history of the two coin tries, Government seettritke in England, in spite alter supe- riority it v. v:1 industiy, and corn uterI e, were lower than the Freech securities. This might be traced to the misconduct of the Bank of England. Mr. Hume then referred to the operations connected with the West Indian Loan ; for it was the great supply of money the Bank thereby obtained, which led it to inclease the circulating medium to a dangerous extent. Within a week after the loan of fifteen millions Wit:, completed, the Bank gave notice that it would make advances on Omnium and till sorts of securities at 31, per cent. ; so that holders of the Loan, who took their °minim) at :11 discount, went to the Bank and raised cash upon it at :3e per cent., thus pocketing per cent. on the whole operation. The hank thus got ten or twelve millions of the Loan, while the Chancellor of the Exchequer was paying interest to the slaveowners until the awards could be made out and the money paid to them. The Bank at this time had an immense sum of money on hand. Its deposits were increased from 9,000,0001. in March 1835, to 20,000,00o/. on the fitli of December in the same year. With this great command of money, the Bank discounted right and left to every- body on almost every description of eef•urity. In this way, they created a vast uNces: of cut renew. Gold began to leave the country; and in August last the Batik Directors began to "put on the screw," be re- fusing to discount bills from America. As to the conduct of the Joint Stock Banks, he read some returns to prove, that while the Bank of England wes discounting to such an enormous amount, the issues of those establi 1

.semente bad never inere.e•ed more than from 11,000,0001.

to ; the increase in the Bank of England issues being 7,00000/. There Wfli I/0 110111)t til t public credit had been injured, but it was not injured by the Joint Stock Banks : the Bank of Eng. and the Chancellor of the Exchequer were to blame for that. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer had interfered at the proper time, there would have been no necessity for raising the interest on Exchequer Bills to its present rate, by which the public would be a loser to the extent of 7ial,0001. Under these circumstances, he considered that to limit the inquiries of the Committee to the operations of the Joint Stock Banks would be futile; and he therefore moved, that the Com- mittee should direct their inquiries to the state of banking and of the circulating medium since December 1833.

Mr. 'WILLIAM WILLIAMS seconded Mr. Hume's amendment. Ile contended that the derangements of the currency now and in former times, were entirely owing to the inisc.nduet of the Bunk.

Mr. BORINSON oppmied the amendment. He considered that Joint Stock Banks which were merely banks of deposit, mieeht be left to themselves, Cut that when they issued mites, they should be controlled by the Legislature. It would be very poseible to derive advantage from the inquiries of the Committee if they were limited to the Joilit Szuck Banks; but nobody could tell when all inquiry would terininate which should embrace the whole system of banknig and curreitcy in the Country; and to that extent Mr. Hume's proposal went. Besides, he did not think the Committee competent to grapple with sue): a subject. As regarded the bill of 1819, he did not object to it, but the measure for abolishing the one-pound notes was most injurious ; and he thogght that perhaps Parliament might deem it right to allow the reissue of notes of that denomination in England, as they now circulated in SeOt7 land and Ireland.

Mr. GISBORNE preferred Mr. Humes motion to Mr. Rice's ; but he should move the previous question, as he utterly denied the utility of any inquiry, with a view to legislation, into the management of the Joint Stock Banks. He had most carefully read all the evidence of ' the Committee of last session, and be found in it no just ground of - imputation on the system of joint stock banking. It should be recol- lected that the system was yet in its infancy ; let it have time to gain

experience, and let not the Legislature interfere and try to make them wise by Act of Parliament. One inch of the wisdom gained by expe- rience was worth fifty fathom of act of Parliament wisdom. Mr. Gis- borne went through the various recommendations of the Committee of last session, and contended that they were either impracticable, useless, or - absurd. The same gentlemen were to be reappointed, and we might expect them to recommend measures in conformity with their •

suggestions ; and this was sufficient to satisfy him that no good would arise from a continuance of their labours. It Was amnutimig to look over the questions put by those gentlemen who

were going to instruct the men of business how to manage their baekieg affairs. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was horrified

at the idea of a person in Newcastle having an agency in Cornwall, and cireedating notes there. With " infantine simplicity," he seemed to think that Cornwall would be deluged with notes payable at Newcastle. Now, though the Newcastle agent would get out one fiveliound note, he never would get out a second ' - for the person who took his five- powel note would go to a Cornwall banker to get it caehed ; the banker • would hand him over a slip of paper with sundry charges for commis- • sion and postages, and -11. 16s., instead of 31. Would the Newcastle man get rd of more of his notes which were liable to such deductions ? •

Yet the Chancellor of the Exchequer had actually hammered at this poiet in six different questions. Mr. Gieborne referred to the extra- 0th; eery profits of two joint stock banks, to prove that the system was goea ; but as to the Legislatme instructing men how to work that sys- tem, it was quite absurd. Ile should therefore move the previous

question ; but if his motion were rejected, he would support that of Ali.. Hume • for it was most unfair to cast a stigma on the Joint Stock B eeks, while the real delinquent, the Bank of England, was suffered to eecape.

11E. VILLIERS was opposed to the Parliamentary interference with the business of individuals ; and was perewided that all the nostrums

of Mr. C lay and others for improving the Joint Stock Banks would fail.

Mr. Wennunros taid, that as the object of the Committee was simply inquiry, and that legislation was not proposed, 31r. Gisborne

had misled the House by his speech,—which went entirely to prove the evils of legislation, not of inquire. lie consideied that to extend the inquiry in the manner proposed by Mr. Hume, would create alarm —the greatest possible evil at the present time. The time would come, and shortly, when the conduct of the Bank of England must be the subject of Parliamentary inquiry; but at present he was opposed op such iuquiry.

Mr. THOMAS BARING was in fevour of continuing, the inquiry into Joint Stuck Banks, but no further. It shoeld he remembered, that

while the Bank of England was :in old establishment, in which the eountry hod confidence, the joint stock banking syetion was merely au experiment. With regard to the late deraugement in the cur.. reney, it had been partially effected by the alteration in the Mint regulations of the United States; anti it was a serious matter for consideration, whether that measure should not he counteracted by

a similar one in this country. 31r. Spring Rice had conmatulated himeelf on the warning he laid given the country last session : but if he had acted with caution, as well as preached caution—if he had funded Exchequer Bills—he would have done fer more service to the country.

Mr. CLAY defended the reappointment of the Committee.

Mr. Parnsoe; declared, that whenever Parliament should reeolve to institute an inquiry into the conduct of the Bank of England, the Directors would give every information without reserve ; and, he MIS sure, they would make good their defence against all charges.

3Ir. CAYLEY WaS COIWilletd, that by an alicratiun of the standind. - only could a relief from the present difficulties be obtained.

Mr. O'Coxxer.r. strongly advocated inquiry ; but it was absurd to ex( Lade the Bunk of England; and it was still more daugerous than - absurd to do so on the gromel that inquiry was dangerous. He did not blame the Bank. The Directors were like the animal dissected by Majendie, whose nose was fastened to a plank during the process : the Dire:tors were forced to pay iii gold—this was the plank to which - their noses were nailed, while the public dissected them.

Mr. Citeweroan said, that the instances cited by Mr. Gisborne to prove the success of joint stock banking, demonstrated its danger. Such enormous profits could never be made on a safe system of bank Mg.

Mr. Poul.r.er Titomeox supported the motion, but as a friend of the Joint Stock Banks. They had resisted the late pressure exceedingly

well : and he was sure that inquiry would not injure them. But if Mr. flume's amendment were adopted, there would be an almost illi-

mitable field of inquiry opened. 1. on, banking, currency, would all become subjects of investigation; am: no practical advantage could be expected front the labours of the Committee.

Sir Ronnter PEEL considered it of the utmost importanee flea i7 should be decided without delay, whether Parliament would or would ' not interfere with the Joiet Stock Banks. Nothing. therefor:, ehauld- le: dot e which would tool to protract the sitting of the Committee.

He contended that Parliament had all moloulned right to ieterlere. Mr. tiisbarecs a:.,!.tinielit, went too fur ; for if all imurftrelice were absurd. theme 1.4m Id be no reesott why hank-notes of half-n•erown value • shoo1.1 tot be is-u, d. The transactiens of the Northern and Central • Beek were not to he put on the same footing as a ba.:gain between in- dividuals aliont sugar or tobacco. Ile had not so nuich confidence in the wisdom of the Joint Stock Baekers as Mr. Gishorne had- t' Lee-the-Howe look at -the Repees-of -the-Cosaruistee of last year. They would there isee an account of a bank, the directors of which had made a large dividend of profits fora course:of years, and although they knew that there were agreat many bad debts on the hooka of the company, they never deducted those debts from their calculation, but made their annual dividend of profits as if those debts were bond fide assets. The facilities enjoyed by the directors of Joist Stock Banks to act in that manner were facilities granted to them by Act Palliament; Parliament wag therefore entitled to inquire into the man. aser ia which such facilities had been used. The moment that Parliament gave to any body of persons virtually a Monopoly, legal or practical, that moment Varliament acquired a right to inquire into the conduct of those by whom that Monopoly was enjoyed, and to iiseertain the expediency or inexpediency of its continuance. The honourable gentleman who proposed an universal inquiry into the state and conduct of the Bunk of England, should recollect, that, so far as the relations between the Bank of England and Government were concerned, a laborious Parliamentary investigation had taken place three years ago, the /esti! t of which was the renewal of the Bank charter. No man now proposed that the Bank charter should be revised. Why then enter into the universal inquiry ? But the lion.e had a perfect right to see how the conduct of the Bank of England affected the p aticular subject which was to be submitted to 'the examination of the proposed Committee. It was impossible with justice to exclude from the inquiry of the Committee any relations subsisting between the Bank of England and Jana Stock Banks. If, for instance, it were alleged by the Directors of any Joint Stock Bank that the conduct of the Bank of England hail been the cause of any evil which they bad suffered, it would be impossible for the Committee to resist entering into an inquiry as to the rela-

• (ions between that Joint Stock Blink and the Bank of England. Why, the very

authority given to Joint Stock Bulks to pay their notes in Bank of England paper instead of gold, was a .uliject which (whether profitable to the Bank of Xngland or not) could not he excluded from the investigations of the Com- mittee. The Committee were bound to ascertain the effects of that permission ; they were bound to ameert:tin whether it had had a tendency to diminish the cvil of a crisis, or whether time evil which it created of a fluctuation in the value ad money preponderated.

. On these grounds, he should vote with the Chancellor of the Ex- chequer.

Mr. WAKLEY supported Mr. Home's amendment.

Mr. SPRING RICE quoted several passages from his speeches last session, in reply to the taunt of Mr. Baring that his caution had not been sufficiently earnest. Ile utterly disclaimed hostility to the Joint Stock Banks in his present motion. He knew that the system gua- ranteed the public from loss ; but he considered that it might be better regulated. He defended the inquiry on the same grounds as Sir Robert Peel.

The House divided : for the original motion, 121; against it, 42; majority, 79.

THE ABOLITION OF IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT.

Sir JOHN CAMPBELL. on Monday, moved the House of Commons for leave o bring in a bill to abolish Imprisonment for Debt, except in cases of fraud, and to facilitate the recovery of just debts. He briefly explained, that in some particulars the bill differed from the measure of last session ; principally, inasmuch as it did not meddle with speedy judgments, bills of exchange, and book-debts, and that the penal clauses of the other bill were left out. The great object of the present measure was to give a direct remedy against the property and take away the improper remedy against the person of the debtor.

Mr. RICHARDS Spoke for smile time in reprobation of the bill of lust session ; and said, it wits knavishly drawn up, in order to give Minis- ters what Mr. Roebuck said they most desired—patronage. It was also intended to undertidae the landed Aristocracy.

Mr. EWART was surprised to hear Mr. Richards say that the inten- tion of the bill was to undermine the Aristocracy, when it only went to make them pay their debts ; and he was also surprised to hear knavery imputed to the honourable person who had drawn up the bill.

lilt. RICHARDS denied that he bad used the word "knavish." (Cries tf " Knavish, knavish ! "from the Ministerial benches.) He had only said that the bill was knavishly drawn up. (Lend laughter.) Mr. EwAter would give Mr. RICHARDS the benefit of his variation ; and would ask whether " knavishly " did it imply a knavish animus? Mr. RICHARDS-4' I explained the enjoins."

/11r. EwanT—" Yes, the animus of a knave."

Mr. PEMBERTON made sonic remarks on the great increase of arrears in the Court of Chancery ; and then leave was given to bring in the bill.

0. PRIVILEGE DE THE HOUSE OF COMMONS PRINTERS.

Mr. BERNAL, on Monday, presented a petition from Messrs. Hansard, printers to the House of Commons, for the protection of the House in an action for libel brought against them by Mr. J. J. Stockdale. The petitioners said, that in a deport on the state of Prisons, sundry pri- soners were found reading obscene books printed by Stockdale ; and that the said Stockdale had brought an action against them in the Court of King's Bench, laying his damage first at 1,000/. and after- wards at 20,000/. Tiny had been advised to plead as their justifica- tion, that they were printers to the House of Commons ; but the Court of King's Bench, had ordered that plea to be struck out. Mr. Bernal Moved that the petition be referred to the Committee on Privileges.

The SPEAKER said, that he had been applied to by Messrs. Hansard in this matter, but hail refused to interfere. He found, on reference to the reports, that when an action had been brought against the Speaker and the Sergeant-at. Arms, the Court seemed to think that the authority of the House might be pleaded in defence of the action but the plea should be made so as to bring that question directly and dis- tinctly before the Court.

Mr. JOHN CAMPBELL explained, that the Court of King's Bench meant no disrespect to the House, but had struck out the plea as wholly unnecessary, seeing that the defendants could have given the matter of it in evidence under the plea of the general issue.

Mr. O'CONNELL thought that the learned judge had taken a most inconvenient course. If the plea had not been struck out, the point could have been decided without a trial, whether the plea amounted to a justification or not. Mr. WYNN was of opinion that the plea should not have been oveuuled, and that the House must protect the printer. Mr. Comas FERGUSSON- said, tha-patitioners.shotark,hage .pleaded.. a justification, and not the general issue.. Sir ROBERT PEEL wished the House to take no steps, in the matter till they had the decision of the Court of King's Bench.

Sir WILLIAM FOLLETT agreed with the suggestion of Sir Robert Peel. The House .should not interfere unless the course of. law ran counter to the orders of the House.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL, said that the House- did no more than it, duty in ordering the publication of the Report in question; and he

hoped there would be a general agreement that the House should protect those who made publication of documents under its authority. After a few observations from Mr. Ronaucx and Mr. WYNN, the petition was ordered to lie on the table.

MISCELLANEOUS SUBJECTS.

TRADE WITH POETUGAL: RUSSIAN AGGRESSION. Lord. PAL. MERSTON stated on Monday, in reply to a question from Mr. ROBINSON, there the new Portuguese tariff was to come into operation on the 1st of April next. He thought it would be ruinous to the trade and reve- nue of Portugal, unless the Government of Portugal should alter and revise it, as it would turn commerce into contraband channels. He could not say what course Ministers would take, as the subject was under anxious consideration. He did not wish to allude to the impo- sition of retaliatory duties on Portuguese shipping.; but that must be resorted to, as soon as Government ascertained that the new duties were laid on British vessels. Lord PaLnerston also said, when ques- tioned by Mr. CiranLes. BULLER, that the King's Advocate was en- gaged in considering to what extent the question of national rights was involved in the recent capture of the Vixen by a Russian vessel of war, off the Circassian coast.

ASSISTANCE TO THE QUEEN OF SPAIN. Lord PALMERSTON then said, that be had assented last week to motion of Mr. Maclean relative to the quantity of stores and ammunition and the number of men and vessels sent to Spain : he had since found that it would be inconvenient to furnish all the returns, as the Admiralty had a rule not to make pub- lic the amount of force despatched to any quarter. He now hoped that Mr. Maclean would permit him to move the discharge of so much of the order as related to the ships and men. He was quite ready to admit, however, that certain officers, Artillerymen, and Engi- neers, had been sent to Spain, if Mr. Maclean had any argument to found on the admission. Mr. AIACLEAN said, that the want of the return would be a serious impediment to him ; but, especially- after what had fallen from Lord Palmerston, he did not wish to occasion any inconvenience to the Government. Ou Tuesday night, just before the House rose after the Irish Corporation debate, the objectionable part of the order was discharged, on the motion of Lord Palmerston.

TIMBER DUTIES. In answer to a question by Mr. HUME, on Mon- day, Mr. POULETT THOMSON could say nothing respecting an altera- tion in the Timber-duties at present ; as it must depend upon ques- tions of general policy, and the state of the revenue.

FICTITIOUS VOTES. After a brief discussion, on Monday, on the motion of Mr. HORSMAN, the following gentlemen were named as members of the Committee for inquiring into the practice of creating Fictitious Votes in the Scotch Counties, Mr. HORSMAN observed that, as matter of delicacy, he had not put upon the Committee any Members whose agents had been employed in procuring the registry of fictitious votes.

Mr. Mormon, Sir W. Rae, the Lord .Advocate, Lord Stanley, Sir Thomas Fremantle, Mr. Warburton, Mr. Fox Maule, Mr. George Ferguson, Mr. Dunlop, Mr. Bingham Bariog, the O'Connor Don, Sir Hugh Campbell, Mr. E. Buller, Lord Viscount Storinont, Mr. Walter Campbell.

The following gentlemen were placed on the Irish Committee ap- pointed for the same purpose.

Lord Granville Somerset, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Lefroy, Mr. O'Connell, Mr. Hamilton, Mr. Sergeant Ball, Mr. Sergeant Jackson, Mr. More O'Ferrall, Mr. Emerson Tennent, Mr. Ayshford Sanford, Mr. Milnec. Gashell, Mr. Strutt, Mr. Hogg, Mr. Charles Villiers, and Sir Robert Ferguson.

VOTERS REGISTRATION BILL. Sir JOHN CAMPBELL, in moving on Monday for leave to bring in a bill to provide for the better Regis- tration of 'Voters, said that the bill would be found to be strictly a re- gistration bill ; that the number of Assistant Barristers would be re- duced to eight or ten, forming a permanent Court ; and that change of residence during the year should not affect the right to vote of a regis- tered elector.—Leave given.

PETITiONS. In both Houses, numerous petitions have been pre- sented dating the week for the abolition of Church.rates. In the House of Peers, these petitions were presented almost exclusively by Lord BROUGHAM, who has attended for that purpose every night but Wednesday, when the Peers did not sit.